Recent Events in Iraq

the number is now 23 dead MOSTLY children … democracy the Israeli way.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/130B11F6-E96E-4B3B-93CB-55DDC8CE7FCF.htm

Israel targets protesters in Rafah assault

Wednesday 19 May 2004, 17:53 Makka Time, 14:53 GMT

Israeli helicopters have fired missiles at Palestinians peacefully protesting against a massive raid in the occupied Gaza Strip, leaving up to 20 dead and dozens injured.

Israeli occupation soldiers in Rafah also fired tank shells and machineguns at demonstrators protesting against Israel’s bloody invasion of the neighbouring refugee camp, said Palestinian security officials on Wednesday.

At least 40 others – mainly civilians – were injured. The majority of those wounded were women and children, medical sources told Aljazeera’s correspondent Samir Abu Shamala. Chaos swept the streets as survivors piled the wounded into vehicles.

Hospital floors were drenched with blood as doctors shouted for help and blood donations. Staff treated the wounded on the floor after quickly running out of beds.

The latest casualties raises to more than 40 Palestinians killed in Rafah refugee camp and the neighbouring city since Israel launched a massive assault on the camp early on Tuesday.

Anger swept across the occupied Gaza Strip as news spread of the attack, reported Aljazeera’s correspondent.

Teenagers killed

Earlier, Israeli occupation forces shot dead four Palestinian civilians, including two teenagers, in the Rafah refugee camp.

Israeli soldiers killed Muhammad Abu Nasr, 16, in the besieged Tal al-Sultan neighbourhood of the impoverished camp and a 13-year-old boy.

Khalil Abu Said, 37, was hit by an Israeli tank shell after coming out of his home carrying a white flag, said security sources.

Israeli troops had ordered all men to leave their homes and surrender their weapons. They also called on resistance fighters to surrender.

Occupation soldiers have also ordered by loudspeaker all males over 16 to gather in one place or risk demolition of family homes. Israel has threatened to carry out a systematic destruction of homes in the impoverished area since the start of the invasion.

Israeli tanks and infantry poured into Rafah in defiance of international criticism, drawing UN and European Union criticism that the operation could make thousands of Palestinians homeless.

Some residents of the Rafah camp said men were emerging from homes amid fears they would be harmed.

Aljazeera + Agencies

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enjoy:

killer missles MADE IN USA!

Cool, now I’d love to think more about this one. I’m no atheist, in fact, I think being atheist is impossible. If you talk about a ‘supreme being’, an IQM (id quo maius) that doesn’t necessairly have to be the catholic Jaweh or Allah or Visjnoe. What about the modern, rational scientists, the 4-eyed nerds who believe in the almighty God of 0 and 1? Aren’t these two digits ‘gods’ too? These digits are “dogma’s”, nobody can proof their existence, but IT’s can create wonderful things with it, and can create modern warfare. Where’s the difference between the medieval crusades and today’s cruise missiles?

I worship my one true goddess – because, for a start, she makes me laugh.

Flood.™

rat, (yes that’s your new name for me 🙂 )

How exactly was America INSTALLED?

ooooh, the poor kid now resorts to name calling … poor little thing.

Son, history starts where it actually starts, NOT where a US high School student wants it to start, you start at settelers not wanting her majisty’s government anymore, but where did these settelers come from at the first place? they were gathered from around the world to take someone else’s land, the same thing with Israel … period.

ONLY a few thousand Jews who lived in Palestine before the darn Belfore promise HAVE the right to live in Palestine, the rest are just a gang that gathered from 200 countries to have some fun killing and testing American weapons, that’s all.

Yet in your own reasoning you use precisely four nationalities which do have nation states of their own: Turkey, Italy, Greece and more than 20 Arab countries. This goes beyond affiliation to a specific piece of land, because the nationalities you mentioned are not lacking in that regard. What in effect you are saying is that Jews have no right of self determination, denying them the rights under which numerous nation states on this planet have come into being, and condeming them to perpetual depedence on the fleeting will of the likes of Europe and the Muslim World. We both know our history, you’ll forgive me if I decline.

No, there is a very huge difference between Israel and the states I mentioned.

The difference is that, todays Italians, Turks (or whatever) are members of that nation, because they were born there, or have parrents that were born there. They have few things in common with the historic people that once made up the empires of those historic countries.

So compared to Israel, I would say that every person born in Palestina or having parrents that were born there, is logicaly a person who is part of the nation that controls that piece of land.

Jews on the other hand, were born all over the world, were citizens of many different countries and had no direct and personal connection to the land of Palestina.

So how can we justify that every Jew has a right to live in Israel, regardless of the fact if he was born there or not.

(and thanks for the nice interpretation of my posts 😀 )

rat, (yes that’s your new name for me 🙂 )

If, perhaps you’re referring to the treatment of the Native Americans, then I can perhaps see a sort of parallel, and while what the colonists and later early American (United States that is) citizens did to the Native Americans was wrong you can’t single one country out for things of that nature happening as they have happened all over the world at different times.

PII, this is perhaps the most intelligent thing you’ve said in your entire life, and I mean it. Neither Israel, nor the Arabs can claim the land just because of historic reasons, it’s the situation today that counts.

Religion and believing in a supreme being is definately the route of a whole lot of death and misery throughout the course of history.

True or false?

Flood.™

Cool, now I’d love to think more about this one. I’m no atheist, in fact, I think being atheist is impossible. If you talk about a ‘supreme being’, an IQM (id quo maius) that doesn’t necessairly have to be the catholic Jaweh or Allah or Visjnoe. What about the modern, rational scientists, the 4-eyed nerds who believe in the almighty God of 0 and 1? Aren’t these two digits ‘gods’ too? These digits are “dogma’s”, nobody can proof their existence, but IT’s can create wonderful things with it, and can create modern warfare. Where’s the difference between the medieval crusades and today’s cruise missiles?

Sure, here :

Seahawk is saying Jews don’t deserve a state in Palestine, their ancestral homeland. Now, as land is not a commodity available on the market and Jews can stake no claim to any other, by the same standards in effect Jews don’t deserve a state anywhere. There is no theoretical right to self-determination without the right to exercise it. If you think my interpretation is wrong, feel free to explain where.

Do ‘Jews’ deserve a state of their own? Short answer: no! Do people who live in Israel and are Jewish have the right to live in a nation state: yes. In the 21th century a state can not be solely based on historic or religious origins. The definition of a “state” is that it’s a rational contract between individuals and a gov’t which looks after the individual rights, for example religion. (Hobbes/Locke/US Constitution). A state is opposed to a tribe, which is based upon all kinds of unrational elements. If Israel wants to be recognised as a state, it should accept the fact that a state can not be based upon religion solely, which Skythe already pointed out.

However, this is just theoretical BS. Unfortunatelly, the trouble in the middle east can not be solved through philosophical details like this. After all “muslim-states” like Iran and Saudi-Arabia have the same problems, and even bigger, of excluding other religions.

Which bring us neatly through 360 degrees……… 🙂

Then all that about “no right of self determination, denying them the rights under which numerous nation states on this planet have come into being, and condeming them to perpetual depedence on the fleeting will of the likes of Europe and the Muslim World” actually came from your imagination, rather than from anything that seahawk actually said?

:rolleyes:
I have already pointed out the logic of my arguement. If you don’t like it, feel free to explain where it fails.

All I did was follow Seahawk’s remarks to their logical conclusion.

Then all that about “no right of self determination, denying them the rights under which numerous nation states on this planet have come into being, and condeming them to perpetual depedence on the fleeting will of the likes of Europe and the Muslim World” actually came from your imagination, rather than from anything that seahawk actually said?

At no point doing my long years in this place have ever suggested anything to deny Palestinians their right to an indepedent state within the borders of mandatory Palestine nor the equality of Arab-Israelis within Israel.

Excellent! 🙂

Your basic mistake is the belief that Zionism has a “notion of exclusivity”.

I think otherwise, but it’s clear that we’d best agree to disagree on this, as I can sense a circular argument coming on……..

BTW – I commend you heartily on your ability to discuss these highly-emotive issues without hurling charges of “anti-semitism” at those whose opinions differ from yours. I wish it were so on some other forums that I frequent……….. 😎

I cannot find all of the bad things you accused seahawk of suggesting in the passage you quoted. Perhaps you’re looking for them harder than I am?

All I did was follow Seahawk’s remarks to their logical conclusion. If Jews don’t deserve a state in Palestine, the same can be argued for every piece of land on this planet. Again, if my conclusions were wrong, feel free to point out where.

My understanding is that there is a distinction between Judaism and Israel.

If the state of Israel were an exclusive nation in which all of the Jewish faith was gathered, to the exclusion of all others, then your line of reasoning would have more strength.

Of course Judaism and Israel are completely different things. I don’t think I suggested otherwise, and I certainly did not intend to say so. I don’t see what this has to do with the issue at hand, though. Israel is the Jewish national home, a refuge for Jews worldwide should they need it, but there is no requirement for anyone to affiliate himself with it if he doesn’t wish so.

However, not all those who are of the Jewish faith choose to live in Israel, and not all those who live in Israel are of the Jewish faith.

OK, so what? Nearly every country in the world boasts one majority community, and nearly all reflect the cultural identity of that community in one way or another. The United States officially celebrates only Christian holidays and many European countries openly identify as either Catholic or Protestant. How many countries boast crosses on their flags?

Were the tribes of Israel the only peoples living in present-day Israel in biblical times? In a rare show of solidarity, both the Bible and the science of archaeology tell us otherwise.

Now, this in no way reduces the right of Israel to exist free from harm and molestation, but it does call into question the notion of exclusivity that Zionism holds so dear.

You refer to Palestine as “their (the Jews) ancestral homeland”. Please tell us where the Palestinians ancestors came from.

Your basic mistake is the belief that Zionism has a “notion of exclusivity”. Neither I, nor the majority of Israelis, object to the formation of a Palestinian state. At no point did I suggest Palestinians have no right to this place. You should really read my posts better. At no point doing my long years in this place have ever suggested anything to deny Palestinians their right to an indepedent state within the borders of mandatory Palestine nor the equality of Arab-Israelis within Israel.

I cannot find all of the bad things you accused seahawk of suggesting in the passage you quoted. Perhaps you’re looking for them harder than I am?

My understanding is that there is a distinction between Judaism and Israel.

If the state of Israel were an exclusive nation in which all of the Jewish faith was gathered, to the exclusion of all others, then your line of reasoning would have more strength.

However, not all those who are of the Jewish faith choose to live in Israel, and not all those who live in Israel are of the Jewish faith.

Were the tribes of Israel the only peoples living in present-day Israel in biblical times? In a rare show of solidarity, both the Bible and the science of archaeology tell us otherwise.

Now, this in no way reduces the right of Israel to exist free from harm and molestation, but it does call into question the notion of exclusivity that Zionism holds so dear.

You refer to Palestine as “their (the Jews) ancestral homeland”. Please tell us where the Palestinians ancestors came from.

Well, I didn’t see where seahawk said that, skythe.

Perhaps you’d care to quote the relevant passage?

Sure, here :

Sorry I can not accept that reasoning. Having a historic connection to a land, does not neccessary mean that you can have a country there today.

Seahawk is saying Jews don’t deserve a state in Palestine, their ancestral homeland. Now, as land is not a commodity available on the market and Jews can stake no claim to any other, by the same standards in effect Jews don’t deserve a state anywhere. There is no theoretical right to self-determination without the right to exercise it. If you think my interpretation is wrong, feel free to explain where.

What in effect you are saying is that Jews have no right of self determination, denying them the rights under which numerous nation states on this planet have come into being, and condeming them to perpetual depedence on the fleeting will of the likes of Europe and the Muslim World.

Well, I didn’t see where seahawk said that, skythe.

Perhaps you’d care to quote the relevant passage?

Yet in your own reasoning you use precisely four nationalities which do have nation states of their own: Turkey, Italy, Greece and more than 20 Arab countries. This goes beyond affiliation to a specific piece of land, because the nationalities you mentioned are not lacking in that regard. What in effect you are saying is that Jews have no right of self determination, denying them the rights under which numerous nation states on this planet have come into being, and condeming them to perpetual depedence on the fleeting will of the likes of Europe and the Muslim World. We both know our history, you’ll forgive me if I decline.

Sorry I can not accept that reasoning. Having a historic connection to a land, does not neccessary mean that you can have a country there today.

Just imagine others would claim the same reasoning. Half of the southern europe would be greek, turkish, italian or arabian, whoever would come up with the claim. And nearly all of those mentioned were expelled from the areas by force.

Jews have absolutely no claim for Palestina.

Oh no, I fear the Jewish claim to Palestine is very real and quite legitimate. Palestine is unquestionably the birthplace of the Jewish people, the sole location around which their spiritual, religious and national identities were formed. Here these were born and here they lasted until expelled by force. Even then and ever since Jews never lost their connection to this land nor ever stopped exercising their claim to this land. By 1864, long before Zionism and the arrival of “European Jews”, Jews already constituted a clear-cut majority in Jerusalem. Even the the League of Nations Mandate that was issued by the victorious powers of World War I did not create the rights of the Jewish people to a national home in Palestine, but rather recognized a pre-existing right. This has nothing to do with religion, Judaism, Christianity or Islam, but simply with the historicaly founded fact that the homeland of the Jews is Palestine. There is no other.

As for the Palestinians, they undoubtedly have a legitimate claim as well, and as well deserve their own country. But as unfortunate as their current state is, let’s not loose sight of history. What befell the Palestinians in 1948 came about not because Jews refused to recognize Palestinian rights, but because the Palestinians and fellow Arab allies refused to recognise any rights save their own nor any compromise that would have established independent homelands for both people. The fact that to this day they refuse to recognize the Jewish connection to this land nor our right of self determination, is just another reason why more than 50 years on they still haven’t achieved indepedence.

Jews have absolutely no claim for Palestina.

Otherwise Italy could claim Palestina, Egypt could do so, and many other historical powers could do so.

Palestina is also the birth place of the Christian religion. That reasoning has been used in the past to conquer Palestina. Would you say that the crusaders were correct in doing their crusade ??

One should look into the structure of the palestinian society before european jews went to palestina. And then the arabs were the majority.

Good one, Garry, the internal contradictions within are quite staggering.
Indeed, what “If the Maori decide that they have had enough of us whities and ask that we leave and generally make our lives hell till we do” ? Forget about the “where”, are you indeed going to leave? I mean, I could talk at length about Palestine as the brithplace of the Jewish people, about their forceful expulsion from it, the continual presence of Jews in Palestine through the ages, the Jewish majority at various point in history, as well as the long attempts at compromise between the two sides. But really, why should I go to such lengths? So, Garry, when are you leaving New Zealand and returning it to its original owners? With all due espect, Jews have a much greater claim to Palestine that a “whitie” like you has to New Zealand, dont you think?

Israel was formed after World War II, and the Jewish people were sent to an area in the Middle East, which composes modern-day Israel (and Palestine), as they had virtually no other place to go.

Interesting. So, I am a white person living in New Zealand. If the Maori decide that they have had enough of us whities and ask that we leave and generally make our lives hell till we do leave do we get to pick where we go? I have to tick European on all the forms I sign regarding race, so I am assuming I can pick a nice area in Europe to create our own new independant country… hell, why bother with that… lets pick a place in the new world and pick a nice are in the US. If those that already live where we pick don’t like it, well we can fight them for it and whoever wins gets to occupy the other cause neither of us is going anywhere else…