Nelson Mandela

Well , as usual, the political divides become all too clear…

Not something you yourself are ever guilty of then? 😉

Perhaps he was, initially, a necessary evil. And later, a testament to the ability of people to change.

He did good and bad, but whatever people think of him, he was a significant man, who effected change in ways most people could only dream of.

RIP.

Well , as usual, the political divides become all too clear.

Anyone who lumps Nelson Mandela in with Hitler Stalin etc. has clearly missed the point to an almost embarrassing level. My point was directed at Snapper who chose to provoke a reaction by his first post. His subsequent post then went to explain why he said what he said. What a shame he didn’t post that in the first place.

Nelson Mandela was not perfect and the vast majority of people recogize this. This is may be part of his appeal to many.
He served time for crimes he committed, albeit charges set by the apartheid regime, and unusually for a politician, recognized the error of his ways. Would that any our current government would be man enough to stand and admit that they might be wrong? To simply brush away Nelson Madela’s legacy by simply calling him a “terrorist” is missing the whole point of the last 20 years of his life and somewhat insulting to the many whose lives were saved by the largely peaceful transition to democracy in South Africa.

Many will be mourning his loss and never a truer word spoken in jest….

Perhaps truer than we realize,34755/

You will not often see me defending a politician LOL but…..as a counterpoint to the above post and purely as devils advocate here….

Mandela’s biographer Rick Stengel said a decisive moment for South Africa came three years after his release from prison when Chris Hani, a popular leader of the African National Congress, was murdered by an apartheid supporter.

Hani’s assassination came at the moment that the ANC was negotiating with South African President Frederik Willem de Klerk’s white-minority apartheid government on the terms of the transition to majority rule.

After Hani’s murder, Mandela went on the state-run national television network to tell his country, “We must not permit ourselves to be provoked by people who seek to deny us the very freedom for which Chris Hani gave his life.”

Mandela “went on television in South Africa that night — rather than de Klerk — and showed that he was the father of the nation,” Stengel said. “He was so calm in a crisis and he rose to that. And he said later that was when South Africa was on the knife edge of a civil war, right then, that was the most perilous moment in their modern history.”

In 1990 de Klerk’s government had released Mandela from prison unconditionally after nearly 28 years and de Klerk’s government made the dismantling of the apartheid regime its official policy

In 1993, the Nobel Peace Prize was awarded jointly to Mandela and de Klerk “for their work for the peaceful termination of the apartheid regime, and for laying the foundations for a new democratic South Africa.”

Africa is a different mess to the mess we have in europe and my belief is that he (probably) did the best he could in the circumstances !

A piece of good advice, especially when someone dies, is , if you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything at all.

Does that also apply to Stalin, Hitler, Charlie Manson, Mao & Jeff Darmer etc?

He had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilizing terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed.

Crimes of Terrorist Nelson Mandela

Read here the crimes of the clever terrorist Nelson Mandela (most have never heard of, denied the opportunity by the treacherous liberal media) and understand why Amnesty International never accepted him as a political prisoner. Even as the world finally woke up to how wicked Winnie Mandela is, we must face reality about how dangerous and deceitful Nelson Mandela has been.

The fact is that even Amnesty International refused to take on Nelson Mandela’s case because they asserted that he was no political prisoner but had committed numerous violent crimes and had had a fair trial and a reasonable sentence.

Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. He had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilizing terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists.

South African President P.W. Botha had, on a number of occasions, offered Nelson Mandela freedom from prison, if he would only renounce terrorist violence. This Mandela refused to do. – Invictus Idolatry

* The full list of munitions and charges read as follows:

• One count under the South African Suppression of Communism Act No. 44 of 1950, charging that the accused committed acts calculated to further the achievement of the objective of communism;

• One count of contravening the South African Criminal Law Act (1953), which prohibits any person from soliciting or receiving any money or articles for the purpose of achieving organized defiance of laws and country; and

• Two counts of sabotage, committing or aiding or procuring the commission of the following acts:

1) The further recruitment of persons for instruction and training, both within and outside the Republic of South Africa, in:

(a) the preparation, manufacture and use of explosives—for the purpose of committing acts of violence and destruction in the aforesaid Republic, (the preparation and manufacture of explosives, according to evidence submitted, included 210,000 hand grenades, 48,000 anti-personnel mines, 1,500 time devices, 144 tons of ammonium nitrate, 21.6 tons of aluminum powder and a ton of black powder);

(b) the art of warfare, including guerrilla warfare, and military training generally for the purpose in the aforesaid Republic;

(ii) Further acts of violence and destruction, (this includes 193 counts of terrorism committed between 1961 and 1963);

(iii) Acts of guerrilla warfare in the aforesaid Republic;

(iv) Acts of assistance to military units of foreign countries when involving the aforesaid Republic;

(v) Acts of participation in a violent revolution in the aforesaid Republic, whereby the accused, injured, damaged, destroyed, rendered useless or unserviceable, put out of action, obstructed, with or endangered:

(a) the health or safety of the public;
(b) the maintenance of law and order;

(c) the supply and distribution of light, power or fuel;
(d) postal, telephone or telegraph installations;
(e) the free movement of traffic on land; and
(f) the property, movable or immovable, of other persons or of the state.

Source: The State v. Nelson Mandela et al, Supreme Court of South Africa, Transvaal Provincial Division, 1963-1964, Indictment.

The truth has been out for years, Linc…….nothing new……as I said above the bigger the hero the harder the fall so the digging for the dirt we don’t know about is already begun. Bizarre!

The truth will out John, like it or not.for some.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

Re 72

In the event that you hadn’t noticed, there is a bit of re-balancing and re-adjustment going on here and rightly so.

A piece of good advice, especially when someone dies, is , if you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything at all.

A good point.
The EDL, NF etc etc would actually keep their blood pressures at healthier levels if they bit their collective tongues and let the people on social media pay their respects.
By posting the usual predictable diatribe they are actually prolonging the discussion and I suspect their own frustration.
The tribute threads will run their natural course a lot quicker if you keep your views to yourself, it’s an argument you will never win.

Indeed so Baz – 100 years of colonisation and 50 years of self governance has changed almost nothing. Tribal, ethnic and religious loyalties are still the predominant influences.

Also depends on who you are comparing him to !
One just has to look at most of the rest of the African Leaders !!
I mentioned mugabe previously – he is a terrible dictator who cares not for his people (with the exception of a few).As far as I am aware – no african leader has ever publically berated ebagum or any other african dictator !
SA is a mineral rich country and can well afford to have well equipped forces,sure they could spend more on other stuff but one could also lay that allegation against our EU Juggernaught which is a collossal squanderer of money.
As I also said previously – the older Mandela I did admire but I have never put him up on a pedastal – nobody is perfect !
Perhaps worth remembering that africa is still strongly tribal and (say) certainly in zimbabwe – if one belongs to the wrong tribe then your life is worth nothing (actually its not worth that much if you belong to the correct tribe with the exception of mugabes henchmen)

I’m not sure where this is heading. There is no dispute about Mandela’s early life nor any mystery about it. In terms of his life since his release there is little to deny his achievements or his impact on global politics.
Politics is as much about perception as reality and I am sure there will be objective analysis of his life in the weeks and months to come.
Heroes are always set for a fall and he will be no exception. For now a universally loved elder statesman has died and is being duly honoured.

Well, regardless of all the flak I will no doubt get……………………………SINNER.

Jim.
Lincoln .7

Just about what I pointed out in #32, but not in so much detail.

Sinner or Saint?? I know what I think….:apologetic:

Jim.
Lincoln .7

Thats why I put the detail up JimR:D

A bit of both, in my opinion.

But, as John Green points out, you’ll hardly hear of the deeply unpleasant things Nelson Mandela orchestrated, of which he himself admits, in this orgy of beatification for sainthood.

A bit inconvenient too, is the video of Nelson Mandela singing this song after he was released from prison.
It’s hardly a song of reconciliation….

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcOXqFQw2hc

Just about what I pointed out in #32, but not in so much detail.

Sinner or Saint?? I know what I think….:apologetic:

Jim.
Lincoln .7

Re 62 and 63

On behalf of all the agnostics and sceptics of the Mandela bandwagon, thank you for shining a light into the murk.

Mandela’s government announced in November 1998 that it intended to purchase 28 BAE/SAAB JAS 39 Gripen fighter aircraft from Sweden at a cost of R10.875 billion, i.e. R388 million (about US$65 million) per plane. Clearly, the all-powerful air armadas of Botswana weighed heavily on the minds of South African leaders…

The purchase was a Thank You for various Swedish governments direct funding of the ANC.

Even though the criminality of a lot of the ANC’s actions were well known.

Bombing of innocent civilians in public spaces, and the Quatro Camp where ANC volunteers were themselves tortured and murdered.

One wonders why the Swedes chose to exclusively fund such a movement, to the extend of ignoring more moderate organisations who had the same goal of ending apartheid.

One would also wonder what any states reaction would be toward a government directly funding an organisation planting bombs in shopping centres, public streets, and pubs.

Perhaps what happened to Olaf Palme was hardly surprising….

For those of you that can’t or won’t look at dr Strangloves backbenchers link here it is.
3 Things You Didn’t (Want To) Know About Nelson Mandela
Lee Jenkins June 27, 2013 671

The hero of the anti-apartheid struggle was not the saint we want him to be.

The image of Nelson Mandela as a selfless, humble, freedom fighter turned cheerful, kindly old man, is well established in the West. If there is any international leader on whom we can universally heap praise it is surely he. But get past the halo we’ve placed on him without his permission, and Nelson Mandela had more than a few flaws which deserve attention.

He signed off on the deaths of innocent people, lots of them

Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilising terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists. Here are some highlights

-Church Street West, Pretoria, on the 20 May 1983
-Amanzimtoti Shopping complex KZN, 23 December 1985

-Krugersdorp Magistrate’s Court, 17 March 1988

-Durban Pick ‘n Pay shopping complex, 1 September 1986

-Pretoria Sterland movie complex 16 April 1988 – limpet mine killed ANC terrorist M O Maponya instead

-Johannesburg Magistrate’s Court, 20 May 1987

-Roodepoort Standard Bank 3 June, 1988

Tellingly, not only did Mandela refuse to renounce violence, Amnesty refused to take his case stating “[the] movement recorded that it could not give the name of ‘Prisoner of Conscience’ to anyone associated with violence, even though as in ‘conventional warfare’ a degree of restraint may be exercised.”

As President he bought a lot of military hardware

Inheriting a country with criminally deep socio-ecnomic problems, one might expect resources to be poured into redressing the imbalances of apartheid. Yet once in office, even Mandela’s government slipped into the custom of putting national corporatism, power and prestige above its people. Deputy Minister of Defence Ronnie Kasrils said in 1995 that the government’s planned cuts in defence spending could also result in the loss of as many as 90,000 jobs in defence-related industries.

Mandela’s government announced in November 1998 that it intended to purchase 28 BAE/SAAB JAS 39 Gripen fighter aircraft from Sweden at a cost of R10.875 billion, i.e. R388 million (about US$65 million) per plane. Clearly, the all-powerful air armadas of Botswana weighed heavily on the minds of South African leaders…

Not content with jets, in 1999 a US$4.8 billion (R30 billion in 1999 rands) purchase of weaponry was finalised, which has been subject to allegations of corruption. The South African Department of Defence’s Strategic Defence Acquisition purchased a slew of shiny new weapons, including frigates, submarines, corvettes, light utility helicopters, fighter jet trainers and advanced light fighter aircraft.

Below are some of the purchases made, presumably to keep the expansionist intentions of Madagascar at bay…

Description
Original Qty
Illustrative total cost

Corvettes
4
R4 billion

Maritime helicopter for corvettes
5
R1 billion

New submarines to replace Daphne
4
R5,5 billion

Alouette helicopter replacement
60
R2 billion

Advanced light fighter
48
R6-9 billion

Main Battle Tank replacement of Olifant
154
R6 billion

Total cost in 1998 Rand
R25-38 billion

Mandela was friendly with dictators

Despite being synonymous with freedom and democracy, Mandela was never afraid to glad hand the thugs and tyrants of the international arena.

General Sani Abacha seized power in Nigeria in a military coup in November 1993. From the start of his presidency, in May 1994, Nelson Mandela refrained from publicly condemning Abacha’s actions. Up until the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting in November 1995 the ANC government vigorously opposed the imposition of sanctions against Nigeria. Shortly before the meeting Mandela’s spokesman, Parks Mankahlana, said that “quiet persuasion” would yield better results than coercion. Even after the Nigerian government announced the death sentences against Saro-Wiwa and eight other Ogoni activists, during the summit, Mandela refused to condemn the Abacha regime or countenance the imposition of sanctions.

Two of the ANC’s biggest donors, in the 1990s, were Colonel Muammar Gaddafi of Libya and President Suharto of Indonesia . Not only did Mandela refrain from criticising their lamentable human rights records but he interceded diplomatically on their behalf, and awarded them South Africa ‘s highest honour. Suharto was awarded a state visit, a 21-gun salute, and The Order of Good Hope (gold class).

In April 1999 Mandela acknowledged to an audience in Johannesburg that Suharto had given the ANC a total of 60 million dollars. An initial donation of 50 million dollars had been followed up by a further 10 million. The Telegraph ( London ) reported that Gaddafi was known to have given the ANC well over ten million dollars.

The apartheid regime was a crime against humanity; as illogical as it was cruel. It is tempting, therefore, to simplify the subject by declaring that all who opposed it were wholly and unswervingly good. It’s important to remember, however, that Mandela has been the first to hold his hands up to his shortcomings and mistakes. In books and speeches, he goes to great length to admit his errors. The real tragedy is that too many in the West can’t bring themselves to see what the great man himself has said all along; that he’s just as flawed as the rest of us, and should not be put on a pedestal.

Reddit this article ↓

Again, I think Nelson Mandela acted very well once released, and played a large part in easing tensions.

It just should not be forgotten that Nelson Mandela was previously a man of violence, who’s actions caused great misery and loss to people, black and white.

This seems to have been forgotten in the orgy of eulogising.