Nigel rises again- Is this the second coming?

Re 72

The only way that I will snuff it early is by drowning in a bog of your claptrap. If you want to join in with the ‘grown-ups’, try to be be sensible and less juvenile.

Re 60

Only when the likes of you weren’t around to demonstrate your ignorance and lack of education.

It’s a long, hard slog to the sunlit uplands which we may never reach, and competing politicians do the gullible amongst the elctorate no favours by holding out panacea solutions. They may well be sucked in, but only to become even more disillusioned later.

Nah, I reckon John will be dead by then. :very_drunk:

The Joseph Rowntree Foundation (JRF) says as many people in working families as in unemployed ones now live in poverty, after a decade of labour market upheaval which means a job is no longer a guarantee of an end to poverty.

Some 13 million people in the UK are classified as living in relative poverty – meaning their household income is below 60 per cent of the average…

‘Poverty’ very much depends on the definition you use and where you draw the lines of demarcation!

I’m not disputing that poverty and real hardship exists in the United Kingdom but as a ‘socialist’ presumably you abhor the demarcation line being drawn only around the United Kingdom? How does the ‘poverty’ in the United Kingdom stack-up if we use the Joseph Rowntree Foundation definition for poverty but include ‘average earnings’ for the whole world; I dare say that (miraculously) we will find that ‘poverty’ has been completely eradicated in the United Kingdom!

I’m not trying to ridicule you but clearly ‘less than 60% of average earnings’ isn’t a reasonable definition of poverty for the United Kingdom based on the world that we live in…

…in fact given, free education, free medical care for life, freedom from conflict, and all the other state sponsored benefits that everybody in the United Kingdom enjoys I hardly think ‘poverty’ is a word I would use so lightly.

I’m not trying to make light of this issue but if the JRF doesn’t think that ‘a job’ is a way out of ‘poverty’ then what exactly is their answer? And how do we make things like food, energy and housing ‘affordable’?

And given the number of people trying to get INTO the United Kingdom…

# 68 – Precisely so and if anyone seriously believes that the the UK is a worse place to live in now than it was 50/80 years ago then they are living in another world.

# 69 – Hasn’t the problem been that the influence Clegg has had over policy has far outweighed their seats in Parliament. But that was to preserve the coalition for 5 years – a decision much regretted with hindsight, and by many at the time as well.

Meanwhile, Nick Clegg has taught us one thing. That he would sell all his principles (if he ever had any) to acquire the Deputy Prime Minister title. He has, in a short period of time. Damaged forever a proud party with a proud history. His party will sink without trace in the next election…

We must, of course, remember that the Liberal-Democrats didn’t win the last general election…

…their party was a small part of a coalition government; Nick Clegg hardly ‘sold his principles’, he was just unable to sway government policy (much) based on the number of seats in government his party held (and that was not many).

THE combined wealth of the Cabinet is more than £70million, with Prime Minister David Cameron worth almost £4million. The current Conservative party is interested in one thing and one thing alone. Maintaining the status quo. That is keeping the rich, well rich and everyone else in the sh@t. They have no real interest in helping people outside their own sphere…

This is, of course, utter nonsense; it is the political equivalent of the ‘two minute hate’ (see 1984)!

If the Conservative party is only interested in maintaining the ‘status quo’ by oppressing everybody but their own small circle of rich friends then they presumably only plan to be able to do it until the next general election; what they are doing, like every party before them, is trying to stay in power, and that means helping most of the electorate, most of the time, so that come the election enough of them vote the way they want them to!

I’m sorry, but this argument that ‘it is all the fault of the rich’ and they can only stay rich by ‘robbing’ or ‘oppressing’ the poor is the oldest trick in the political play-book; seriously, you don’t do yourself any favours by regurgitating it.

In any society, there are always going to be many, many more (relatively) poor people than, rich people; simple logic will tell us that in a one-man-one-vote democracy this is the best way for anybody to collect votes. But despite various governments ‘pushing against this open door’ since about 1920, somehow, no party has managed to overthrow the ‘oppression’ of the ‘rich’ and eliminate ‘poverty’; why is that?

Why is it that anybody still believes that all our woes can be solved by simply putting a cross in a box every five years; even if all of us put our cross in the same box?

I am not sure that many or any do but that’s all we have.

Why is it that anybody still believes that all our woes can be solved by simply putting a cross in a box every five years; even if all of us put our cross in the same box?

And, no, it isn’t because our politicians are all: corrupt, selfish, arrogant, elitist, out of touch, only in it for themselves (and their friends), posh, gay, idiots, posh-gay-idiots, English, Scottish, Tories, white, black or foreign! Although they may be some or all of those things too…

…it is because solving all, or even most, of our problems is impossible (even if it was entirely within their power)!!!

Quite so.

All the ‘poverty in work’ stuff is a simple function of the mess left because Blair & Brown’s financially ill-advised policies coincided with a worldwide economic crash. No political party, despite what they tell you, can wave a magic policy broom (Mansion tax for Labour, Leave EU, Privatise NHS for Farage) and miraculously make everything better for everyone.

It’s a long, hard slog to the sunlit uplands which we may never reach, and competing politicians do the gullible amongst the elctorate no favours by holding out panacea solutions. They may well be sucked in, but only to become even more disillusioned later.

Moggy

One nugget to pick put of that – UK PLC is not of much interest to Labour and its fellow travellers – UK Gov and UK EU would better describe their belief in statism – both domestic and European.

And I totally disagree with your last paragraph expressing the sweeping anathema towards the political class. Of course there are bad eggs in the basket as there are in every walk of life but they are in the minority.

I must admit to being exceedingly concerned for the future.

As a lifelong labour supporter and proud socialist I despair at the current state of the Labour party and in particular its leadership. Although I believe Milliband possesses a keen and academic mind. I feel he lacks the vast majority of skills required to lead UK PLC. Further, how can I trust the judgement of a man who believes that Ed Balls should be Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Ramsay MacDonald must be turning in his grave.

Meanwhile, Nick Clegg has taught us one thing. That he would sell all his principles (if he ever had any) to acquire the Deputy Prime Minister title. He has, in a short period of time. Damaged forever a proud party with a proud history. His party will sink without trace in the next election.

THE combined wealth of the Cabinet is more than £70million, with Prime Minister David Cameron worth almost £4million. The current Conservative party is interested in one thing and one thing alone. Maintaining the status quo. That is keeping the rich, well rich and everyone else in the sh@t. They have no real interest in helping people outside their own sphere.

I would love at this point to go into considerable economic and social arguments to prove my point, but I’m going to save writing that book for another day.

HOWEVER….what really scares me is UKIP, The following is from an article in the Daily Torygraph…..It details some of UKIP’s policies

A Legalise handguns

B US Style NHS (Having worked and studied in the States I’ve seen this system destroy people and entire families, remember, most insurance companies will not cover preexisting medical problems )

C Speak English on trains …….heaven help us.

D Blow up wind farms

E Make friends with Vladimir Putin

F Bar HIV positive people from the UK

The UK is a very small country that cannot stand on its own in the world anymore. We simply are not strong enough economically. Ok our pharmaceutical industry is impressive and we still feature on the world stage when it comes to our aeronautical industries .
However, the majority of our wealth, rightly or wrongly comes from the “city” if we leave Europe, most of this pre-eminence will disappear double quick to New York and Frankfurt….along with the vast majority of foreign investors. From the Mail “Nissan boss warns of leaving UK if we quit EU despite praising firm’s ‘blessed’ Sunderland factory”

To paraphrase the man who saved this nation almost on his own (HCTD) if this country leaves the EU it “will involve the final, complete and irremediable defeat of this country.”

Goodness only knows where we go from here. I believe virtually all our politicians are only interested in obtaining and maintaining personal power, position and through these two, personal wealth. They are only interested in themselves and short term individual gain.

I really do fear for the future.

The Joseph Rowntree Foundation (JRF) says as many people in working families as in unemployed ones now live in poverty, after a decade of labour market upheaval which means a job is no longer a guarantee of an end to poverty.

Its annual report says the rise of part-time work and low-paid self-employment has been accompanied by a sharp increase in the number of under-25s living below the breadline as they struggle to cope with falling incomes, poor prospects and high costs from housing to food.

A lack of affordable housing also means those living in poverty are now as likely to be in private, usually rented, accommodation – at higher risk of eviction and homelessness – as in local authority or social housing. Some 13 million people in the UK are classified as living in relative poverty – meaning their household income is below 60 per cent of the average.

By contrast, pensioners have benefited from targeted policies, seeing a sharp fall in poverty to a record low level: from once being the most likely to be poor, the over-65s now have the lowest poverty rate of any age group.

The prevalence of zero hours contracts – of which there are now some 1.4 million – and part-time work has contributed to a situation where two-thirds of people who moved from unemployment into work in the past year are being paid less than the living wage – the amount needed to cover basic costs of living.

Many are also effectively trapped in low-paid work, with only 20 per cent of employees having left that income bracket after a decade in employment. The average self-employed person now earns 13 per cent less than they did five years ago.

Half of all people in poverty now live in a family with someone in paid work, with some 40 per cent of adults in employment now also in poverty.

If this situation is allowed to continue, which it is likely to, it will end in tears !

Why is it that anybody still believes that all our woes can be solved by simply putting a cross in a box every five years; even if all of us put our cross in the same box?

And, no, it isn’t because our politicians are all: corrupt, selfish, arrogant, elitist, out of touch, only in it for themselves (and their friends), posh, gay, idiots, posh-gay-idiots, English, Scottish, Tories, white, black or foreign! Although they may be some or all of those things too…

…it is because solving all, or even most, of our problems is impossible (even if it was entirely within their power)!!!

Right now in the United Kingdom we have growth in the economy (better than most in the EU), low unemployment (better than most in the EU, and way better than some), historically (incredibly) low interest-rates and we are (for the first time in a decade) not at war with anybody…

…wages are lagging behind but nobody can ‘magically’ solve that one (so don’t believe them if they say they can)!

Remember, we are in a pre-election period so watch-out for the planting of pre-election ‘catch-phrases’ and ask yourself can those that use these phrases actually deliver the reality of the idea that they have planted with these phrases? Ask yourself what that reality would actually mean; is it actually achievable? Or is does it just sound like the sort of thing you would vote for if you got the chance?

There are lots of countries, with lots of different systems of democracy (or not) so ask yourself this: if it is just as simple as voting for ‘real change’ where are all the countries that have done this? Surely, our politicians, here and now, are not the first ones to think-of, and promise, this change?

So, if it is so easy…..name the country that you’d rather live in (where this has happened)?

For waco

I think he was depressed after the Rochester by-election results.

He’s now asking that the party’s logo be changed to a condom.

The thinking is that this more accurately reflects the government’s political position:
Condoms allow for inflation, halt production, destroy the next generation, protect a bunch of pricks and gives you a sense of security whilst you are actually being screwed ….

…it will be the salvation of this once great nation. Think about that.

I thought about it, and it boils down to wistful ********. When was this country great, in your opinion?

A public servant, on his way home from work in London traffic came

to a dead halt and thought to himself, “This is unusual.”

He noticed a police officer walking between the lines of stopped

cars, so he rolled down his window and asked, “Officer, what’s the hold-up?”

The officer replied, “The Prime Minister is depressed, so he stopped

his motorcade and is threatening to douse himself with petrol and set

himself on fire. He says no one believes his stories about the economy, or that his tax

cuts will help anyone except his wealthy friends, his position on Europe, getting thrashed in the bi-elections by UKIP,

reducing the military to a minor defense force and leaving a maritime nation without maritime aircraft and

starting the destruction of the NHS.

So we’re taking up a

collection for him.”

The public servant asks, “How much have you got so far?”

The officer replies, “About 200 litres, but a lot of people are still

siphoning.”

Re 55
– or, much more likely, an electoral pact with the Tories to keep Labour out. !

That is possibly the most dangerous tactic and quite possible from multi-faceted Thatcher worshipers.

A coalition of Cameron and Farage would be the death of what is left of our country, come on everything sold to the highest bidder or gift aided to party donors, any last remaining vestiges of the public sector destroyed, sink or swim for most with no regard for the less able, wake up all of you, Osborne can’t get even get close to balancing the books, one reason on his own admission is a drop in the returns from income tax and why would that be I wonder? is it possible it’s down to so many being on garbage earnings that they aren’t paying any income tax.

Don’t get me wrong I certainly don’t wish for the low paid to be dragged into tax brackets, I want to see living wages for all, an end to zero hours contracts, scrapping gangmaster labour, outlaw bogus self employed contacts, none of those will come from Tories or Turbo Tories.

No sound bite intended. Such fantasy can only be deluded. It’s a serious argument to which you are entirely blind.

Yes indeed that’s true but perhaps you would remind me of my other “mistakes”.

I am having some problems with my phone display and missed your comments on Moggy’s post. You have conveniently omitted another likelihood suggested a few posts earlier. Erosion of the Tory vote by UKIP resulting in a minority Labour government or a coalition of the Eurofiles – Labour, Liberals and Greens.

Re 55

I have never denied the possibility of Labour scraping home, as it were, by default. There are two barriers to this; one, that is likely to happen and one, that in all probability won’t.

The stakes in this next General election are so high as to make a long shot gamble worthwhile. Either way there are two chances blocking electoral victory for Labour. UKIP sweeping the board which remains a possibility – no matter the level of Charlie’s denial – or, much more likely, an electoral pact with the Tories to keep Labour out. Much of this hypothesis depends on success for UKIP in the next six months as a consequence of other by-elections or Tory defections.

Re 56

Delusion ? A convenient soundbite! Don’t cheapen your arguments. My ‘delusion’ is perhaps my excessive optimism matched by your equally excessive pessimism. I know which I prefer.

I think that not for the first time you’ve made a mistake. I think that you will find that that screed was written from the angle that Britain was either exiting or had exited from the EU !

You’ve got it quite wrong ! UKIP is not my salvation. UKIP at this moment offers the only realistic chance of leaving the EU. No other party that we can believe, has made this commitment.

It is not for a political party to make the commitment. It is for the people to choose. For this we need a referendum and as Charlie points out the one way to guarantee we don’t get the referendum is to allow Milliband’s Labour in by default.

Moggy