EELightningSo in 2008 the Typhoon was as good as the Hornet in a2a. :rolleyes:
And only just slightly better today. Slightly meaning, as much as it makes no difference…
…I call that chart nonsense.
EELightningWe’ll come across various pieces of reports stating which variant of Gripen the Swiss will select. We’re coming across various of sources stating one or the other and as much as I’d like to speculate, I’ll wait until Saab/Swiss announce in an official statement via a press conference of some sort.
You can also find many sources stating the Typhoon scored higher, too. Question is which ones have better credibility.
EELightningNo offence but if the Rafale was the best fighter money can buy, Dassault would have a shed load of orders despite the latter’s ability the make a potential deal to go **** over t*t.
EELightningWho knows, afterall Rafale (allegedly) scored higher than Typhoon in Switzerland. But that was the case in any other competition, so nothing new.
Maybe so. Allegedly the Typhoon scored higher than Rafale in India. The scores represent the requirements for the individual’s air force, whats fine for one doesn’t necessarily mean it’s fine for another.
EELightning@USS, oh c’mon. Give it a rest.
It won’t?
I was meaning the Typhoon and Rafale. It might not have any affect but just wondering if it might, if so what it (or they) could be.
EELightningWith Switzerland selecting the Gripen, I wonder how this affects the Indian MMRCA?
One has to wonder how Dassault feels about their chances – not only in Brazil, but India and the UAE? They’ve got one hell of a tough fight in India with EADS, their chances of winning in the UAE are not impossible, neverless, their chances are greatly reduced and IMO I’m not that optimistic they’ll win there, Brazil was quite shaky anyway and with Gripen winning in Switzerland I’m sure Saab now fancy their chances more than ever in Brazil. Despite being dropped from the Indian tender, they’ve still managed to hit the ground running. Credits due where its due.
Now with 5 orders under the Gripen’s belt, I’m surprised they’ve been overlooked as much as they have been.
EELightningWeldone to the Gripen. For Switzerland’s requirements, I think they’ve made the better overall choice. The Gripen is as good as you can get without folking out a shed load of cash for something one may find a bit too overkill. The Typhoon, IMO, would’ve most certainly been way too overkill especially if it came with Captor-E and also wanted Meteor. That’d be like buying Sebastian Vettel’s RB7 Formula 1 car to run on a karting circuit.
The Rafale would’ve also been a good choice for Switzerland and as I understand it, they (Dassault) were in a very good, very positive position to win in this country. Maybe the price difference between this fighter and the Gripen was significant, but I think it would’ve been worth it for Dassault to try and bring the price down a bit, but for 20+ plus aircraft, this would’ve been quite a challenge but a worth while one neverless. Pretty much anything to get a first order and hit the ground running for the next potential customer. Just confirms that the Rafale isn’t as cheap as many believe it to be, and probably puts Dassault’s reputation deeper in the sh…Doo-doo.
As I say, the Gripen is the better choice for the Swiss Air Force and is a much needed boost for Saab and their NG variant. This deal also puts their fighter in a strong position in Brazil and quite possibily, a more favourable position than any other fighter in that competition.
EELightningNo offence, but I think you underestimate french politicians.
Nic
None taken. Its not the politicians I’d be concerned about, it’s Dassault. (If I were French)
EELightningD’you reckon?
I’d be worried about the additional chance of politicians getting involved over other matters down the line.
More countries = more politicians = increased chance of ****-ups.
Whereas the Rafale comes from a single country, with reduced f**kwit overhead accordingly.
As is what the French and Dassault & Co keep honking their horn about. Mind, French politicians & Dassault can’t even communicate over a deal with the UAE so they’ve got room to lecture.
Besides, India would work through with Eurofighter GmbH, not countries on an individual basis.
EELightningIndeed, what can possibly go wrong?
…
:diablo:
If you want to sell fighters, Dassault are the flawless ones to do business with.
…
:diablo:
In all seriousness and without biasim & technical details (aircraft capabilities) pushed aside, the Typhoon package looks to be the better overall buy, I must say. As is always the way with these things, wait and see. Only a couple or so weeks to go.
EELightningEELightning, you do have some talent for insinuation, which is why you got Tmor riled up. Good hearted banter is all well and good, but unfortunately repetition becomes tiresome. Remember a few months back we had almost this same exact conversation on this very thread?
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=109699&page=8So I’ll have to repeat myself. Sigh.
Flying hours per aircraft per month over Libya, up to mid-June
These averages are based on 3,800 flight hours for Rafale and 1,500 flight hours for Typhoon. Both pretty decent sample sizes.
Maintenance costs per flight hour (excluding fuel)
Also, the goal back in 2004 was to bring Rafale’s cost per hour down to €7,000-10,000 by 2012 (i.e. by around the 100,000hr mark, a good proxy for when an aircraft reaches maturity). Not sure if this is on track to be achieved – it is certainly true that the M88 engine has taken more time to reach maturity (100,000 flight hours instead of 50,000 originally planned), leading to engine support cost overruns of 30% over that time period.
All from public sources. IMHO these numbers tell a pretty strong story about Rafale’s availability and serviceability.
Well, thanks for those figures, its something I was looking for, and obviously I missed what you said the first time (I’m sure I’m notthe only one thats missed something) and indeed they’re impressive. And certainly, I’m not here to “rile up” anyone, I’ve got too much of a life for that sort of thing.
Wrt the Luftwaffe & RAF being unhappy with costs per flight hour. Indeed thats what the link you posted stated. An NAO report stated the costs were expensive, currently it must be said, but as more aircraft are entering service those costs would come down similar to those of the Tornado & Harrier.
No harm, of course.
For Libya, you seem to concentrate on the fact that 2 Rafale had to land in Malta. This was a patrol, one had a problem, true, the other followed.
I’m just curious to what these problems were. Thats all. I’m not criticising it, just interested to know. I don’t get why it seems to be a touchy topic.
You’re also talking about a Rafale “not flight worthy” (in Libya ?).
No, not Lybia. During Aero India this year. Apparantly, one Rafale was “unfit” to perform a display and another that was supposed to take it’s place cut short it’s display, for reasons unknown. Apparantly.
This is something else I’m curious as of why this happened. Again, not a criticism.
Ok, maybe. If we count those 2, out of 900 sorties (Rafale C/B flew 900 sorties, I do not count the Rafale Ms which flew 1000 sorties), sorry, nothing too embarrassing IMHO.
The only figure I find, though, is 95% for the Rafale M for the very begining of the conflict.
http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=115841
Nothing embarrassing about that at all. Also, thanks for the link, it gives more of an idea. And, as I more or less said above, I do miss some links and figures from time to time, especially when I’ve been away for a bit of time & when I do log on here don’t always go through everything what I’ve missed.
I’d jst like to say. I’m not having a pop at the Rafale or at anyone supporting it. I’m just trying to get more of an idea of it’s, and Typhoon’s availability & serviceabilty ‘thingy-ma-jigs.’ Just to get a rough idea on how they’d look in the MMRCA competition, during these final stages. On any other day I wouldn’t give much of a toss because it’s a side of militay aviation I’m not particulary interested in.
No malicious harm intended.
EELightningWell! as I remember it, the UK used its NATO stocks of the Aim9L, which were later (much later) replenished by the US.
Even the French were very helpful wrt Exocet.
IIRC, when the British Task Force were heading down south, there was a batch of AIM-9Ls enroute to Europe, only to be quickly diverted to the British. I believe this cme from Sharky Ward’s book, or Dave Morgan’s, don’t remember which.
The fact is that the european Meteor partners don’t want to be dependent on the amraam anymore…
So, ask them why.
Because they want their own European BVR missile and not a US one, nor rely on the US. Obvious, you know that, I know that, so no need to state the obvious where I’d agree anyway & make you look like you scored a browny point.
It’s fine that Europe are wanting to be more independant, we’re supporting our own industry & giving ourselves a boost, I support it 100%. However, thats not to say we’re doing this because the US didn’t want to play ball, as I say, the US were very canny with the British during The Falklands War (as were the French) to supply us with AIM-9s and I don’t recall any complications when they sold AMRAAMs to various European countries, (shame they weren’t as polite with other US hardware).
Besides, Europe wanted a BVR missile that far exceeded AMRAAM in range, end speed, kinetics, superior kill zone etc that would better Soviet/Russian types. The US didn’t have anything that would suite European Air Forces even with the lates variant of AMRAAM. Solution: Design one ourselves that would suite our needs. Simple. Who knows, if the US did have something similar to Meteor, we could have purchased that.
EELightningSince when has Eurofighter GmbH has clamed the Typhoon to be 100% European?
Minus the GPS, Link 16 and the hydraulic system that operates the air brake, Goodrich (an American company) are a supplier of items, ones that aren’t sensitive. They manufacturer a lot of the Typhoon’s lighting systems, pitot probes, ice detectors, c*ckpit parts, little stickers & signs, acoustic/warning horns and a few engine components. What’s the big deal?
The Rafale isn’t as “100% French” as many think it is neither.
Goodrich supply a lot of of it’s sensors similar to those of Typhoon’s. Moog Controls UK; automatic flight control systems, primary flight controls. Thales North America Inc; SPECTRA systems. RUAG Aviation of Switzerland; Fuel tanks & systems, under wing fuel tanks. Again, what’s the big deal?
Irony.
intended to underline the fact that the meteor is developed not only to get a a better missile than the amraam, but also because it will ensure to the european partners a total control on their BVR weapon (EECM, datalink, upgrades)
I’m aware of that.
BVR missiles are strategic assets because they are the key to air superiority without which your aviation is useless.
Relying on an external provider for such missiles will prevent any rapid update to counter ennemy ECM improvements.
And proof of the US not providing anything wrt counterng enemy ECM “when we needed them”, comes from where exactly? Has the US ever said we can’t upgrade missiles such as AMRAAM? And if I remember correctly, during The Falklands War, the Yanks were very helpful on supplying the British with the latest version of the AIM-9 missile when they were already heading down to the South Atlantic.
EELightningOoops, hit a nerve.*
Yes, you’re quite right, we don’t know what caused them to land in Malta. Except that they were “Emergency landings” which indicates they were in ‘schtuck!’ Either that are those particular sorties were very poorly planned.
EELightninghow long before we see them paint the Brit F-35? I am hoping it’ll use something different than what the Yanks have.
knowing the British, perhaps something like a light grey uniform scheme. Dark grey nose (or the same light grey used with the body), a tacky checkerboard pattern on the tail.. some kind of bird animal design next to it… a faded blue and red roundel by the intake. Royal Navy in white fonts..
Pffft. We’ll probably have to ask the Yanks for permission to do that too. 😛
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