EELightning@ EELightning: Low subsonic aircrafts do a better job at CAS than supersonic jet, it is a fact.
And from what you say yourself what was proposed to the IAF by the other contenders was mostly not yet operational promesses, while the rafale is offering an already developped and tested platform that only needs some upgrades, and not brand new functions to make it multi-role, or carrier capable, or whatever…
By the time the Typhoon is fully AtG capable in 2018, the rafale might be AtS capable (air to space, there is a project to use rafale to launch satellites in low orbite…).
And it makes sens to select 2 planes in order to make sure the price will be lowered to the maximum for competitivity.
Well, do you have anything that proves low subsonic aircraft do a better job at CAS than supersonic aircraft?
Looks as if the Typhoon will be getting more A/G capabilities sooner than we think, for the RAF at least. See my post above.
Well the other contenders, say the Boeing F/A-18 for example, offered a package that was to come with these so called “stealth weapon pods thingy-ma-jigs”, aircraft performance aside, reasons, or one of, why it didn’t get through is India wants share in R&D, ToT for future upgrades and the US & Boeing as we all know, are rather reluctant to share tech with their “closest ally” let alone with a country that has very close ties and a partnership with Russia. The US simply don’t offer these kind of deals, they lack trust IMO.
As I say, India want the likes of sharing R&D, ToT etc for future upgrades and for industrial benefits for their own aerospace industry. Ironically, despite being a little behind in the A/G department at the moment, it’ll probably benefit India’s aerospace industry to get the know how of upgrading it with help of the other four Eurofighter consortium members, well actually they would. The more that needs to be done the more you’ll have the chance to learn, as the saying goes. Funny how things turn out.
@Scorpian82, nice pictures. Thanks.
EELightningfanboyos wishes can’t fight facts! 😉
Ehm, thats your problem…
EE :
I meant superior aircraft with time compare to the Rafale .
So you mean once fully developed. Well in the A/A environment I wouldn’t expect the Rafale to be a better aircraft to the Typhoon in this area, and I mean overall. In the A/G environment I believe they’d be very comparable, it’d be quite difficult to pick between the two in my opinion. Do you take, both being top of the range, the latest Jaguar XJR saloon or the latest Jaguar XFR saloon? Tricky.
On a slightly different note: I was flicking through the latest editions of Military Aviation magazines very early this morning, didn’t buy any though, and came across a Typhoon piece about its A/G capabilties, due to the situation in Libya the Government has apparantly up’ed the funding for the RAF’s Typhoon fleet to bring them more up to speed concerning it’s A/G capabilities, according to a senior officer in the RAF, plans to intergrate Paveway IV, Brimstone and Storm Shadow in the next 3-4 years. I think this was in Air International…Or Air Forces Monthly…But anyway it was one of those and what was reported. So, nice.
EELightning@GoldanPawn, is there any point to your posts? Obviously not, whatever makes you feel better… Get a clue, you’ll be more respected on planet earth. :rolleyes:
A few things I’d like to point out if I may.
The Typhoon was created to be a air superiority fighter, and during the MMRCA trials was the only one to demonstrate true supercruise capability according to the IAF.
As such interception and air supremacy are going to be its primary role.
Actually the Typhoon was created to be a multi-role aircraft from the beginning. Air superiority was worked on first because its users had a lot more A/G aircraft (very good ones) than they did decent A/A aircraft, hence why they worked on its A/G capabilities later on.
For every other missions that are not air superiority, the typhoon is at a clear disadvantage. Its engine will suffer and consume a lot more fuel at low altitude than the secma, will fly to fast for CAS (unless the pilot tries the parachute:rolleyes:)
Really? Any proof of this. I doubt it. And “too fast” for CAS? Says whom? At airshows and joint formations at slow speeds it seems to look fine and, yes its very quick but nothing to stop it from going “too slow”. Besides, the Tornado GR4 is twice as fast as an A-10 – both built for low-level – yet at least the Tonka is on par if not better than the A-10 at CAS
Then you have the cost. I’ve been to lasy to look for germany’s, Italy’s and Spain’s figure, but as far as the UK is concerned £20 billion is a lot for only 160 planes (and yes that’s factual). 75% overcost is a rape and someone should be in front of a court for that. Now the same clowns who said the Typhoon would be costing 75% less that what it is costing now say that supporting the aircraft will only cost about £13 billion up to 2030… well I guess we will have to wait and see…
Probably because the German, Italian and Spainish Governments haven’t miffed up the programme a little bit like the British Government has and its whole defence for that matter? Maybe looking for Germany’s, Italy’s and Spain’s figures may be worthwhile. Austria’s and Saudi Arabia’s might be handy too.
Finally the IAF already has the MKI + Pakfa for air superiority, and M2000 + Tejas for interception, and I don’t think the Typhoon can fill the gap as a workhorse. You need a plane capable to do it all, and so far only the rafale has proved itself as such.
So far the Rafale has proved to be more capable, as of now than the Typhoon in A/G but the Typhoons on offer to India aren’t the current variants in service (too many people have got it into their heads that they are). The Typhoon Tranche 3s offered to India will be more or less fully multi-role capable so why wouldn’t it? The IAF obviously speak very highly of it so I guess they even know it better than we do. And if it couldn’t fill the gap then even more obviously, it wouldn’t had made the shortlist.
EELightningWhy would India buy the Typhoon ?
Do they truely believe that it is going to be the superior aircraft with time ? I don ‘t thinks so , they know better .
Do they want the UK to be a stronger partner , knowing that the UK will never be let down by the USA , so good political repercussions and ties will be maintained ?
Well the aircraft alone, they obviously think it’ll fit rather well within the IAF otherwise it wouldn’t had made the shortlist. According to various and reliable sources the IAF pilots speak very highly of the Typhoon, it seems to fit in very well indeed with their current fleet of aircraft according to what was reported in Air International when the RAF and IAF got together in the UK and India (this is in the Typhoon’s current form I might add), and it’d undoubtedly fit in and work very well with the likes of PAK-FA/FGFA and the Tejas aircraft etc.
Superior aircraft with time? You said you don’t think so…I’m not sure I understand what you mean…Could you explain a little more, please? Do you mean it won’t be superior in the future to what it is now, or?…
Sure, India would get a stronger partner with the UK, especially in the aerospace industry, BAE Systems are certainly a company to have a partnership with. They would also with Germany, Italy and Spain too. Its four big, heavy players and one with the biggest defence company in Europe by quite a margin, i.e UK with BAE Systems. With these countries that have some fantastic defence companies with incredible resources to their name, and offering India a full up front 5th member of the partnership in the Eurofighter Typhoon programme, (and opening the doors for partnership in future projects) it’s quite something, it’s certainly tempting. For the Typhoon, this is a big, a very big, massive plus!!! Not to be forgotten that India want industrial benefits, know how, stuff like that, they’d be getting a lot more if they choose the Typhoon.
The price issue; it’s a very complicated issue I must say. It’s not for the aircraft themselves but for the likes of how much it takes to maintain in the future etc, that kind of stuff, a lot of people tend to forget that bit. It’s not as simple as it seems to be. Sure the Mig-35 is cheap to buy per aircraft but you’d want to keep a few quid in the piggy bank to keep it going in the future. I’m not too sure about Rafale, I for one is rather suspect of it’s price, the talk of what the price was/is in Brazil even with, apparantly, a “discount” of $2 billion yet still looked too much to pay is abit off putting, although to be fair I’m suspect of the sources that reported it, too. I regard the Rafale a wonderful aircraft but I do not believe it is cheap, not as cheap as some believe it to be. The Typhoon’s price, well, to be honest I’m not sure what to think of it, with EADS offering a partnership amonst other things to India they’re probably more likely to be in a better position to bring the price down or come up with some sort of deal, agreement regarding the matter, who knows. I’ll mention it again, Air International reported a rumour that Eurofighter offers a favourable price, this rumour came from the same unanimous person(s) that mentioned these two aircraft were in a favourite position to be shortlisted. They were certainly spot on about that thats for sure.
But regarding the price, I’m not sure we’ll ever know in the near future.
EELightningthey keep the europhoons as white knight to down the prices !
is there a “M” for Multirole into MMRCA? :D;)
You obviously haven’t a clue which Typhoon EADS is offering. Oh dear… :rolleyes:
Anyway…
Was wondering. Does anyone know why the Rafale has a Kevlar nose cone? I’ve tried having a look around on the net but haven’t found anything that features a good reading session. Was just wondering because the Typhoon’s nose cone is made of Glass Reinforced Plastic, quite interesting why they both opted for different materials.
Thanks in advance.
EELightningJust a quick reply…
Actually, the Typhoon may have suffered from too much brain power…
working in different directions!:(
I very much doubt it.
EELightningThe RAF has destroyed rocket launchers and Scud-missile containers in Libya, the Ministry of Defence has said.
Two Tornado fighters targeted a FROG-7 weapons system – which can fire rockets more than 40 miles (64km) – near the city of Sirte on Friday.
EELightningThanks or the feed back, Bluewings. I wasn’t aware that the nose cone (and a piece at the rear) was made of Kevlar. New to me. Strength and cost aside, it’d be interesting to know why one opted for Kevlar and the other for Glass Reinforced Plastic for the nose cone, obviously having a preference.
The probe “looks” to be made of carbon fibre, on the outside at least. If you look at an F1 car, they look like a bit of wind would blow it to bits but looks are just that, looks. Way stronger than they look.
Although, I really have to disagree with you that the Rafale will detect the Typhoon first, with respect of course. Theres no proof of it to do so and it is just pure speculation on the RCS difference, other than that theres simply not enough information published by either maker about their aircrafts RCS. If it really could detect the Typhoon first then Dassault Aviation would have went on & on about it during sales pitches. But its your opinion which is fine by me personally. My opinion is that the Typhoon is likely to have a better advantage with a bigger AESA -swashplate- radar coupled with Meteor and greater supersonic capabilities and between a fully developed Typhoon, say for example the proposed 2020 variant, theres very little difference in their A/G capabilities, I also believe that Eurofighter GmbH has a way better overall offer on the table for India, some may disagree but that’s cool with me.
About the ’designed to survive point’ you made, well I’ve got a bit of news for you and may come to a bit of a shock to you, but the Typhoon was designed to survive too, as was Tornado, as was the F-35 and F-22…And the SU-35, F-15, F-16, F/A-18, Mig-35, PAK-FA, J-20, Mirage, J-10, Tejas…Hercules, E3 Sentry, Nimrod etc and so on. They’d be pretty useless at their jobs if they couldn’t wouldn’t they.
Hopefully, something about the MMRCA competition soon because this topic is going way.
EELightningWhy don’t we all just get along, if one believes in something then let it be, everyone has their opinions on many things, such as myself, I believe Eurofighter GmbH has the overall better offer on the table, some others may disagree, up to them if they think different, just as long as we can have a friendly, intelligent discussion with a little humour in it every now and again, of which is harmless. It gets boring after a while when members such as GoldanPawn comes along with nothing interesting to say but mindless, misinformed gibberish.
Anyway.
Someone mentioned something earlier about the Rafale’s re-fueling probe, what its made of and its strengthes etc…
I’m not 100% sure of what its made of but off the top of my head but I’ll give it a go. The plumbing part (the pipe bit) is likely to be made of a metal, a type of tough, lightweight alloy. The pieces that surrounds it are, I believe, (may need a correction on this) something like carbon-fibre. Someone else mentioned that carbon-fibre may be too flimzy to take the treatment for air-to-air refueling. Not necessarily. If I may I’d like to turn the attention to Formula 1, or to be more specific, an F1 car’s push rods, (suspension, the things that hold the wheels to the chassis etc). These push rods are made of carbon fibre, very lightweight, very strong – expensive. They’re actually designed to take massive impacts from the side and still stay intact to a certain extent, yet still, an average built guy could easily put his hand on top of it and easily push down and break it with very little effort, they were designed like this meaning their strenght is consentrated in particular areas but also designed to break, too. Of course the re-fueling probe on the Rafale isn’t designed to break in the same way but the consentrated strenght is probably done in the same way – although in a “push ‘n’ pull” kind of way, while its actually locked onto the drouge. If the drouge gets stuck onto and can’t un-lock itself I imagine the probe is designed to break off in case of such situation.
You can wake up now I’m done…I feel like James May when goes off on a rant. 😀
Actually, how much of the Rafale is made up of Carbon Fibre Composites, any specs available? The Typhoon is made up of 70% Carbon Fibre Composites, 15% lightweight alloys and titanium, 12% Glass Reinforced Plastics and 3% other materials.
Relating to the MMRCA competition, or maybe. Theres an image in Air International, April edition, of the all contenders lined up along side eachother at Aero India, picture taken on a slight angle, 2x Rafales nearest the photographer, then 2x Gripens, 2x F-16s, 2x F/A-18s and 2x Typhoons at the other end. Even though the Typhoons are at the far end at a greater distance, the Typhoon’s nose cone still looks bigger.
The other point I’d like to make. BAE Systems revealed in February that changes have been proposed to the Saudi Al Salam programme to supply 72 Eurofighter Typhoons to the Royal Saudi Air Force. Initially 48 Typhoons were due to be assembled in a new facility in Saudi Arabia. Apparantly they’re now going to be assembled in Warton. I’m not a “conspiracy theorists” or anything like that but maybe this has something to do with the Indian MMRCA competition? After all, the market in India is a hell of a lot bigger than it is in Saudi Arabia and maybe BAE Systems would prefer to move some of their facilities to India than they would Saudi Arabia? Funny how they didn’t or haven’t revealed the full details of why…Just a thought.
EELightningThis “stealth” debate is a little…*yawn*. Right yeah, both have had slight reductions but they’re still not “stealth” aircraft. Its very difficult to compare the two in this area, its like getting two current F1 cars, a Ferrari and a Mercedes & asking, ok, which is more aerodynamic? Hmmm pointless to pick if your name isn’t Adrian Newey
That is indeed something that is striking. There are almost 3 times more Typhoon pilots on the planet but they don’t talk very much about their Rafale encounters whereas they are quite vocal about their combats against US vintage teens.
Don’t get too excited in the trouser department, it doesnt prove anything at all. Off the top of my head, theres about 3-4 cases of engagements with US types that have been reported, and when I mean US types I mean from the USAF, not other air forces. The RAF at least, Typhoons go up against Tornados and Harriers when they were in service, other air forces F-5s, F-16s, F-15s, F-18s, MK1s, Mirages, Harriers, Tornados, Phantoms and god knows what else, (probably more than the Rafale has been up against), yet have they talked about those engagments? Nope. Rafales were in the UK twice last year and nothing has been said about that, from either side.
EELightningfixed it for ya 🙂
What, me? Noooooo. Ta for remembering me anyway. lol 😉 All we need now is the infamous Sferrin and pfcem to join. There, one big happy family. 😀
EELightningSooner or later someones going to say: ‘Okay, which fighter will better handle a J-20 and J-10, a Typhoon or a Rafale?’
Someone will say Rafale, probably GoldenPawn and say the Typhoon is just a cold war relic just to make himself feel happy thus making him sleep at night in turn thinking to himself; ‘I’m so full of $h*te I believe in what I think.’
Someone else will say its a Typhoon because its better suited to A/A, better AESA radar making more of a use for Meteor.
And then before we know, these two aircraft are being pitted against each other once again in a VS thread leaving the poor little Chinese fellas sitting & waiting to get a mention.
It will happen….Oh wait, it ready has been mentioned. See, told you so. 😀
Edit: Oh and an odd post by Scooter claiming a US type will win the MMRCA competition and claiming his beloved types will simply be superior to the Euro types. 😀
EELightningPictures tell more than thousand words, but that doesn’t prevent some people from denying things until someone “trustable” says so. Quite weird this kind of behaviour!
I would’ve thought the Typhoon’s AESA having about twice as many modules would’ve given some people a bit of an idea of how big it is. Like you say, quite weird.
P.S. Thanks EEL for the feedback.
No problems.
Just to add, Taygibay. Also forgot to mention, when Eurofighter GmbH were at Aero India they had a scaled model of a Naval Typhoon with CFTs’ on display in front of screen, showing it land and taking off from an aircraft carrier.
Could be rather quite likely the Typhoon on offer to India will feature CFTs’.
Those external fuel tanks look a little bigger and “pointier” than the ones being used now, do they not?
EELightningTell you what EEL, if you link the last part of your message to the first,
I can spew forth this effort in favor of the Typhoon :Getting those CFTs ASAP might be a game-changer!
Issues about Taurus’ volume and size notwithstanding,
the added fuel capacity would make every weapon on
the EF way more potent/useful and open configs wildly.We have a cult following on those in the Rafale community
but I really believe that you guys should push to get them first!Have they gone further than those aerodynamics testing models, BTW?
Dassault had mock-ups made to test the aerology although they
are not even to be ordered yet.
Flew right over my head. How could have not mentioned it, thanks for reminding me.
I’m not aware of any more testing been done, I’m guesing there has been, for reasons I’ll explain in just a second. Concerning CFTs’ for both aircraft they’re both probably coming along around the same time, & likely coming along just fine in testing.
Anyway, the reasons why I believe Eurofighter GmbH have stepped up their testing for the CFTs’. In November 2010 Eurofighter GmbH proposed the Typhoon to Turkey designated ‘2020’, this advanced version is said to be based on the Tranche 3 standard featuring AESA, thrust vectoring control, campatibility with a number of A/G weapons one of those being Storm Shadow/Scalp cruise missile and, with CFTs’.
At the IDEX show in Abu Dhabi in February 2011, Eurofighter GmbH displyed an artist’s impression of how the Typhoon ‘2020’ could look in UAEAF service. They, Senior Eurofighter sources suggested that: “The Omani Tranche 3A aircraft would support the ‘2020’ configuration.” They also reported that the aircraft would now feature the ability to carry various glide-bombs and the RBS-15/III anti-ship missile and would be offered with DASS and MIDS.
Just to remind, the Typhoons India would purchase, or produce/manufacture I should say, will be Tranche 3. So its quite possible that CFTs’ would be added. Its even possible that they have already been offered since they have been proposed to Turkey and looks as if they have been proposed to the UAE and Oman, maybe even to Qatar too since it has been reported that they were expected last month (April) in the UK for an evaluation of the Typhoon. Pity for us we don’t get to know too much of what has been offered all the time. Blast!
EELightning@GoldenPawn. Wow, you’re quite something, when asked to provide a source when you’re clearly and totally wrong, you don’t, but when you do provide a “source” it happens to be that of the Mirror of which don’t even know their own ar$e from their elbow 99.9% of the time. But hey, if it makes you happy in your little dream world with your silly little, clueless comments then go ahead, it makes laughable reading for the rest of us, even to the French, I really do feel sorry for them. :rolleyes:
Anyway, sorry everyone else.
Talking about the prices and L1 etc. Which one being dearer or cheaper than the other, I think its closer than most of us actually think & I really don’t believe that the L1 is just price per-aircraft, but overall of everything whats on offer, a package deal, of which in this particular competition is what it is, really. One may look more expensive on paper initially and looks to favour the other but its the long term that also counts. To look at, Dassault’s bid for the Rafale maybe cheaper than EADS’ initially, but as some have pointed out, could be more expensive to upgrade as far as weapons is concerned, most MBDA types of which as Scorpion82 ‘more or less’ pointed out, are already slated for the Typhoon. EADS’ bid for the Typhoon may look more expensive at first but may be cheaper in the long run to upgrade & all. It’s complicated stuff to think about let alone speculate. Air International reported recently in the April issue magazine that “Eurofighter’s bid offers a ‘favourable price’ with an invitation by EADS for India to join the Typhoon programme as a partner.” (I must point out that this rumour came from the same unaminous person(s) that “informed” them about the shortlisted aircraft in early April before it was officially announced.) What is meant by ‘favourable price’, one could maybe look at it at different ways of what it actually could mean but it will most certainly suggest that the price is closer than most think it is.
On a technical and overall package deal & where support is concerned, not being biased, I’d certainly choose the EADS’ offer of the Typhoon, without a doubt. I’ll always maintain they have the better deal on the table. But thats not to say that Dassault’s is a bad deal, nothing of the sort at all. EADS’ just looks the more attractive offer.
Where price is concerned, and I mean only the price, nothing else. Well, I’d make sure I’d have a crate of painkillers next to me because its a very complicated matter. Its okay saying go for the cheapest bid but let me tell you, its a whole lot way easier said than done.
We’ve got almost a year to wait and see what happens.
Has there been any more news about MBDA in India?
And @Scorpion82, do you have any info to read about the Typhoon’s CFTs? Would be much appreciated. 🙂
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