EELightningWhen EADS get into the same situations as LM and their F-35s & F-22s, thens the time to worry. 😉
I am not so sure about the price being that high! Also the MAKO could have been a very good competitors in smaller markets as a light fighter aircraft or a LIFT. Once the production development had been sorted out it would have been a relatively cost effective aircraft with some modest stealth features
I don’t remember the cost being at such a high price. As I was saying earlier, I wouldn’t start working on it anytime soon as far as getting it into full operational service is concerned, but maybe get a small team to work on development & hopefully find ways to improve in some areas etc. It would also be worth getting some Indian engineers to work on the aircraft and some of its systems too, gain experience & all.
EELightningtyphoon better in a2a? please…. AESA Vs AESA, AIM-120 Vs AIM-120… F-15SG would win against typhoon in this instance
You missed out IRS-T, ASRAAM, more advanced airframe, performance at and over supersoinc speeds & at very high altitudes meaning greater kinetic energies, oh you mention AESA so I guess you mean E-Scan/Captor-E radar, of which comes with a Repositioner hence greater FOV & add Meteor to that if you want to wear a pair of knuckle-dusters to cause a bit more pain, also, other items such as BAE Systems HMSS etc…
Yeah…I can see where the F-15SG is better here…Oh dear, I fell for yet another silly “VS” comparison of two fighters…Blast! :rolleyes:
EELightningSomewhat intersting are the drones- but here Dassault is the technological leader in Europe.
Really? Hmmm…
Eurofighter GmbH have stated on a number of occasions that India will have the potential to be a part of UAV programmes (amonst many other projects) of which, quite a bit of it would be via BAE Systems’ Taranis for example.
MAKO should have got into production years ago… just a shame no one had wanted to use it for their airforces…
Do you reckon the Mako came a long a bit too soon? I think maybe it did…because lets face it, the Hawk is probably the best and most popular jet trainer out there at the moment and it most probably has been for past donkey years. And when an air forces operates these, its merely to prepare fast jet pilots for whats to come, thats pretty much it really & they’re going to think; ‘Well why bother with the Mako? Hawks will do us fine!’
However, as I say, the Hawk can be updated with better & better electronics in the future but at some point its going to be needed to be replaced with something else, and the Mako would do fine I believe. But it would still have a lot of competition from BAE Systems’ Hawk.
It also depends on how long the IAF want to operate its Hawks – it must be stressed that this is an airforce that seems to like to get the most flight hours out of an aircraft, but still, being offered a chance to co-develope a future supersonic jet trainer is an attractive offer. But I’m not sure I would put it into production just yet. Get a bit more out of the Hawk first & when not much more can be squezed from it, start thinking about the Mako.
EELightningMAKO makes a lot of sense for India, the hawk is old hat and needs to be updated…. good news if true..
Yeah, the Hawk is a fine jet trainer & with upgrades with the likes of avionics, weapons etc its up there at the top, however it lacks supersonic speeds & reheat to get a more of a feel for frontline supersonic jets. Enter the Mako.
If India are interested in the Mako, then it makes the Typhoon bid that bit more of what already is the better offer in my view.
EELightningSomething not directly related to the MMRCA competition buy maybe worth a mention:
NEW DELHI: India is swiftly moving towards inking another major deal for training aircraft to teach rookie pilots the intricacies of combat flying before it stitches up the over $10.4 billion (Rs 42,000 crore) project to acquire 126 top-notch fighters.
The Rs 2,900 crore deal for acquiring 75 Swiss Pilatus PC-7 turbo basic trainers is in the final stages now, with the “note” prepared for the Cabinet Committee on Security being “vetted” by the finance ministry at present, say defence ministry sources.
***
IAF, of course, is also progressively inducting British Hawk AJTs (advanced jet trainers), 123 of which were ordered in two contracts inked in March 2004 and July 2010 for a total of around Rs 16,000 crore, but they are meant for advanced combat training.
The article also states that the contract for the MMRCA will likely be signed by January-February.
With regards to an advanced jet trainer; it was mentiond in Combat Aircraft Montly that with EADS’ inviting India to become the 5th Eurofighter partner nation, it may involve India in the likes of the Mako supersonic jet trainer – as well as UAVs.
EELightningAs PPP mentions, its not unusual. Western European countries might be producing aircraft to take on Russian ones and like wise with Russia, but they’re keen to supply us with gas & we’re fine to buy it. We’re not going to have a punch up over anything.
This Israeli & Saudi situation is interesting though.
EELightningOriginally given to the four Chiefs of Air Staff from the Eurofighter Partner nations in 2003 at Type acceptance, the presentation of the famous steel Eurofighter Typhoon sword to customer air forces has come to symbolise the collaborative strength and partnership of the Eurofighter community and mark significant milestones along the lifetime of the programme.
EELightningNo, I asked where does India gain mor from? Developing own techs with foreign assistance (co-developments), or the production of foreign techs in India under ToT (outsourcing of the production)? Because the latter is what the EF consortium offers, techs that “they” developed for the EF, but have not get the necessary fundings would be produced in India. We get ToT and jobs of course, but the gain is mainly in terms of production, not in developing them and that’s why co-developments are better for India.
I asked it Scorpion recently as well, why the EF consortium didn’t offered a similar partnership in co-development of the Kaveri engine, like Snecma offers? They could have even combined it with the sale of EJ 200 engines for LCA MK2 + TVC and take that as a base for the Kaveri engine. India would have gained way more from such an offer, than from simple licence producing the EJ 200 in India right? And on the other side, it would have increased EFs chances in MMRCA way more too, but AFAIK, only the French and Russians offered such co-development opportunities.
The partnership offer at this stage is mainly to get the fundings and lower the
production costs of EF, while the benefit for India in terms of development is very limited. Actually, the only part where India would really be a partner of the development, is the naval Typhoon, that is offered completely to India and according to Indian requirements. But even that is a fake offer, since nobody, not even the initial partners wants that version and by the fact that India has already their own carrier fighter project running. Developing the naval Typhoon, is no advantage for India either, but at least we could be a real partner. :rolleyes:
As I say a lot of what Eurofighter GmbH is offering and what India gets in return is confidetial at this point, all we have to go by is what has already been published, the rest is speculation.
Question and rolleyes as much as one wants about the parnership, but officially it is reported that India will be a full member in this programme and what you say about lowering production costs and funding for the Typhoon, that is true, and its easily the same for Rafale, too. Believe it if you want or not. Thinking its “limited” is rather naive.
The Naval Typhoon situation is difficult to comment on especially when the Indian Navy are operating Mig-29Ks and have an order in for a few more. But who knows, its sketchy of what Eurofighter GmbH really wants concerning the Naval Typhoon.
As for the EJ200, all that I’ve personally came across is that Eurojet are keen to share single-crystal engine technologies. (I may have some other news laying about somewhere but can’t recall any more as of yet.)
EELightningYou might have missed the word “combat” in my post, because just as Kovy stated as well, flight hours are not always the same and there is a big difference in flying around at home for training, or peace time air policing, or in actual combat isn’t it?
Flight hours in ‘training for combat’, flight hours in ‘actual combat’…
We seldom hear from pilots that theres little, if any, difference between dropping bombs in training and in actual combat & they always go through the same procedures during training as they would in actual combat. Other wise they’d be badly trained…
True, but where does India gain more from? Co-developing arms and techs under Indian requirments like we are doing now with the French, or funding foreign techs of the EF and getting ToT in return?
It’s not like India will be an equal partner just like that, nor that Indian industry will be part of the upgrade developments. India mainly would fund the techs that the consortium is already developing (TVC, AESA, CFTs, HOSBO intgration) and will get parts of the production under ToT in return.
As long as the consortium don’t offer similar co-developments, the benefit is not that much different from what Dassault, Thales an co offers as well. Brazil seems to get the production of the wings and Switzerland of certain structural components, final assembly and maintenance and even parts of the development will be outsourced as well.
In both competition Rafale is said to be leading in terms of industrial offers, although the EF consortium offers more offsets in return than Dassault an co.
Of course such details are confidential, but you just need to have a look at what Eurofighter have published to get an idea of whats on the table, although a tip of the iceberg.
Indeed the Eurofighter consortium members will get more funding for their Typhoons, we all know that. But what does India get, you ask? Well, full partnership in the programme (this has been officially mentioned a number of times), it has also been reported that India will be involved in the likes of upgrades etc, and I quote from the words of Bernhard Gerwert: ‘Our ultimate objective is to win India as a key supplier, co-developing and co-producing future upgrades and enhancments, new sub-systems and software for the world-wide Eurofighter Typhoon fleet. To enable India to fully manufacture the Eurofighter Typhoon itself and to become a globally important and R&D partner, we are willing to offer a comprehensive Transfere of Technology package.’
India will also be getting 20,000 highly skilled jobs in return and also have opportunities to be potential partners in other military and civilian projects. A chunk of this deal is not just about buying an aircraft & thats it, India also want benefits to help boost their own aerospace industry & its what Eurofighter are offering.
EELightningIts not surprising that the Typhoon did. Eurofighter also reported in January that it could take off in all Swiss military airports fully loaded and without the use of afterburners.
The Swiss also thought it would be a good idea to evaluate the 3 aircrafts “footprint”…Whether they’re too “noisey” or not…Deadly serious. Not surprising really since they don’t allow any form of motorsport in Switzerland.
So when would Switzerland expect to take delivery of the winning aircraft?
EELightningIn technical terms I’m guessing as in likes of A/G capabilities (as in how both aircraft compare now) and not in terms of performance. Understandable.
Lets hope Dassault don’t mess this deal up like they have done with so many others.
EELightningAs posted on the MMRCA thread:
LONDON – With two flagship programs in the balance, EADS is awaiting formal government endorsement of both its Eurofighter Typhoon active, electronically scanned array (AESA) radar and Talarion unmanned aircraft endeavors.
The outlook for the two is slightly split, though. For the Typhoon AESA – deemed critical for the Indian Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft program, which is considering the Typhoon and Dassault’s Rafale – the prospects are internally seen as positive. “We are almost there,” says Cassidian chief executive Stefan Zoller. Since Typhoon buyers endorsed the effort, Zoller says it is “no concern anymore.” The money is being finalized and is expected to materialize.
EELightning@TooCool_12f, my mistake about Typhoon numbers, I got mixed up with the UK numbers. However I wasn’t having a dig at the Rafale & its flight hours flown compared to the Typhoon’s. Just merely pointing it out for the simple reason being is some people seem to think it doesn’t do much apart from airshows as well as lack some A/G capabilities. Indeed the Rafale has done rather well notching that number of hours, I wasn’t stating otherwise. However, it has been in service for around 10 years, around 3 years more than the Typhoon.
Yet again, indeed the Rafale is more multi-role than the Typhoon at the moment, I’ve never stated otherwise & I mention it quite often that it is when one talks about these two aeroplanes. For both aircraft it will very much come down to sales to the likes of India for these aircraft to meet their full potential anytime soon, but neverless I do believe they will both meet these requirments at some point in their life. As of now, the Rafale does have a lot of “gizmos” the Typhoon lacks, then again the Rafale lacks some “gizmos” the Typhoon has so a bit of it is a two way street.
Out of the four consortium members operating the Typhoon, despite them have physically the same aircraft their requirments seem to be quite different from eachothers’, the Italians for example seem to want their Typhoons primary for A/A tasks and the F-35 for A/G while still having some of the opposite capabilties at hand. The Spanish also seem keen to be going the same way, basically what they’re doing is is spreading about their capabilities over two aircraft, complimenting each other in other words. The Luftwaffe seem to be looking more at the multi-role side of things, and the RAF even more so at this point.
I very much doubt someone would scrap funding for the Typhoon to finance the F-35.
And speaking of investments:
LONDON – With two flagship programs in the balance, EADS is awaiting formal government endorsement of both its Eurofighter Typhoon active, electronically scanned array (AESA) radar and Talarion unmanned aircraft endeavors.
The outlook for the two is slightly split, though. For the Typhoon AESA – deemed critical for the Indian Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft program, which is considering the Typhoon and Dassault’s Rafale – the prospects are internally seen as positive. “We are almost there,” says Cassidian chief executive Stefan Zoller. Since Typhoon buyers endorsed the effort, Zoller says it is “no concern anymore.” The money is being finalized and is expected to materialize.
EELightningSadly for Australia they are very Amerocentric, For Australia the answer is the JSF now what was the question!!.
There was a competition in 2002, where all but the JSF was turfed out, the Eurofighter because it couldn’t guarantee capability and delivery by 2012. LOL but the JSF could?
So when the JSF which only existed in powerpoint form won, Eurofighter GmbH was not impressed, and the Dassault exec who was flying over to Oz to open their office only heard about it on landing!!.
So Oz waited and waited. and were full of praise for the JSF over the last 10 years and it was all fine and dandy… but had to buy Super hornets to cover the shortfall, and are now in the process of looking at a couple of dozen more super hornets and take that from the imagined JSF buy.
So the Air 6000 “competition” has cost nearly double or treble what Typhoon would have cost, and the group that has been responsible for all this are now under the spotlight for defence procurement mismanagement.
So no you won’t see Typhoons in Australia not because there not a great choice, but because it would prove incompetence from the top down.
Cheers
Yes, brings back memories now. Totally forgot about that “competition”.
I like how they thought the Typhoon couldn’t guarantee capability and delivery by 2012 but believed the F-35 could. I wonder if they still believe that? *Sniggers*
Thinking about it, all this talk about Australia saying they’re not going to guarantee buying the F-35 because of price, well, they seem rather too fond of it to let it go & I’ll be surprised if they do.
They’ve already shown their incompetence, no offence but they really have. Feel sorry for the RAAF chaps.
Edit:
Some other news about Typhoon and India: Its more political than anything, but hey.
Pitching for reforms of the UN Security Council to ensure it reflects geo-political realities, Germay on Tuesday said it was committed to supporting India’s bid for a permanent membership in the world body.
German ambassador to India Thomas Matussek said both India and Germany arecommitted to supporting each other in their bid for a permanent membership in the Security Council of which both are non-permanent members now.
***
He parried a question on the status of the MMRCA tender for which Eurofighter Typhoon, built by four nations, including Germany, has been short-listed.
“It has been kept confidential and kept in the right channels. I will refrain from making any public announcements,” he said.
Not giving much away then.
EELightning“With over 215 aircraft delivered and in service with six air forces, its is the world’s best selling next generation fighter jet.” (link)
Who’s right ? :rolleyes:
Well spotted, my mistake. Now, just waiting for someone to come along & say they’re the wrong sort of flight hours. :rolleyes: 😉
Sign In
