EELightningEver looked at what LM is asking for F-16 upgrades?
Thailand paid 700 millions dollars for 18 planes.
Woopy-doo.
So you’re saying that, instead of paying 450x500k€ = 225 millions euros to get both WVR and BVR missiles (their current Magic missile are at their end of life), they should pay 225×1 millions euros (current prices is 1 millions pounds, I included a volume discount…), pay for the integration and still have to buy short-range IR which will either be MICA or some cheaper Israeli stuff that they’ll have to pay for the integration too.
So they’ll have to pay an extra 100-200 millions to get a missile (meteor) that is not more effective than the MICA on the Mirage 2000 as the plane doesn’t have a alrge enough radar range nor a two-way datalink to validate the kill.
Great plan indeed.
The 450 Mica is part of the actual Mirage upgrade deal, is it not? If so then they could’ve made some sort of deal to introduce a more modern missile such as the Meteor, & maybe even ASRAAM or IRS-T if India would fancy a second one, certainly nothing wrong with having more than two types of A/A missile, after all just about every other Air Force has two or more types. Anyway, its pretty much irrelevent now since France/Dassault have left the Indians scratching their heads & thinking ‘why bother?’
“Great plan indeed” by Dassault…Whatever it really was…
@Scorpion82,
Thanks for explaining, interesting as always.
EELightningI couldn’t help but to agree, then. Given the fact that both aircraft are roughly equally old, the progess regarding adding multirole capabilities or weapons integration has been blatantly incompetent with the Typhoon. I know you are a Tyffie fan but even you have to admit that Rafales are several steps ahead – they already have a carrier version developed, more weapons integrated, are nuclear capable, routinely exercise A-G or Wild Weasel missions, and use ESA type radar which allows for smooth upgrade to AESA, compared to Captor. There are not many things that Typhoons have while Rafales lack.
Quite frankly, I can’t think of a single one out of my head.
Yeah, I would say the Rafale is ahead of the Typhoon in A/G, heck even the Tornado GR4 is. I’ve always thought that & I admire what the French have done with it – I always will. At this point of time it is ahead of the Typhoon in A/G but that isn’t to say the Typhoon wont catch up anytime soon, as I stated a few weeks ago (and sorry to repeat it once again), the RAF Typhoon fleet is to recieve the likes of Brimstone, Paveway IV & Storm Shadow in the next 3-4 years & theres been a couple of other little handy features planned or is in the process of being integrated onto RAF Typhoons via BAE Systems which hasn’t been widely reported, one which is an intelligence information ‘system’ about operational threats that is uploaded to the electronic warfare systems it has, things such as this is what a lot of people over look. Anyway, despite the Typhoon’s rocky past at times it’s also come along way since it was introduced into operational service a short while ago, I agree maybe some things could have been integrated earlier but I wouldn’t put the blame on the aircraft or programme itself & I wouldn’t say its makers were incompetent, but I would say the Partner Nations’ governments were of which have played apart of the lack of funding for a lot of capabilities. At the end of the day, the boffins at Eurofighter can come up with some weird & wonderful gizmos and tempt its Air Forces, then enter the government/political side counting the beans. Like any other programme, its fates’ lay in their hands.
One just needs to scratch away on the surface a little bit to find out what its recieving. The Meteor trials for example started off as a rumour before it was officially announced a short time ago.
Yes, I’ll be honest, I am rather ffond of the Typhoon just as I am of a lot of other aircraft, Rafale included along with the likes of the Lightning, Harrier, Viggen etc, but I’d never claim its something its not. Not like Bluewings claiming the Rafale is superior in EVERY way possible to the Typhoon of which the latter is just a jumped up Mirage…Which of course both claims are b*ll*cks! (*Expecting a reply because of that last bit*)
Anyway, I for one is glad the Typhoon is starting to pick up speed and getting some very good capabilities integrated such as AESA, Meteor, a wide range of A/G weapons, sub systems etc and just as importantly recieving a lot of positive support.
EELightning(Reuters) – Eurofighter Typhoon partner nations Britain, Germany, Spain and Italy will receive futuristic new helmets that will allow pilots to take aim at enemy craft just by looking at them.
…
British RAF pilots tested the first helmets last summer, and while they are not being used in Libya — where the Typhoon has flown its first combat missions — analysts believe the conflict is speeding up their roll-out.
…
“The helmet gives you the edge in a dogfight; the ability to see a target and lock onto it,” BAE test pilot Nat Makepeace told Reuters, adding that the helmet also improved situational awareness, crucial to fighter pilots.
So far 50 helmets have been delivered to the air forces of Italy, Germany, Spain and UK, with a delivery rate of about eight per month, Eurofighter spokesman Marco-Valerio Bonelli told Reuters. In the UK, they will be operational by the end of the year.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/24/us-airshow-helmets-idUSTRE75N52A20110624
250,000 pounds ($400,100) apiece? Do try not to drop it then. 😀
EELightningThat’s not correct the TRD is fitted to all Typhoon’s.
Didn’t the Luftwaffe Typhoons initially not have TRD fitted?
I’m not sure but I guess if the Indians would renounce the extensive TOT associated with the Mirage 2000 upgrade maybe the price would go down. Also maybe Dassault is more interested by a Rafale deal…
Well, its taken years to get the Mirage upgrade sorted & by what the Indians have more or less said; by time its been done the aircraft will be just about spent. Also, Dassault maybe be more interested in a Rafale deal for India but they do seem to be struggling with offsets, which has already been reported. And of which is pretty much the only news to come from them from this Air Show concerning the MMRCA competition. Which isn’t really positive thinking is it.
The pot calling the kettle black. :rolleyes:
When Eurofighter can do half the thing Rafale can do (trivial stuff like Destruction of Enemy Air Defenses, landing on a carrier), maybe it will be good value for money for the European Taxpayer.
Where does Eurofighter say the Rafale is not good value for money for the French taxpayer?
You’ve got to look at the bigger picture in terms of the likes industrial benefits for the European industry for one example, the Typhoon has brought a lot to it and has given the Partner Nations an aircraft they needed in the first place, meaning, before it entered operational service the Partner Nations’ aircraft were heavily one sided in the A/G department hence why A/A was a priority even though it was designed to be multi-role. It’s also brought a hell of a lot of highly skilled jobs to Europe, given the Air Forces a capable platform with a hell of a lot of growth/upgrade potential etc, little things like that that also need to be looked at, its rather ignorant to not think about those things & claim the same old nonsense saying of “not being good value for money for the European taxpayer”.
EELightningIts from the Eurofighter World magazine that was published on their site a few days ago. Worth a read.
EELightningWell, as nice as it seems, it’s only catching up on where Rafale has been for some time already. More than proving the Typhoon’s real weight it looks like a me-too jumping, at least to me.
But, of course, it’s positive news, no doubt 😉
I think Eurofighter stated those words because, apparantly, possibly during a press conference at the air show I imagine, the French made a comment about Eurofighter being an “example of incompetencies”, probably meaning a few things are yet to be integrated onto the Typhoon hence why they published their words on their site this morning. So I believe Eurofighter are just saying: ‘Hey, we’re going to be, are working with other companies to integrate the likes of AESA sooner than you want to think we are so don’t think we’re going to be with an aircraft 5 – 10 years time with same abilities it has today”.
I don’t think Eurofighter we’re or are trying to dis Dassault’s Rafale, actually on the contrary, they’ve actually stated a couple of positive statements about the Rafale in the past few days or weeks. They were just stating a few home truths about their own product while getting a little dig in about Dassault’s people.
I am reasonably certain that any more tech bells and whistles will not have any effect on the final decision. the downselect means IAF is confident that BOTH raffles and typhoid will meet its minimum technical requirements in due time.
from now on only overall cost, offsets and TOT will matter.
True. But I believe it would be fine to talk to India about potential future upgrades for the likes of AESA and how much ToT, involvment in producing it etc, so in a way things like that could still play a part.
I think unless Dassault offers massive ToT (like DCNS has wrt the Scorpenes) and sort out the Mirage deal the Typhoon will win this.
The Mirage deal certainly doesn’t help & it has seemed to leave a lot of Indian officials scratching theirs & thinking; ‘Why?’ And ‘Why so much of a cost?’
Something about the Rafale I like is the French publically stated willingness to let India use it for Nuke delivery.
Or in other words, freedom to do whatever they want with the aircraft. Same for the Eurofighter Typhoon, too.
Also the Germans worry me wrt to the Eurofighter deal, the Greens don’t want the sale to go ahead, they may try to disrupt things if they come to power.
If the deal is done for the Typhoon before they have a chance to get into power, then thats it, wether they like it or not they’ll just have to bite their fists & go through with it. Plus a clip around ear from the other 3, or 4 including India, Partner Nations and over 400 companies involved will make them think about it. Not to mention, Germany rely a lot on exports for their economy & a lot of parts produced will be off-loaded to India.
Still my head spins thinking about how much a future Rafale MLU would cost India.
Mine too. Sorry to burst your bubble & I know you’re an avid Rafale supporter but what gets me is, is the negative comments the French officials have made about the offsets for India and the price of the Mirage deal also makes me wonder about how much the Rafale would cost to buy and to upgrade. I remember when it was reported a while back when it was announced that the Rafale deal for 35+ aircraft for Brazil would be around $10 Billion…With a discount of $1 Billion. Wether thats true or not, who know, but one has to wonder of why Brazil and the UAE too for that matter have failed to sign up for the Rafale.
Don’t get me wrong, the Rafale is a fine aircraft & its something you’d want on your side just like you would with the Typhoon, but at this time in the MMRCA competition I think Dassault are going to find it difficult & struggle to match EADS’s offer. Hence probably why they’ve stated such negative comments about their own abilities and having a pop at Eurofighter of which, to be frank, pointless & a waste of effort.
EELightningThanks Quadbike & black shaheen for the links. The F-35 was never going to be in with a chance to enter the MMRCA competition let alone win it, anyway.
The Mirage deal just seems to be on another planet in terms of price etc. Its just bonkers if you ask me and I dare not think how much the Rafale would cost, its cetainly not as cheap as some people think it is or would like it to be. Also, for the Mirage, why on earth offer 450 Mica? Why not integrate Meteor? Its barmy! Not a good deal.
Anyway back to the MMRCA.
Funnily enough, Eurofighter’s competitors seem to be a bit nervous, and probably, also a bit worried about the achievements of the Typhoon which are proving to the markets the aircraft’s real weight.
Yesterday’s news about the signing of the Letter of Intent between the fourpartner nations, the United Kingdom, Italy, Germany and Spain, with Eurofighter and Euroradar consortiums to confirm the 2015 entry into service date of the next generation E-Scan radar of the Typhoon probably ruined the dreams of the French aerospaceindustry who have made some impolite claims about supposed superiority of their technology and programme management capabilities during this year’s show.
http://www.eurofighter.com/eurofighter-world/airshows-events/paris-air-show/le-bourget-blog.html
Oh, ouch! :diablo:
EELightningIf F-35 comes at the same purchase & operational cost as Typhoon/Rafale,
then i too, would pick F-35.
Nice joke! LOL…
…Oh no wait, you were serious…
Anyway, if the F-35 was at the same purchase & operational cost, I still wouldn’t pick it, as I said above.
EELightningI don’t think India would choose the F 35 for the MRCA even if its being offered now. I think IN may operate the B version at some stage.
India won’t allow F 35 to enter MRCA now, if IAF is genuinely interested what India would do is lag out the MRCA for sometime and then cancel it then buy F 35 through FMS.
I am just keen because something like the F 35 would be perfect for the MRCA (or even Rafale but that’s screwed thanks to Dassault’s handling of the Mirage deal) compared with the Typhoon.
Personally, I believe Dassault have got one hell of a fight on their hands going up against the likes of BAE Systems, EADS, Alenia Aeronautica, Cassidian etc, the Typhoon has a big, ruddy huge advantage there. But when did Dassault screw up the Mirage deal? I thought it was just about ready to be a done deal…Or have I missed something?
Could you post a link to a source for what you state, please? Thank you.
Its not that I think India ‘won’t choose’ the F-35 their MMRCA, I think that they ‘will not’ choose it. It’s way too late to enter it now and if it were to there’d be the most mightiest up-roar from the makers of the two shortlisted aircraft – and rightly so. However, I still even have doubts that India would even select the F-35 for the Indian Navy. As I’ve mentioned before on a few occasions, India will have a tough time with the F-35, not with the actual aircraft itself but with its makers and the US because of India’s very close ties with Russia and their aerospace industry, the US would just monitor India’s every move concerning the F-35 and I wouldn’t be at all surprised if sanctions came into play too. All in all, it’s just not worth the hassle IMO and theres a small handful although very capable Navalised aircraft out there on the market that would suit the Indian Navy & without having to worry about monitoring & sanctions that have the potential to accure.
As I say, its way too late for the F-35 to enter the MMRCA competition at this stage, or even at the earlier stage. Its too much of a risk and theres no solid promise of the price, time & date line of the thing.
plus it comes in a range of colours:)
The colours are just, ‘okay’ but I really like the Spanish, Saudi & German Typhoon colours. 🙂
EELightningFinally Confirmed
Press Release – Eurofighter and Euroradar confirm 2015 entry into service target date for the Typhoon new generation E-Scan radar
Wednesday, 22. June 2011
After one year of industry funding, the Eurofighter and Euroradar consortia have received renewed strong support from the Partner Nations and have agreed to continue the full scale development programme of the next generation E-Scan radar, confirming the 2015 entry into service date.
Supported by the Eurofighter partner nations: the United Kingdom, Italy, Germany and Spain, Eurofighter GmbH and Euroradar began full scale development of the new CAPTOR-E radar in July 2010.
EELightningOh! Look! Found something on an aircraft that is actually in the competition! *sarcasim*
What are the strategic potentials of a Eurofighter in India from an industrial point of view? Much depends on what India is able to do and can re-organize itself to do. If properly organized, India could shape a significant aerospace future and Eurofighter could become a key stimulant to such a future.
As the executive noted:
I think it’s fair to say that the proposal that we’ve made into India in terms of providing a Typhoon with the required capabilities is arguably 80 percent Indian requirements, 20 percent European requirements. So, they would influence considerably the future direction of the Eurofighter program.
http://www.sldinfo.com/?p=20472
Interesting…
EELightningTuesday, 21. June 2011
Squadron Leader Rupert Joel from RAF’s 11 Squadron, recently returned from operations in Libya and on behalf of Eurofighter provided a briefing on his experience of flying Typhoon as part of combat missions to the media and guests at Paris Air Show 2011.
EELightningTuesday, 21. June 2011
Squadron Leader Rupert Joel from RAF’s 11 Squadron, recently returned from operations in Libya and on behalf of Eurofighter provided a briefing on his experience of flying Typhoon as part of combat missions to the media and guests at Paris Air Show 2011.
Also about to be posted on the Eurofighter Typhoon thread.
EELightningUrgh, just as its about to get interesting, the thread turns into a F-35 one…
The US aren’t in the competition! Hence no need to discuss what they could offer to India with the F-35 – which wouldn’t be much anyway. End of!
EELightningOk Conspiracy theory time.
1. India rejected US contenders becuase the U.S was not offering their latest tech unlike the Europeans.
2. It had the desired effect with the U.S offering the F-35.
3. Its what India was waiting for in the first place, ordeirng MKI and LCA to bridge the gap for a few years and then getting the F 35 from 2018.
It would **** the Europeans of so much.
Please let it be true atleast for the lulz.
Well…The US types didn’t get through because they lacked, technically, behind the two that made the shortlist. However, theres certainly more to it, not only did they lack the likes of performance etc but also the US’s lack of support in the ToT & I’d bet any money if the US types did make it through – both of them & no other type – I’m sure as hell wouldn’t believe they’d let India have that much percentage in offsets. They’d twist it somewhere along the lines.
At the end of the day, India wants a top notch multi-role fighter with the likes of ToT, industrial benefits for their own aerospace industry etc, all with a generous price tag. Even with a “cheap” tag on their hats, the US types couldn’t even meet the technical trials let alone get through to the next area which was always going to play against them anyway. And even if the F-35 Almighty was ready & in service, they STILL would never have gotten the deal IMO. Simple fact of the matter is because of the same old story, lack of trust & commitment from the US side. They’re a victim of their own agendas.
So, lets just concentrate on the two that made it through & not some desperate, attention seeking “offer” from another.
Anyway…
Whats all this about then?
Dassault: India Set ‘Difficult’ Conditions on MMRCA
India has set demanding requirements for industrial offsets in its fighter contest but Dassault is ready to negotiate on the deals, executive chairman Charles Edelstenne said June 17.
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