EELightningI would agree that if it could get there with the two tanks and the RAIDS pod that it would have a good chance of doing it or something close to it with the 8x AA missiles and the tanks, but that would be a heavier and draggier load. (and I wouldn’t rule out completely the possibility that the Typhoons weren’t always flying with tanks).
Going by the images from Red Flag ’13, the aircraft were operating with their stations attached that are normally used for the ASRAAMs, if the missiles were added I doubt they’d have a noticeable impact on drag.
As a side note, I don’t get the references to a Typhoon being “clean” with 6x AA missiles. Certainly the 4 conformal missiles will add negligible drag, but the two out on the wing count. They won’t add a great deal of drag, but the aircraft isn’t clean.
During the days of the developments the aeroplanes had a configuration of 6x A/A missiles (or Dummies) most, if not all, the time such one sees today even when they weren’t necessary to any particular trials, for example flight trials of Storm Shadow recently. One can think of such a configuration is just apart of the airframe itself, their definition of a “clean” aeroplane.
EELightningI would be interested in seeing the source for this. If you are referring to this article:
…then it never explicitly gives a load out to go with the quote about taking shots from 45k ft at M1.6. Later in the article, in a caption, it states that Typhoons flew only with drop tanks and a RAIDS pod. (Though clearly load outs must have varied because at other points they referred to the use of targeting pods.)
Indeed. There was another source stating the 40k+ft at Mach 1.6+ figures was a report by Mark Ayton via AIR International, a few issues before the current Typhoon Supplement release, and a short time after Red Flag ’13 had finished, which particular volume/issue though I’m not certain. I believe one must take note with regards to the particular caption of Typhoon’s configuration in the report of Combat Aircraft, the link you kindly posted just now, a RAIDS pod and 2x Drop Tanks with no armament on-board is still quite a load to operate at such a high Mach at that kind of altitude, of which the aircraft will find rather easy to fight with, especially taken into account that a “clean” Typhoon is an aircraft considered to be with 6x A/A Missiles (no Drop Tanks) and is regularly seen on IPAx units regardless of what other weapons or tanks they’re carrying. If the Typhoons at Red Flag ’13 had the weight of 8x A/A missiles on-board I doubt it’d struggle to reach Mach 1.6, given that ASRAAM is as streamlined as can be and the 4x AMRAAMs are semi-recessed.
EELightningUuuurgh, same old sh*t, different day…
First off, with such a Swing/Multi-Role configuration (2-3x Drop Tanks, 4-6x 1,000lb LGBs, 4x AMRAAM/Meteor and 2x ASRAAM/IRS-T) the Typhoon isn’t going to get any further than Mach 0.9, if anywhere near at all, due to the LGBs not being Supersonic, simple. Further more, such a configuration limits the Typhoon to a maximum of 5.5g.
Secondly, with an A/A configuration (2x Drop Tanks, 4x ASRAAM/IRS-T and 4x AMRAAM/Meteor) Typhoon is capable to launch BVR shots off at Mach 1.6+, which they demonstrated (simulation, obviously) during Red Flag ’13 to the surprise of those whom attempted to claim simulated kills of the Typhoons themselves, only to be “Slayed” in the process.
Thirdly… This was an F-35 thread the last time I looked…
EELightningIt would probably simplify Meteor integration. F-15E’s have used CFT’s with bomb racks since the beginning. EF2K has plenty of locations to hold bombs, they need room for fuel and missiles. I’d venture to guess you aim for 1000L per CFT. You still have room for Storm Shadow, underwing drop tanks, outer wing ASRAAM and perhaps a centerline station. Adding AMRAAM/Meteor to the CFT’s means no real loss in capability.
Just a quick reply; flight to catch…
MadRat, 1,500l per CFT on Typhoon, (or 3 External Drop Tanks worth). In my opinion, as long as they’re fitted I see no reasons to go back to Drop Tanks, apart from maybe on the Centre Station whenever needed.
EELightningI personally still think there is a gap left from retiring the Tornado which Typhoon can’t fill (RAPTOR being one aspect).
Like I said earlier… *Scroll up a bit.*
The F35b won’t be in the UK in numbers until after 2020, and they are talking about retiring Tornado long before that….
2019 is the given retirement date, last year it was announced that the F-35B will start to be introduced in 2018, of which one is rather sceptical about. A lot is dependant on what, or how many, Tornado’s capabilities Typhoon can receive before then but most of the Tornado’s future relies on the F-35B and given the latter’s development, Tornado could be with us a little longer.
just not as soon as Typhoon gets cleared with Stormshadow. Brimstone is slated for 2017 isn’t it? Around the time Tornado is due to retire, but long before we have enough F35s to be useful.
Brimstone depends on the progress of the Phased Enhancements Typhoon is currently going through, it could be brought sooner like Storm Shadow has, who knows.
EELightningBack in the day when the Rafale was the firm favourite and preferred choice in the UAE, when other contenders were quite distant as an alternative, Dassault were rather vocal on a few occasions about coming out with a signed contract, some were direct, some were via reliable sources. That’s not a bad thing at all in my opinion, it’s just how it is, all I’m getting at is that the British camp haven’t declared anything that would suggest they’re expecting anything with regards to a signed contract as some sources (unreliable, Torygraph etc.) have suggested, despite their aggressive marketing campaign.
.
Today, as usual, Dassault barely communicates, which is quite annoying sometimes. On the other hand BAE and EADS are quite aggressive as far as marketting is concerned. I mean, just take a look at the last issue of EF World which is obviously targeting the UAE market.
Which is what usually happens, Dassault were just as aggressive before they fell to Earth with a bump.
EELightningaha! so if the RAF has a bigger fleet of Stormshadow capable (CFT fitted) Typhoons it increases the chances of early Tornado retirement eh?
Clever…. very clever…..
In my opinion, not necessarily. If I may hazard another opinion I’d say the Typhoon will replace the Tornado to an extent, the likely scenario will probably be that both fleets will share most A/G capabilities with the latter’s number steadily reducing while more sufficient numbers of Typhoons will start to be introduced while the remaining Tornados will be replaced by the F-35B. If the Typhoon completely replaced the Tornado there’d be a risk the former could be the sole fast jet type in operational service due to the still developing F-35. The RAF don’t want one type across the board, so to speak, the future of RAF fast jets (excluding unmanned) is a combination of Typhoon and F-35.
EELightningThe French camp prepared a huge bowl of popcorn and is enjoying the show. :stupid:
With a contract for additionnal F-16 is on the way + integration of local weapons on Mirage, I don’t see exactly what BAE is doing there.
If that’s the case then why are Dassault still there making noise about it? Or is there a conspiracy from the French camp to stir up a story in a hope to make the British think, ‘Yeah, actually why are we here, lets just leave it.’ which will give a free sprint for the French camp to jump in while the Brits pack their bags? Sounds like it.
Where’s Nic when we need him, he’s into Conspiracy Theories, isn’t he.
:dev2:
Yep, after years of discussion, Dassault hoped for a signature after all.
But if they’d have been as courteous as French Government Officials then maybe they’d be at an advantage, well not maybe, they would have been.
EELightningYou are quiet correct, non did officially. This did not prevented a certain press however, citing un-named and off the record sources, to claim so . A rather similar pattern to what occurred in France.
Indeed, certain Press Releases jumped the gun but they’re hardly official since the named British Official(s), both government and defence, made it abundantly clear, officially, that the negotiations at the Dubai Air Show were not about a final Typhoon contract. I recall that Dassault were rather officially vocal about coming out with a contract the past two years or so.
EELightningMeanwhile, behind the scenes.*
LM: Japan, buy our F-35A so you can kill South Korea!
LM: South Korea, buy our F-35A so you can kill Japan!
South Korea: Wait a second… what! That’s not fair!
:dev2:
EELightningI’d like to know about the feasibility of retrofitting current Typhoons for CFTs.
Tranche 2 Typhoons haven’t the extensive modifications needed for CFTs, actual plumbing, fuselage attachments etc. compared to the Tranche 3s but the areas have been produced with the CFTs in mind. As far as I know, Tranche 1 Typhoons haven’t been produced with CFTs in mind.
EELightningjust transmit the paper, up to you to draw your own conclusions 😉
If the British had gone in all guns blazing shooting statements claiming they’re going to come out at the end with a signed contract I wouldn’t state what I said earlier, the simple fact of the matter is, they went in knowing a contract wouldn’t be signed. No need to draw one’s own conclusion to put one’s mind at ease, that’s what desperate people do when they don’t want to hear anything that conflicts with their own agendas.
EELightning…
It looks a rather desperately rushed written report, and it’s not the dodgy Google Translation. It seems as though it’s trying to say the British were expecting a Typhoon contract to be signed during the Dubai Air Show ’13 and that they’ve made the same errors Dassault previously… Couldn’t be more further from the truth! No British official, be it PM David Cameron, Defence Secretary Philip Hammond nor any representatives from BAE Systems or anyone from Eurofighter GmbH, have stated they’re expecting a contract to be signed for a number of Typhoons. A BAE Systems official has gone on record and stated that best possible outcome would be a signed contract but also stressed that this was highly unlikely at this point due to other areas of negotiations, there for it would be unwise to push for anything to be signed at this time. It has also be reported that BAE Systems do not want to rush talks with UAE Officials.
Sounds like someone from the French camp wants them to make the same mistakes they did. They ought to worry about making it up with the UAE Gents rather than want the competition to make a wrong move, get on the wrong side of those and you’ve got a lot of sucking up to do!
EELightningMrMalaya, there’s no worries at all, don’t worry about it, just a misunderstanding. 🙂
Typhoon1, indeed with the wet stations taken up with Storm Shadows the aircraft will only be able to carry a single External Drop Tank to rely on as well as internal fuel, this, as has already been pointed out will be a drawback, but not a major concern. The point you made about the Middle East being a small area for such a stand-off configuration/capability might be valid but up until a point one must stress. The hot and humid conditions must be taken into serious account as such an environment calls for any aircraft to work harder than it normally does in less harsher conditions. Such hot and humid environments have an affect on performance, less power, heavier breathing for the engine(s) if one will, and with heavy Storm Shadows on-board the performance drops somewhat making the aircraft work that bit more harder of which, all has an affect on fuel efficiency: Hot conditions, breathing harder, additional engine(s) work load, less fuel efficiency equates to less range overall – and that’s before we mention drag coefficients and additional weapons and other sensors and such on board the aircraft. Extra fuel is needed, basically.
With regards to CFT (Conformal Fuel Tanks), one believes it’s a matter of not if we’ll see them operational, but one shall see them operational. Tranche 3 units are/will be CFT capable – you can see the attachments for them on the rear fuselage of the current Tranche 3 Typhoon, Laurie Hilditch (Eurofighter GmbH Official) has stated recently that we’ll see fitted within the next two year, roughly the same time frame sufficient Storm Shadows (and maybe even Taurus’ too for that matter) are available for the Typhoon fleets of the Royal Air Force and Italian Air Force. To summarise, one cannot go without CFTs when operating with the likes of Storm Shadow or Taurus, it’s possible of course, but they’re needed. 3,000 litres of Conformal fuel with free stations is a no brainer.
EELightningStorm Shadow laden Typhoon its all getting very meteoric ! oh, wait a minute thats not fully integrated yet.
One seems to remember when you were wondering why, and when it’d start the flight trials with Storm Shadow not so long ago. Well, here you go. I’ll hazard a guess you’ll reply with ‘Well, it might not actually be fully integrated or even see service with Typhoon…’. I’ll reply with: ‘Typhoon is going to replace the Tornado GR4 in RAF service, according to Station Commander Ian Gale, also according to the most recent reports full integration is planned for ’15. Go figure, the answers are right in front of you.
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