Recent Events in Iraq

Is the possibility that the Jews in Iraq were treated in the same as the rest of the population in Saddam’s Iraq a good thing?

Sauron

Some nicely-timed PR:

M+W Zander US Operation Inc., Plano, Texas, was awarded on May 18th, 2004, a $31,676,996 firm-fixed-price contract for design and construction of military facilities. Work will be performed at various locations within Israel, and is expected to be completed by Aug. 17th, 2005. Contract funds will not expire at the end of the current fiscal year. There were 50 bids solicited on Dec. 23rd, 2003, and six bids were received. The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, Germany, is the contracting activity (W912GB-04-C-0021).

Somehow I don’t think they’ll be rebuilding the zoo that Flood mentioned.

Watched a report on Channel 4 News this evening – quite enlightening.
The town of Brazil was trashed – but the IDF claimed it was damaged by Palestianian, not Israeli bulldozers; when the reporter asked why the town zoo had been flattened the IDF spokesperson claimed that it hadn’t but a few animals may have escaped after being frightened by gun fire. When the reporter stated that she was actually standing next to a cage that had been crushed by a tracked vehicle the IDF spokes person admitted that the animals may have suffered collateral damage but that there had been gunmen present.
The IDF also denied that they had bulldozers in action in the area until they spotted the news cameras filming them.
Other film showed the bulldozers crushing agricultural buildings and greenhouses – hunting for gunmen and tunnels they said, although the workers on the sites concerned would now be out of a job…
The spokesperson admitted no tunnels have been found but that they had gained lots of intelligence. Obviously this would be about the cause and effects of a refugee population and not of the sort measured as IQ, since it doesn’t take a stupid person to work out that there are going to be large chunks of that town who, if they didn’t hate the Israelis before, do now.
Hearts and minds? At least bulldozing refugee camps will stop suicide bombers, won’t it?

Oh yes – there is a bit above, somewhere, which claims that the Arabs in Israel are treated better than Jews in Arab lands; Jews in Iraq were treated no different from the rest of the population (at least, that was the conclusion a recent Channel 4 documentary about an Iraqi jew came to, after talking to him and other jews in Baghdad after the war. In fact the subject of the documentary went to Israel, ended up associating with the Arab underdogs and wishing he was back in Iraq).

Flood.™

And seahawk, complain as you will about how impolite I am, you still haven’t countered my arguements. In fact, you persist in proving me right. Is it not true that by your criteria not only do Jews not deserve Palestine, but they don’t actually deserve any land at all? Or do you have some piece of land hidden away for us? Is this not a de facto denial of the Jewish right of self determination?

Honestly speaking I think Jews do not deserve an own country. Why ??

Because Judaism is a religion and no religion has a “own country”. Only some of those islamic fundamentalists are fighting for an islamic country. A country is defined by the common ethnic heritage of the people living there.

As I already said. Most french do speak french as their first language, most of them were born in France or have parents born in France. And that rule applies to every country in the world except Israel.

If we look at the time the jewish religion was formed and the Jewish people came into existens based on the 12 tribes we see, that the main difference between the Egyptians and the Jews were the following :

– all Jews spoke the same language, but not the same as the Egyptians
– all Jews wrote in that language
– all Jews believed in only one God

Is that the case today ?? Apart from the common religion do the Jews still fullfill the points 1 and 2. I do not mean the people living in Israel today. I mean the people when they went there. To you think that a Jew from East Africa did have anything in common with a Jew from Russia, apart from the fact that they believe in the same religion ??

And that is what makes Israel so unique. You can be American, Syrian or Australian, no matter what your religion is. But you are an Israeli, if you are a Jew.

We must also see that the early tribes left their homeland for the first time with out being forced by anyone. They decided to live in Egypt to escape a period of economic (lack of food) problems. After spending some time in Egypt the 12 tribes wanted to return to theri homeland and they did so wuth their leader Moses. We must also see that even during this journey the Jews were under constant attacks from other tribes living in the area. So even then the land was not empty. After a trip of 40 years the Jewish tribes defeatet the old inhabitants of the land and only then they divided the land between the 12 tribes. Yet even then their was no state Israel.
Only when being attacked by a tribe coming from the area of todays Jordain the 12 tribes united and formed the state of historic Israel.
After forming the state of Israel the tribes defeated the people living in the historic city of Jebus, today known as Jerusalem and that city became the center of the new kingdom of Israel.

That kingdom was conquered by various powers after that. Asyrians, Egyptians, Babylonians, Rome.

Rome finally destroyed Jewish people in that area, after an uprising against Rome failed.

So we see that the Jews were neither the first nor the only people to live in that region. And where would the world come to if all people would claim to have a right to live in that piece of land that an historic kingdom once controlled ??

So in fact any state in the region should treat all people living in the region as equals, no matter what their religion is. Or there would have to be 2 states, but honestly speaking I doubt that turning refugee camps into states will work.

If Rafah continues to be a gateway for weapons with which the Palestinians can target Israelis, in total disregard of their repeated obligations, then there will probably be more operations, even after the withdrawl.

Just let me know when the alleged tunnels are found.

The two-state solution provides the best total result, from a democratic, demographic and historical perspective. If you’re telling yourself anything different then you are deluding yourself.

I agree with you, with the exception that the two states should both be viable. An independent Palestine with limited access to the infrastructure on it’s own soil is not a viable state. From what i can tell from under my comfortable cat here in Europe, the independent Palestinian state Israel has proposed is not a viable one, and is becoming less and less so. As long as that remains the case, i will maintain my point of view that the Palestinians are better off giving up their claims for independence and opt for full integration into Israel. No matter how utopian, unrealistic that is, never mind how undesirable you think it to be.

Don’t lecture me about democracy, democracy also means respecting minorities, something the Arab world is painfully unrealiable in regarding its Jewish communities. Israel has its problems but not only do its Arab citizens enjoy more rights than Jews in Arab lands, they also enjoy more rights than Arabs in Arab lands. I see no reason to believe the overall people will be better.

Correct – Arab countries treat their inhabitants like sh!t, and Israeli Arabs (not Arabs in Israeli-held territories mind you!) are politically much better off than their brethren in Arab states. So why disallow the Palestinians to live in such circumstances? Because you’re afraid an Arab majority in Israel will suddenly change Israel’s democratic institutions into a Baathist dictatorship? Why would that be – Arabs being genetically unable to be democratic, or something? I think the Arab minority in Israel proves otherwise, unless they have been planning a lot of coups and attacks over the years that i haven’t heard of.
To bring link back to the original topic of this thread (i hope there is no rule against staying on topic on these boards 😉 ), i also happen to think that adopting the Palestinian population into the Israeli democratic institutions will give a far better chance of convincing other Arab nations that democratisation is definately the way forward. Furthermore, a democratic multi-ethnic and multi-religious Israel would definately smash all excuses Arab nations (like Syria) seem to invent to keep their own states in a semi-permanent mobilisation and opression. It would remove their foreign excuse for domestic abuse 🙂

If you believe this then you haven’t read a single thing I’ve written over the past few years. I want two states, it is you who offers a solution that would leave Israelis as rightless subjects under Palestinian rule.

I never even suggested that Israelis become rightless subjects under Palestinian rule (like the Palestinians are in effect now rightless subjects under Israeli rule). I said a democracy, with political decision making decided by the people with consideration and fairness to all it’s inhabitants. While i’m pretty sure the Israeli policies of certainly the last 37 years haven’t created a lot of Palestinian goodwill towards Israelis, i still have to be convinced that a vast Palestinian majority is destined to ‘push the Jews back into the sea’. Don’t forget that up until the Intifadahs, Palestinians generally used to work in Israel and as far as i know got assimilated pretty reasonably in the Israeli society. Better at least than a lot of the import-Jews which do get Israeli citizenship without any problems, notwithstanding their dictatorial or otherwise non-Israeli background. The Russian and Ethiopian Jews come to mind.

[quote]Viability is an issue, but a pointless discussion without specifics, without geography. Water you say? My water sources are in Turkey, Lebanon and Syria, and with the creation of a Palestinian state will be in Palestine.[quote]
Water is a commodity in a desert area like the Middle East, and should be treated as such. As you say it is a pointless debate without specifics, i absolutely agree. But how come that in Israel water is used plentiful to keep the lawns green and have the occasional swimming pool in a backyard, while the Palestinians (and Syrians) often have to haggle for their access to water or even have it rationed? Considering the lowering level of the Dead Sea because of reduced inflow from the Jordan River, water resources are definately overstrained in the area. Am i right in guessing Israel’s use of water per capita is the highest of all countries in the region?

A few weeks ago Lebanese pumping of a Jordan River tributary simply cut off supply to Israel for a few hours.

That is exactly what i mean. Since i don’t think Lebanon is able to pump out of rivers on Israeli soil, what prevents them from pumping out water from Lebanese rivers? You can’t claim the right on water flowing into your country from another place. A little bit more international cooperation is needed to arrange these things properly rather than just maintaining total the Golan Heights acquifers.

Besides, you want to talk about viability? We once went to war because of viability, because among other things they cut off all access to one of our southern ports, after years of repeated attempts to divert our water sources. What did you call it? Oh, I remember, “a war for lebersaum”. Tell me about this human equality thing again, why don’t you?

But the Sinai was eventually given up completely, and the Israeli settlements there were removed completely, despite the fact that Egypt (or Saudi Arabia for that matter) can still close off the Gulf of Aqaba/Eilat. But peace has been achieved here, because Israel has been willing to compromise enough.
To me, that will to compromise in order to achieve a viable and lasting peace (with circumstances for all parties arranged in such a way that a lasting peace is viable) seems gone. This time, Israel refuses to give up all settlements and territories, and refuses to hand over complete water access. If you accept Israel going to war on such issues, why do you reject Palestinians (or Syrians) continuing their hostility against Israel when perfectly similar issues are at stake?

Oh, I do care about democracy, a great deal actually, but I also live in the real world and not a moralistic playground in which we can talk about human equlity while prescribing the precise opposite.

You are the one stating here that you don’t want Palestinians to enter the Israeli socio-political society since they are appearantly unable to treat others as benign as Israel does. Who is describing the opposite of humane equality here?

The Palestinians can have a state just as Jews can.

I agree if you add the word ‘viable’. Somehow, the creation of a viable Palestinian state seems less and less likely from what i can tell.

Those Arabs and other minorities can and should have the same right within Israel that its Jewish members enjoy.

As long as they remain a minority, right? If not those Arabs suddenly become a bunch of opressing savages who don’t want to do anything but butcher Jews first, then Palestinian Christians and found a state based on the most militant interpretations of the Sharia, right?

Should they become the majority they will shape the country as they find fitting. That is human equality anchored in the real world, not the delusions that if only Israelis were to give up their indepedence they would enjoy some form of gratitude from their former enemies.

An Israeli minority is now shaping the Palestinian territories as they find fitting. That has nothing to do with human equality, that has everything to do with supremacism and the might of a strong military rather than democracy.
The fact that Israel only seriously began considering granting Palestinian independence after it appeared that Jewish-Israeli demographics by natural growth and immigration could not keep up with the Arab population is pretty illustrative if you ask me. I know now i was wrong when i spoke about Lebensraum in the Israeli context (except for the hardliners who wish to expand Israel’s borders to those of the era of King David). The phrase i should have used was ethno-religious cleanliness.

Have you called the IDF General Staff already? Just to inform them they are currently demolishing the wrong houses during Operation Rainbow? :p

The unilateral withdrawl is a step that both Israelis and Palestinians will benefit from. The operation in Rafah is an attempt to make sure that when Israel does leave, the continued Palestinian attempts to smuggle weapons into the Gaza Strip across the border will be seriously impaired. If Rafah continues to be a gateway for weapons with which the Palestinians can target Israelis, in total disregard of their repeated obligations, then there will probably be more operations, even after the withdrawl.

Why do you want me to say the Jews will be better off living in a democratic state with equal rights for Palestinians and Jews? That won’t be the case, i realise that. But i’m pretty sure the Palestinians will be better off, and i sincerely believe that overall (looking at the total population of Israel/Palestine regardless of religion) people will be better off. I don’t give a toss if Species A or Species B is better or worse off in the scenario, i want the total result for Species A + B to be better. If you don’t, then don’t pretend to be democratic because you are not.

The two-state solution provides the best total result, from a democratic, demographic and historical perspective. If you’re telling yourself anything different then you are deluding yourself. Don’t lecture me about democracy, democracy also means respecting minorities, something the Arab world is painfully unrealiable in regarding its Jewish communities. Israel has its problems but not only do its Arab citizens enjoy more rights than Jews in Arab lands, they also enjoy more rights than Arabs in Arab lands. I see no reason to believe the overall people will be better.

To be honest, I find this a very offensive attitude of yours, if not supremacist. Are you really saying here that Jews should not give up their monopoly of power in the combined area of Israel + Palestine (notwithstanding the token-yentl-Israeli minority), leaving the non-Israeli Palestinians as rightless subjects under Israeli rule?

If you believe this then you haven’t read a single thing I’ve written over the past few years. I want two states, it is you who offers a solution that would leave Israelis as rightless subjects under Palestinian rule.

If you want to work around this problem and maintain the image of Israel as a democracy by giving the Palestinians independence, i think you should be fair enough to allow the Palestinians a viable independent state.
If not, then please tell me the difference between Israel/Palestine and South Africa/Bantustans (Venda, Boputhatswana, you know those ‘independent’ states in South Africa with their water access cleverly cut off and no means of economic development whatsoever).

Viability is an issue, but a pointless discussion without specifics, without geography. Water you say? My water sources are in Turkey, Lebanon and Syria, and with the creation of a Palestinian state will be in Palestine. A few weeks ago Lebanese pumping of a Jordan River tributary simply cut off supply to Israel for a few hours. Besides, you want to talk about viability? We once went to war because of viability, because among other things they cut off all access to one of our southern ports, after years of repeated attempts to divert our water sources. What did you call it? Oh, I remember, “a war for lebersaum”. Tell me about this human equality thing again, why don’t you?

So now, i want you to tell me you don’t give a toss about democracy or the rights of Palestinians because you as a Jew feel threatened by them having any sort of influence over you. I want to see the supremacism, the detachment from human equality which only your Israeli arrogant presumptions can provide. Just say it.
😀

Oh, I do care about democracy, a great deal actually, but I also live in the real world and not a moralistic playground in which we can talk about human equlity while prescribing the precise opposite. The Palestinians can have a state just as Jews can. Those Arabs and other minorities can and should have the same right within Israel that its Jewish members enjoy. Should they become the majority they will shape the country as they find fitting. That is human equality anchored in the real world, not the delusions that if only Israelis were to give up their indepedence they would enjoy some form of gratitude from their former enemies.

It quite amazing to see that at a time that the Israeli government is trying to push forward a plan to evacuate both Israeli troops and Israeli settlements from the Gaza Strip, you’re actually accusing us of trying to get rid of them!

Have you called the IDF General Staff already? Just to inform them they are currently demolishing the wrong houses during Operation Rainbow? :p

Last month another Arab was elected to sit on the Israeli Supreme Court while only last night a predominantly Arab football club won the national cup and will represent Israel in international tournaments. Our democracy may not be perfect, but neither has yours always been. I want you to say it Arthur, I want to hear it : tell me Jews will be better off living in an Arab country, because that’s what you wish for them. Like Egypt, for instance, which displayed the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as a Jewish holy book in a UNESCO funded library. I want to see the hyporicy, the detachment from reality which only your European moralistic presumptions can provide. Just say it.

Why do you want me to say the Jews will be better off living in a democratic state with equal rights for Palestinians and Jews? That won’t be the case, i realise that. But i’m pretty sure the Palestinians will be better off, and i sincerely believe that overall (looking at the total population of Israel/Palestine regardless of religion) people will be better off. I don’t give a toss if Species A or Species B is better or worse off in the scenario, i want the total result for Species A + B to be better. If you don’t, then don’t pretend to be democratic because you are not.

To be honest, I find this a very offensive attitude of yours, if not supremacist. Are you really saying here that Jews should not give up their monopoly of power in the combined area of Israel + Palestine (notwithstanding the token-yentl-Israeli minority), leaving the non-Israeli Palestinians as rightless subjects under Israeli rule? If you want to work around this problem and maintain the image of Israel as a democracy by giving the Palestinians independence, i think you should be fair enough to allow the Palestinians a viable independent state. If not, then please tell me the difference between Israel/Palestine and South Africa/Bantustans (Venda, Boputhatswana, you know those ‘independent’ states in South Africa with their water access cleverly cut off and no means of economic development whatsoever).

So now, i want you to tell me you don’t give a toss about democracy or the rights of Palestinians because you as a Jew feel threatened by them having any sort of influence over you. I want to see the supremacism, the detachment from human equality which only your Israeli arrogant presumptions can provide. Just say it.
😀

Well I would first reply to them that as there are no pureblood Maori left that if I must leave they must therefore come too.

Second I would point out that my ancestors arrived here after them but that their ancestors also arrived to this country from polynesia. The fact that both our ancestors arrived here surely means that the current people of New Zealand… both them and I… that were born here should have as much claim to being a native if not more claim than they did.

So, let me get this straight: since everyone basically arrived at one time or another, without the importance of precedence, then neither have claims stronger than any other, right? But you see, that’s just the point. I never claimed exclusive Jewish rights in Palestine, I claim a right based on a historically proven fact that Jews existed as a nation in Palestine, that they are in fact indigenous as far as anyone can tell, that they were expelled by force, but that they have also maintained both a constant presence in the land as well as a constant wish to return, which with time became embodied within Judaism as a religion. Yet at the same time I do not deny a similiar Palestinian right, just like Jews the Palestinians are also descendants of various waves of immigration to this land, in recent as well as ancient times. The very name Palestine, the name the Roman gave this land when they expelled the Jews and set to erase any trace of Jewish independence, is from the Philistines, which were Greek seafolk which settled on the Mediterranean coast.

If the Jews were not in palestine then I would oppose them going there to kick out another people just because some book states that some of their ancestors came from there.

Jewish nationhood in Palestine is a historical fact, you don’t have to be religious to understand this. Even if you ignore all the overwhelming archeological evidence, you can simply take a trip down to Rome’s Titus Arch and see the story of the plundering of the Kingdom of Judea on the walls or read the works of Flavius Josephus which detail Jewish life and revolts against Roman rule. (Available on Amazon 😀 )

The fact that you are there means there is no point in trying to get rid of you, but by expanding your settlements and killing palestinians you seem also to be trying to get rid of them.

:rolleyes: There is a war here, between two sides you know, and it’s bad enough without going over the edge in what are accusations with simply no basis in reality. It quite amazing to see that at a time that the Israeli government is trying to push forward a plan to evacuate both Israeli troops and Israeli settlements from the Gaza Strip, you’re actually accusing us of trying to get rid of them!

I am sure you will }>
(damn we need a devil smiley again)

Well, you know, some of have have to use facts, not all of us are content with basing our arguments on dogs, rats and other forms of wildlife.

No offence meant but there was probably also a continued presence of dogs and rats… should they fight to claim ownership? There are probably plenty of Jehovas witnesses, christians, and many other relisions there too… shold they all try to take over the place so they can have a safe place in the world from oppression?

So what would you have us do? Submit to the fate bestowed upon us by our dear and considerate hosts? You mention Christians, yet how many Christian nations are there? How many Muslim countries? It’s all too easy to sit on the sidelines and pass judgement. You think we did something unreasonable, creating our own safe place, something that has not been done before? You cannot be serious. Why did your forefathers immegrate to New Zealand, Garry? For economic reasons, I guess. Yet you would claim to be more justified that me?

You have an ideological claim to a patch of dirt. How many have died for that? Is you religion worth all of that death and suffering? Religions seem to prosper when there is a lot of death and disaster around… they never bring the peace and understanding they preach.

Spare me the preaching, for 19 centuries in exile we were plainly not good enough for Europe or anyone else, we certainly were not “your” people, hard as we tried. Not as observant Jews, not as secular, not as capitalists, socialist, anarchists, nationalist, nor as communists. Within living memory we were slaughtered by the millions. You may have forgotten history, I have not. My grandfather was secular, he fought with the Red Army against the Nazis. Much good either did him when the Poles nationalized his belongings and showed him the door.

It is funny that I hear some suggest the problem is Yasser Arafat. The simple truth is that the Palestinian people trust him… if he were removed even if you got someone you could deal with what is the point?

I can best explain it as if you have a workers union with powerful negotiator on the union side that the workers chose… if the company decides that they can’t make the cuts and changes they want to make with that negotiator if they have him replaced by someone that will make the changes they want then they are wasting their time as the workers will see he is a company man and reject the deal. A rejected deal means strikes and go slows. In context if the Israelis remove Yasser then any deal his replacement signs will not be accepted if the palestinians don’t like it. You can bleat all you like about how they are violating the new deal but the result will be continued bloodshed.

There was a time the above thought was prevalent, I believed it myself. That time is long gone. Whatever their methods, even tough negotiators eventually reach an agreement, because even they realise that is the ultimate interest of both employers and employees, and even they realise that they are useless if their word means nothing. This is not Yasser Arafat. This is not a man striving for a negotiated agreement, but a man using every means at his disposal, especially violence, to force a completely unacceptable solution upon Israel. Agreements he signs are not worth the paper they are written on. What he does not manage to achieve through negotiations because he refuses to compromise, he attempts to achieve through violence. When power over the Palestinians was handed to him, instead of preparing his people for the compromises peace would necessitate, instead of building the institutions necessary for effective government, he turned Palestinian regions into cleptocracies, terrorist safe heavens, continueing to delude his people with promises of eventual victory while the content of his media and education systems spewed the most vile and inciteful hatred toward everything Israeli and Jewish. He has repeatedly failed them in the past, in Jordan and in Lebanon, and he continues to fail them today. He is their tragedy, and they will be the first to benefit from his demise.

If Israel deserves a state… I am not up with your religion… did you ever actually have a Jewish state before or was it just the case that a lot of Jews lived in that area? …then surely Palestine needs to exist too, and with full autonomy… ie airports, ports, etc etc.

Again, Jewish nationhood in Palestine is a historical fact. But aside from that, I’ve already said this countless times before : The reason Palestinians don’t have an independent state is not because of an inherent Israeli refusal to recognize a Palestinian right to self determination. (There are quite a few of us here, has any one of us ever denied the Palestinians their right to a state?) It is, hard as you may try to ignore this, because peace requires both trust and concesions from both sides. Neither exist because the Palestinian leadership totally refuses to compromise on issues which are of fundamental important to the Israeli populace. Coupled with their total disregard for signed commitments and repeated use of violence for political ends, the Israeli electorate simply does not see what it has to gain from making concessions. Since 1993 various Israeli prime ministers such as Rabin, Peres and Barak, took huge risks in order to move the peace process forward, not the least of which was arming the Palestinian Authority with the weapons that it todays targets us with. In return all the Palestinians could say was “no.” Arafat would not compromise an inch on territory, on the Holy Places and on the refugees, whose presumptive rights were fundamentally incompatible both with the two-state solution and with the survival Israel.

Now come on, Steve. You know just as well that as soon as Israel start living up to it’s ‘democratic’ banner, they can remove the Star of David from their flag and turn it into a smiley icon or something like that. Nevertheless, in an ideal world i would love to see that happen: the Palestinians giving up their demands for an independent state, and instead demand citizenship of the country that is currently governing their territories… if only…

Last month another Arab was elected to sit on the Israeli Supreme Court while only last night a predominantly Arab football club won the national cup and will represent Israel in international tournaments. Our democracy may not be perfect, but neither has yours always been. I want you to say it Arthur, I want to hear it : tell me Jews will be better off living in an Arab country, because that’s what you wish for them. Like Egypt, for instance, which displayed the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as a Jewish holy book in a UNESCO funded library. I want to see the hyporicy, the detachment from reality which only your European moralistic presumptions can provide. Just say it.

And seahawk, complain as you will about how impolite I am, you still haven’t countered my arguements. In fact, you persist in proving me right. Is it not true that by your criteria not only do Jews not deserve Palestine, but they don’t actually deserve any land at all? Or do you have some piece of land hidden away for us? Is this not a de facto denial of the Jewish right of self determination?

Especially as this move would ensure that they will be in power most quickly. Igven the fact that they are the majority already. And that demand would be even harder to put down.

It always puts a wry smile on my face when I hear both American and Jewish-Israelis come up with that old chestnut to justify recent internal outrages: that Israel is “the only democracy in the Middle-East”.

Now come on, Steve. You know just as well that as soon as Israel start living up to it’s ‘democratic’ banner, they can remove the Star of David from their flag and turn it into a smiley icon or something like that. Nevertheless, in an ideal world i would love to see that happen: the Palestinians giving up their demands for an independent state, and instead demand citizenship of the country that is currently governing their territories… if only…

Kfadrat,
Did you even bother to read my response post to your initial “INSTALLATION” remarks? Probably not.

I DID.

And it’s nice to know you’re actually aware of my age…..oh wait, you’re wrong on that too.

which one? your mental age or your body age?

Kfadrat,
Did you even bother to read my response post to your initial “INSTALLATION” remarks? Probably not.

And it’s nice to know you’re actually aware of my age…..oh wait, you’re wrong on that too.

It always puts a wry smile on my face when I hear both American and Jewish-Israelis come up with that old chestnut to justify recent internal outrages: that Israel is “the only democracy in the Middle-East”.

If there has been a more blatant case of gerrymandering to make the term “democracy” completely meaningless, then maybe somebody could point us to it?

No wonder Dame Shirley Porter feels so at home there…I’m sure Israeli gerrymandering was the inspiration for her Westminster Council plans.

Steve

Indeed, what “If the Maori decide that they have had enough of us whities and ask that we leave and generally make our lives hell till we do” ? Forget about the “where”, are you indeed going to leave?

Well I would first reply to them that as there are no pureblood Maori left that if I must leave they must therefore come too.

Second I would point out that my ancestors arrived here after them but that their ancestors also arrived to this country from polynesia. The fact that both our ancestors arrived here surely means that the current people of New Zealand… both them and I… that were born here should have as much claim to being a native if not more claim than they did.

If the Jews were not in palestine then I would oppose them going there to kick out another people just because some book states that some of their ancestors came from there.
The fact that you are there means there is no point in trying to get rid of you, but by expanding your settlements and killing palestinians you seem also to be trying to get rid of them.

I mean, I could talk at length about Palestine as the brithplace of the Jewish people,

I am sure you will }>
(damn we need a devil smiley again)

about their forceful expulsion from it, the continual presence of Jews in Palestine through the ages,

No offence meant but there was probably also a continued presence of dogs and rats… should they fight to claim ownership? There are probably plenty of Jehovas witnesses, christians, and many other relisions there too… shold they all try to take over the place so they can have a safe place in the world from oppression?

So, Garry, when are you leaving New Zealand and returning it to its original owners? With all due espect, Jews have a much greater claim to Palestine that a “whitie” like you has to New Zealand, dont you think?

Actually Most of the birdlife was wiped out by the introduction of man. The Moa… a 3m tall walking bird much like an emu but much bigger, the Haast Eagle that hunted Moa, and many other birds are gone… many are going if we leave them. Rats, Mice, Cats, Dogs, Ferrets, Stoats, Wild Pigs all take their toll. All the Humans just arrived and to be honest New Zealand is a worse place for it.

You have an ideological claim to a patch of dirt. How many have died for that? Is you religion worth all of that death and suffering? Religions seem to prosper when there is a lot of death and disaster around… they never bring the peace and understanding they preach.

I will repeat if you haven’t got it already, my little “leave and take over another country” speach was not a demand for all Israelis to be removed from Israel, it was merely to point out that what the UN did was wrong. It has been done now and cannot be undone, and to suggest any party leave is patently rediculous… even if they could the problems of where they go and what they will need when they get there are just unthinkable.

I think If both sides could actually accept that and realise you have to get along then there might be some progress. The main problem, it seems to me is that nobody in power on either side wants peace bad enough. They both use any excuse to stop moving forward.

It is funny that I hear some suggest the problem is Yasser Arafat. The simple truth is that the Palestinian people trust him… if he were removed even if you got someone you could deal with what is the point?

I can best explain it as if you have a workers union with powerful negotiator on the union side that the workers chose… if the company decides that they can’t make the cuts and changes they want to make with that negotiator if they have him replaced by someone that will make the changes they want then they are wasting their time as the workers will see he is a company man and reject the deal. A rejected deal means strikes and go slows. In context if the Israelis remove Yasser then any deal his replacement signs will not be accepted if the palestinians don’t like it. You can bleat all you like about how they are violating the new deal but the result will be continued bloodshed.

If Israel deserves a state… I am not up with your religion… did you ever actually have a Jewish state before or was it just the case that a lot of Jews lived in that area? …then surely Palestine needs to exist too, and with full autonomy… ie airports, ports, etc etc.

The war itself is different, the intentions given by the leaders are different but there will always be a higher motive to fight for. There will always be a god (note the fact that I’m not using a capital letter). “Democracy” is today’s god for whom we are sending soldiers into the battlefield. Is it worth it? I’m not giving answer Arthur, I’m just asking myself: is “Democracy” more than just a motive to trigger a war?

Anyway, will have to read more, a lot more before I can give an answer which makes some sence.

Geforce,

would i be correct in thinking that you are actually saying that neither the Crusades nor the current War on Terrorism are essentially different than the Viking raids?

In my opinion, “God” merely represents an imaginary entity created and promoted by individuals who were adherent to the products of their own fantasy and creativity. “He” is a mentally materialized source of hope, comfort, aid, guidance etc., both on a collective and an individual human basis. The so-called problem of evil; the lack of incidents related to “divine” intervention against elements which defy the Christian ideology, substantiates the fact that there is no divine power.

The medieval crusades were offensive campaigns aimed at the retrieval of historic Christian sites described in the Bible (?), implicating bloodshed in the name of religion (please correct me if I’m wrong, I’m not exactly up to date when it comes to this issue). Today’s CMs are weapon platforms employed for both tactical and strategic purposes during armed conflicts. They don’t carry crosses.

By the way, Geforce, your final statement reminds me of a certain analogy used by some factions to describe i.e. coalition operations in Afghanistan and Iraq.

The rational reason for the Crusades were not to reconquer Jerusalem. Most people who joined the crusades were farmers, poor people, even children who had nothing to lose and hoped for a better future. “God” was only the official reason, but even the pope knew by then, there were more economic motives to start these campaigns.

However, it was not my intention to compare medieval and today’s warfare. They are completelly different, and looking at the war in Iraq, so are the motives. Even if I accept the fact for example that the US is fighting for democracy, and I’m sure many people in DC were so naive they thought they would even succeed in it, there’s still the problem of the immoral warfare. A CM may have replaced the axe and the musket, the intentions are still the same. War is always between people, religion is just a motive. And here’s my conclusion, today’s motives are the “justified” war, which is fought with a minimum loss of civilian casualties. The “moral” war is a religion itself.

I understand your anger, Kfadrat, but we simply don’t elect our governments on a single issue.

It’s far from that simple and, to be brutally frank with you, events in far-off lands – even shocking events like this and the recent suicide bombings in Israel – are a long way down people’s list of priorities when they come to choose which way to vote in an election. Domestic issues tend to be predominant.

It probably shouldn’t be that way, but there it is.

One of the big drawbacks with democracy is that sometimes the wishes and views of the majority don’t co-incide with one’s own.

do you live in a democracy or not?

DO YOU ELECT YOUR GOVERNMENT OR NOT???

you can simply STOP electing those who are allowing this, like Bush who yesterday told IBAC when they thanked him for his efforts in Iraq that : ” THIS IS ONLY THE BEGINING ” .

the SOB, what’s the end? a new crusade towards Makkah? to make his masters in Tel Aviv happy?.

I simply don’t understand what kind of a democracy would always bring peopel who support Israeli terrorism into power if voters don’t support this terrorism?????

Terrible and tragic events, without doubt.

What, exactly, do you think we can do about it, Kfadrat?