Nigel rises again- Is this the second coming?

I don’t know why they always send a letter out, saying that the Winter Fuel payment should be in my bank account
within the next three or four weeks.

When it was paid in a fortnight previous.

So are you still suggesting that any government would deliberately attempt to keep the number of people who are unemployed just to ‘save’ money…..(or because they are evil)?

Because they are evil, obviously.

There are people who, when made unemployed, find a new job almost immediately whilst there are others who don’t have the knowhow or the confidence or have no idea what job they could go on to – these job clubs help all unemployed BUT they are especially good for the latter types. They need someone to help them with, for example, computer applications because, sometimes, they’ve just never used one. Or what to put on their CV or filling out an application form or helping them understand what the job requires.
At the job club (above) I met a man who was dyslexic and had no help what so ever from his adviser at the job centre, even after asking and being assured that he would get help. He was not stupid, there must have been plenty of opportunities for him because he had plenty of skills on his CV, but not being able to read properly meant he couldn’t work a computer or fill out an application form without assistance – which he was now getting.

Apart from the fact that unemployment costs the government a fortune, governments are judged on their unemployment figures, it would be completely counterproductive for any government to deliberately raise unemployment (excepting purely public sector (funded) employment which has a finite sustainability).

Deliberately? No, not deliberately…
If you tell a county council their budget is being reduced, even after jobs have been cut and savings made elsewhere, where do you think those savings are going to come from?
Lots of councils have cut funding from toddlers groups, OAP daycare, mentally and physically handicapped daycare (or whatever the new buzzword is), special needs groups, sponsorship of local clubs, as well as job clubs that used to receive funding from the council. I know of one remembrance parade that only took place because two council roadmen came in on their day off to put up barriers and operate the road closure by the memorial – previously their bosses had put it down as part of the days roster but what with cutbacks…
Government makes demands but leaves others to sort out the requirements.

Government incompetence is a very different matter (from government actually being evil)!

Really.

I don’t necessarily agree with the way that these programmes have been implemented but it does kind of make it hard to believe that the government is:

The Work Programme is a ticking boxes exercise.
I (bravely!) asked a couple of long term unemployed neighbours about it this morning and their response was ‘waste of time’. They go in, discuss what jobs they’ve applied for, discuss what replies they got to previous applications, make an appointment for the following week. One of them got a place last spring on a group that had been much reduced in staff numbers and computers: previously staff helped with making CVs and assisted with using a computer to find a job, and they kept track of what was happening, then the staff numbers dropped from about eleven to three and he was told he could come in and use a computer to search although he might have to wait, and his appointments with an adviser went from once a week to once every six weeks. If they wanted training they were directed to a local college where they could take English, Maths, and some computer admin courses – free. Anything else was to be paid for, although at reduced prices. Essentially they were on their own as far as looking for work goes.

Are you airborne again or just anticipating the return of that happy day?!!

I stand corrected, thank you; too much listening to OAPs on Radio 5, I think.

Of course there is the possibility that they use it to buy a few tins of kitty chunks for Tibbles or another bottle of gin instead…;o)

Personally I use it for its intended purpose and buy winter fuel with it.

This is dispensed direct from the bowser at Old Buckenham into my wing tanks

Moggy

Which is cheaper – pay benefits to the unemployed and have people moan about scrounging…

So are you still suggesting that any government would deliberately attempt to keep the number of people who are unemployed just to ‘save’ money…..(or because they are evil)?

Apart from the fact that unemployment costs the government a fortune, governments are judged on their unemployment figures, it would be completely counterproductive for any government to deliberately raise unemployment (excepting purely public sector (funded) employment which has a finite sustainability).

I visited such a job club last year which was run by a coupe of retired ladies and an ex navy officer – all volunteers – who all had experience in the careers field who were doing a marvellous job with the unemployed and had a fantastic success rate at getting people back into work; but the club was closed in the summer when local government decided they could no longer afford to organise the power, computers or accommodation for them…

Government incompetence is a very different matter (from government actually being evil)!

The problem here is probably one of different government, and local government, budgets; one government department ‘saves’ money to meet a target (set by government) but, in the process, causes greater expenditure to be accounted for by another department.

Various governments have been talking about ‘joined-up-government’ (or joined-up-thinking) for decades but obviously there is still some way to go!

As for saving money…

“The Work Programme is part of the government’s answer: a £5bn scheme aimed at helping long term unemployed people back to work.”

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/legacy/ouch/2013/01/the_great_disability_scam_as_t.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28113516

I don’t necessarily agree with the way that these programmes have been implemented but it does kind of make it hard to believe that the government is:

“…keeping the unemployed out of work…..to save money.”

‘Keep the unemployed out of work’…..are you serious?

Does the government also live in a massive castle on top of a high mountain that’s surrounded by impenetrable thorn bushes? Do they have cellars full of gold coins that they’ve stolen from simple folk that live in the shires…

(Local government does in Hampshire…!)

Which is cheaper – pay benefits to the unemployed and have people moan about scrounging, or organise a group for them to get together with a couple (or more) of focused and knowledgable individuals who can help and assist those who need or want the help?
I visited such a job club last year which was run by a coupe of retired ladies and an ex navy officer – all volunteers – who all had experience in the careers field who were doing a marvellous job with the unemployed and had a fantastic success rate at getting people back into work; but the club was closed in the summer when local government decided they could no longer afford to organise the power, computers or accommodation for them. The outlay was already accounted for and there were no wages to pay out so the cost was effectively minimal, so now those unemployed who would have benefitted from attending are having to do it by themselves – and some of them are just not equipped to do that, and probably never will be.

Poisoned apples are undoubtedly against some H&S regulation, but I shall let someone else come up with the page and paragraph number.

Just to clarify. Winter Fuel Payment does not depend on any temperature being reached and is paid to all pensioners automatically. The Cold Weather Payment is an addition paid to the vulnerable pensioners when the winter weather is very cold.

I stand corrected, thank you; too much listening to OAPs on Radio 5, I think.
Of course there is the possibility that they use it to buy a few tins of kitty chunks for Tibbles or another bottle of gin instead…;o)

Re 77

Don’t teach Grandma…… (If you want the full quote I’ll oblige)

See the Rules of the Forum on the use of quotes.

I saw the rules, and they said:

If you want to post replies to multiple posts you can select them by clicking the multi quote button . This button will change to indicate that you’ve selected it. Clicking post reply will then bring you to the full editor with all the posts quoted.

Nothing about using some idiosyncratic syntax to refer to individual posts. Maybe back in the mists of time this forum had a BBS-style layout that lacked the functionality to allow the quoting of posts, but the rules seem pretty clear here. There may be an argument that it makes things easier for the mods by forbidding quoting, therefore they only have to delete a single instance of a dodgy post, but I see nothing in the rules. Perhaps you should read the rules yourself, before adopting such a patronising tone.

You don’t understand the use of the noun ‘syntax’.

Wrong again. Now I appreciate this will all be a bit ‘past your time’, but surely you’ve encountered the concept of computer programming? Maybe not!

Syntax (n)
Computers – The grammatical rules and structural patterns governing the ordered use of appropriate words and symbols for issuing commands, writing code, etc., in a particular software application or programming language.

Computer Science – The rules governing the formation of statements in a programming language.

Keep up!

I am sorry, but I do not sign up to the a vote for UKIP is a vote for Labour, that is just a sign of a party being worried… Very worried.

.

Not just one party being very worried.

The single objective of withdrawing from the EU to make everything in the UK better is very simplistic and naive is it not?

Good luck with that.

.. despite the fact that OAPs cannot all afford to heat their homes when it is not quite cold enough for winter fuel benefit to kick in

Just to clarify. Winter Fuel Payment does not depend on any temperature being reached and is paid to all pensioners automatically. The Cold Weather Payment is an addition paid to the vulnerable pensioners when the winter weather is very cold.

Moggy

Re 64

Waco, this is for you and your ‘crocodile’ tears concerning the ‘poor, poverty stricken and down trodden masses’.

During 2008, a report was published by the OECD (Organisation for Economic Co-operation & Development) which highlighted the remarkable decline in poverty over the previous eight years.

“The poor have been getting richer more rapidly that the rich since 2000” it stated. You’ll no doubt be quick to see that it was our beloved former Prime Minister, Mr. Blair who was in charge for most of that period.

Nigel would have made a far smarter PM, by the very least, not toadying to the American Govt., by embroiling us in Iraq and Afghanistan with unrealistic expectations of gaining revenge for the Twin Towers and the London bombings.

Britain is seen as a rich country today, despite the need for food banks and soup kitchens, despite the fact that OAPs cannot all afford to heat their homes when it is not quite cold enough for winter fuel benefit to kick in, when job clubs and other unemployed assistance groups are being closed to save money and keep the unemployed out of work…

‘Keep the unemployed out of work’…..are you serious?

Does the government also live in a massive castle on top of a high mountain that’s surrounded by impenetrable thorn bushes? Do they have cellars full of gold coins that they’ve stolen from simple folk that live in the shires…

…oh, and you forgot the part where they killed the princess with that poisoned apple! :rolleyes:

Snafu – your quote simply makes my point. My wife born in Barnsley between the wars- just- grew up with firsthand knowledge of the hardships of life in a typical working class town of that time. Life in Barnsley was replicated over the whole country in the working class areas of towns and cities.

Life in Barnsley is thankfully very different now.

Ohh and Charlie, I can speak for myself thank you.

You just did.

In 1975 we voted in a referendum to remain a part of the European Economic Community. Whilst it is true to say that “we” have not voted to be in the EU as it is now constituted neither have we directly voted for 99% of the legislation passed by the governments of the day. We do not have the Swiss system here but elect governments to legislate in our names.

In fact there were no referendums before 1975 so it is a very recent but infrequently used process.

We must, of course, remember that the Liberal-Democrats didn’t win the last general election…

Nobody did, really. The Libs could just as easily gone in with Labour so that the Tories were the opposition. Now that would make Johnny-boy foam at the mouth.

# 68 – Precisely so and if anyone seriously believes that the the UK is a worse place to live in now than it was 50/80 years ago then they are living in another world.

Indeed, but it is all relative. Here is part of a fascinating interview with a chap called Harry Leslie Smith, who was an RAF wireless operator during WWII, about his life:

What was it like growing up in Barnsley in interwar Britain?

I don’t know how you can sum it up because it was so brutal – there was no other word for it. I was born five years after the end of the first world war. That alone was a disaster that crippled soldiers. That’s the trouble with wars, too: after a war, the government doesn’t give a damn about the soldiers. There were guys with no arms or legs who were living under the same desperate circumstances as everyone else.

My elder sister died in the poorhouse at the age of six from tuberculosis. For a young kid, I think the worst part about it was – I just couldn’t keep up with my studies. For one thing, we couldn’t stay in the same place – I must have gone to at least six or seven schools by the time we’d finished hopping around because we couldn’t pay the rent here or something else. And then this job I had which took from after school until just about dark and on Saturdays. So I was just ******** by the time it came to weekends.

Do you remember your youth as a time of hunger?

Oh yes, absolutely. If you didn’t have a job, you didn’t have money; if you didn’t have money, you didn’t have food – that’s the whole point. That’s why I did this barrowboy job as a child. I got four shillings a week and managed to put a little bit more food into the house. I had a maths teacher – Froggie Dawson – he was a rather fattish man, with a corpulent body. I remember one time I hadn’t gone to school for a couple of days; it was in the winter, and the snow was on the ground, and so when I came back, at the end of the class, he made me stay behind, and demanded to know: “How come you were off school yesterday and the day before?” And I remember lifting up my shoe – and I had cardboard there for a base, and it was all soggy. So he said – go home now, get there as quick as you can, and see me after school tomorrow. So after school the next day, when all the others had gone, he reaches into his drawer for a pair of shoes. And they were a bit big but I knew I could stick some newspaper in the front, and I thanked him profusely [sobs]. We didn’t have any hope at all that I could remember, until after 1945. We just didn’t believe they were going to do anything about it, because we existed under such a cruel system for so long…

…You’ve told David Cameron to keep his “mitts” off the NHS. What would happen if the NHS was dismantled?

Then you’d be back to my early childhood when the rich could buy care and the rest of them had nothing. They either lived or died according to their genes or their strength or will or something. It’s not fair. I think everyone has the right to his life and to live it to the best of his ability. To even think we could live without an NHS is just unbelievable to me, and I think it’s about time governments really worked to fund it properly, even at the expense of getting some of these rich people paying more taxes.

What’s your fear about the situation facing people in Britain today?

Even now I shudder to think what people are going through to feed their children. It’s so bloody unnecessary as far as I can see. It’s appalling. It’s all these zero hour contracts – how could the government allow something like that to even come into existence? You can’t take money from the average worker and not from the big businesses. The government hand everything out now to private companies – in the old days, the government used to be the ones who looked after everything. How the hell can you privatise water? It’s the basis of life.

What advice would you give to Ed Miliband?

I spoke with him at this year’s Labour conference and actually I told him – I said, you have a chance now to be a prime minister who will go down in history! But you have to assert yourself and you have to make it clear who you are and what you’re planning to do! But it didn’t seem to work. He said, “Yes, yes,” and patted my arm. And it’s true – anyone who came up now with a good plan to rule Britain could rule it for the next 20 years, because it’s at the stage where it can be saved and it could be saved.

What message would you give to my generation?

First of all, I would suggest that voting should be made compulsory, and until it is, what they have to do is get up off their arses and go to cast their vote. If they don’t like any of the people who are on the ballot, spoil the ballot! Spoiled ballots are counted too, they might not realise it – and if the government comes to power and finds only 37% of the people are voting for them and the rest are saying, “**** on you!” maybe there’ll be some changes.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/nov/24/harry-leslie-smith-nhs-great-depression-ed-miliband-advice

Britain is seen as a rich country today, despite the need for food banks and soup kitchens, despite the fact that OAPs cannot all afford to heat their homes when it is not quite cold enough for winter fuel benefit to kick in, when job clubs and other unemployed assistance groups are being closed to save money and keep the unemployed out of work.
At least we haven’t gone back to workhouses; not yet anyway, but give them time…

The only way that I will snuff it early is by drowning in a bog of your claptrap. If you want to join in with the ‘grown-ups’, try to be be sensible and less juvenile.

Which. essentially, means bow down before me, say and do nothing to displease me, do not question my wisdom since you are not worthy, and NEVER make a spelling mistake in any communication with me and expect me to take you seriously… Pompous, self important windbag. (Watch how he takes TonyT to task later for mixing up ‘non’ and ‘none’ – post 79 – although he might let him get away with it since they would both hate to be seen to spout a French word, no matter how silly it makes the sentence if you read it properly!!!)

Isn’t that right, Greeny?

I like the idea but, I think that a turd is much more in keeping

One of yours, or maybe ‘St’ Nigel would oblige?

You can reply to more than one post within a single post. Also, what is with the formatting here? Nobody uses the quote function when replying to a thread but uses the tedious ‘RE#’ syntax, yet you can make four or five concurrent posts?

It boosts his post rate. And he hates having to reply to just a small part of the post so he blats the whole lot and leaves you to figure out what on earth he is referring to…

Anyway, RE 74, ‘grown ups’ don’t fall for UKIP’s reactionary, paint-by-numbers guff, so take a leaf out of your own book.

Come on, have a little respect – he is in the grasp of political dementia and needs all the sympathy he can get. And don’t you know it it is Autumn – all his leaves have long left the branch…

Nigel would.

Yes, I’ve heard that it is written on the wall in the Ukip headquarters toilets. Tee, hee?

Are you really Snafu thinly disguised ?

I’ve had a quick look and come to the conclusion that I am not him, and he is not me. Not that that will satisfy you, but maybe if you ask me what number I’m thinking of and we’ll see if meddle can guess the right figure?

There are fundamental reasons that need to change in my eyes, the EU we voted to join was a Common Agricultural Scheme, that is what we voted to join, not this bloated overbearing mega state.

We live in a democracy, but are having our laws and legislation written by a none elected body, that is wrong, as a Sovereign Country we should have the right to determine our own laws, our own immigration policy and our own rights to deport who we deem unfit.

I am sorry, but I do not sign up to the a vote for UKIP is a vote for Labour, that is just a sign of a party being worried… Very worried.

Ohh and Charlie, I can speak for myself thank you.

Re 77

Don’t teach Grandma…… (If you want the full quote I’ll oblige)

See the Rules of the Forum on the use of quotes.

You don’t understand the use of the noun ‘syntax’.

Nigel would.

Are you really Snafu thinly disguised ?

You can reply to more than one post within a single post. Also, what is with the formatting here? Nobody uses the quote function when replying to a thread but uses the tedious ‘RE#’ syntax, yet you can make four or five concurrent posts?

Anyway, RE 74, ‘grown ups’ don’t fall for UKIP’s reactionary, paint-by-numbers guff, so take a leaf out of your own book.

RE 61

I like the idea but, I think that a turd is much more in keeping

Re 71

CD

You’re wasting your time and intellect on a Marxist dinosaur. This throwback to the days of Keir Hardie still views the world thru’ a focus on socialist/capitalist class warfare. A pint of bitter, a cloth cap and some pork scratchings and the pub tub thumper is off and away – again. At which point everyone disappears thru the nearest exit.

You cannot be serious !

I thought that your last sentence just about summarised matters as pithily as possible.