plawolfsrbin:
i think the J10 will be china’s furture mid-range fighter, and may well form the backborn of the PLAAF (just as the F16 and Mig29 did for their respective AFs). the low end would be made up of J8Ds and J7s and maybe some FC-1s.
however, i think the PLAAF will order enough J10s to keep CAC busy for some time to come, even when the factories start to gear down, the J10 may still not be offered for sale as doing so would almost certainly mean that everyone else would get a good look at them. this might jeperdise the effectiveness of the J10 within PLAAF service, so i dont think china would not give away the secrets of its next gen workhorse for anything less then a multi-billion $ sale, but no one is ikely to do that.
i think the PLAAF might be willing to just order more J10s just to keep CAC from getting an excuse to sell in internationally.
plawolfsrbin:
dont bother wasting time with ppl like ATF, whats the point?
as for the J10, well i think it was romured to be abt $20~30m, but i wouldnt bet on it being on the market for a while yet.
plawolfthank you for making my point.
:rolleyes:
kya :
“The only proof for the J10 are enthusiastic Chinese aviation enthusiasts. Since there is no confirmation from the Chinese govt or even the manufacturer we hear talk of how secret it is form the speculators.”
:rolleyes: so i guess all those pics of j10s flying all over the play are all made up by chinese aviation enthusiasts?
“Maybe it is secret because it has not been able to meet design expectations. When it does meet design expectations then we will see official comments. That is my point of view and is as valid as the specualtion of 4 squadrons in service very soon and how the Russians are not talking about the J10 engines – ever thought that the Russian are not talking about the J10 and the AL31 engine is because the those engines are really meant for the MKK and not the J10 – just as valid as crobatos fantasy about secret J10 squadrons waiting to be revealed to the world. LOL”
LOL back. its not only the J10 that has been cloked in secrecy, every single chinese a/c with the exception of the FC-1 has been like that, and many are even more secretive then the J10. the JH7 wasnt reveiled until it had been in service for years, there is still no confirmed photo of the JH7A; there is only one or two J8D pics…the FC-1 was only reveiled because it was aimed at the export market. but i guess u didnt know that.:rolleyes:
as for the AL31FN engines being for the J11 or MKK, well LOL! the FN is a redesigned engine with the gearbox on the bottem, it wouldnt fit into a flanker.i guess the chinese ordered the russians to move the gearbox to the bottom just so that they can move it back to the top again after it was delivered.:rolleyes:
“The FC1 has not flown after the first test flights – if it has – show me the pictures. What is there to hide behind it has already been officially revealed.”
have u been keeping watch outside the hanger then?:rolleyes: so, does the reporters where u come from get so board that they report every single minute detail of a project right from the start to finish?
its not hiding anything, there just isnt anything of general public interest to bother writing a whole column abt. do u see AFM reporting every flight of the tyhoon?
“The XXJ is a rip-off of the F22 design on the outside. But we already have this entire thread about how good it will be. ROFL!”
‘rip-off’ implies its a copy, so since when has the US been ‘secretly selling F22 tech to china’?:rolleyes:
“The FBC and JH7 are based on russian airframes and design inputs.”
the FBC-1 is the JH7 for one.:rolleyes: and which russian design is it supposed to be based on again? pic please.
“The J10 is a Lavi rip-off, “
so, what evidence have u got to support that claim? what, just cos the two look similar in appearence then one is a copy of the other? might as well claim that the typhoon, rafale and Gripen are all also LAVI ‘rip-offs’.:rolleyes:
“the FC1 is supposed to be a Mig33 copy.”
have u also got a sight problem? the FC-1 looks nothing like the Mig33.
“What exactly is original about chinese aircraft design – please enlighten us all.”
er, how abt they look distinctly different from any other a/c in the world?
all ur conclusions are based on outdated, and at some points, even blantently wrong info. still sumed up in one word – ignarence.
plawolfmatrix 3.
a little disapointing as it avoided some of the more difficult questions left from 1&2, but still head and shoulders above the rest.;)
plawolfmatrix 3.
a little disapointing as it avoided some of the more difficult questions left from 1&2, but still head and shoulders above the rest.;)
plawolfkya:
“The J10 is speculationware so far.
The FC1 has not flown after the initial flights.
And now there is more speculation on the Chinese equivalent of a F22 rip-off?
The only proven fighters designed so far by China are the Mig 21/19 clones and their derivatives. When the J10/FC1 enters squadron service then we can unequivocally say that these are original Chinese designs which are actually serving.
A wind tunnel model has the Chinese posters in raptures and dreaming about F22 equivalents already. Wonder how soon we will see “CG” pictures leaked on the internet claiming the XXJ is already flying?
megaLOL”
one word to describ that post, ignerence. :rolleyes:
u might want to do a little research before u start making such unfounder BS statements. just to piont u in the reight direction, look up FBC-1/JH7, and thats over a decade old.
plawolfwhat are the dimensions of the R33 v Al31/WS10A?
it would be cool if they can fit a WS10A into the FC-1.:D
plawolfHyperwarp:
the yellow CG pics and the artist impression plane is supposed to be CAC’s XXJ contender, however i have a feeling that it may end up as the twin engined naval J10 that is supposidly also on the boards.
plawolfi think the $8m price tag is a bit misleading. i think thats just the engine, the airframe and a few bare essentual avionics – just enough to get the thing in the air and maybe to shoot a few IR AAMs.
the FC-1 was designed to be a ‘pick and mix’ fighter from the start, so the customer can choose the radar and avionics that best suit them, and that would no doubt push price up. i also wouldnt expect the the $8m package to include and spears or weapons and training.
plawolf“Yes there was, just trying to show you.. NOT CHINA lol.. that its not as simple as knocking up a hull, yeah ott with the list i put but i wanted to show you! i say again You (unless you represent china) that its not soo simple. “
even if i was dense enough to not realise that ships had toilets, how does ‘showing me’ that ships need toilets affect the issue that was being disucssed? which was whether the chinese ship building industry had the capacity to build a carrier?
i think its safe to assume that if an industry is able to do the most difficult things, it can also do the simple ones, especially an industry with abt 4 years worth of backlogged orders, much of which are intended for foreign customers.
i beleive everyone but u was also working under that assumption. thats why it looked to us as if u were questioning whether china had the abilty to produce and install all the things u listes, hence the rebutts. im sorry if that wasnt what u meant, but it wouldnt heart u to make ur arguments more clearly in the future to avoid such misunderstandings.
plawolfmatt:
“erm no special treatment honestly, i was just listing everything i could think of, and it was you i was having the lil debate with no the CCP”
:confused: refresh my memory well u, when did i have a debate with u on the CCP?
“werent trying to be patronising, you think putting in toilets is a joke? its prob one of the more important things.”
i thought i made it clear with this part of one of my posts (quoted below) that i only wanted to discuss the important differences between the hull of a warship and the hull of a civilian ship.
(“and what exactly is the difference between the HULL of a warship and the HULL of a civilain ship? (and please dont bore everyone by listing all the trivial differences, what fundamental difference is there between how the HULL of a mordern warship differs for the HULL of a civilian ship? “)
so u must have some pretty major reaons to bring up toilets, what was it? did u think chinese built ships didnt have them or that the chinese designers working on a future carrier would forget them? :rolleyes:
plawolfsrbin:
there are lots of theories abt what the difference is between the J10 and J10a, however one thing is for sure, the J10a is not to replace the J10.
my personal feeling is that the J10a is either just the designation of the the production J10 (like F16a), or it just represents the full spec J10 with multi/swing role capacity and the J10 may just be the first production batches with only AA ability like the french rafales. either way, the J10a just represents a higher standard that any earlier planes would be later upgraded to, not being replaced by.
PS, nice pics.;)
one of mine favourates.
plawolfmatt:
“us? you talk about your self in the third person now? Hmm oki!”
lol, so was that part direct at me individually then? :rolleyes: so, what did i do to qualify for such ‘special’ treatment from u?:rolleyes:
plawolfIndian1973:
ur assessments on the degree of reliance the chinese economy is on the rest of the world’s is ‘hopeful’ at best.
firstly, lets have a look at what china exports. clothes, light bulbs, toys, cups, plates…….almost everything non-electric in any western home(bar furniture). and many of that (clothes) are essentual consumer durables, meaning no matter how tough life is likely to get, consumers will still need to buy them. and i think it would be highly unlikely that ppl will stop buying their kids xmas and Bday presents just cos the economy isnt doing well. that means any downturn in the US economy will not effect chinese good as much as say, japanese goods, which are prodomnently high end luxury goods like TVs, cars, and cameras.
lets not forget china is also increasing an electronics producer. but currently the biggest disadvantage chinese goods have is a slight lack in quality and design. now, when times are good, ppl would be more willing to dish out more money for a better product, but when ppl have to live on a tighter budget, they may well be more inclinded to settle for sth more middle ranged and alot cheaper instead. so a downture in the US economy may actually be beneficial to some chinese export products.
lastly, it is a common misconseption in the ‘western’ world that china’s economy is totaly depent on its exports. thats total crap made up by manufacturers who are bitter abt loosing business to china. lets not forget that china is also one of the world’s biggest importers, so the net of exports minus imports isnt that great.
the backbone of china’s economy is actually the 500+million middle classed chinese consumers. these ppl are not likely to take their money elsewhere just because the US economy isnt look good.
the only significant effect exports have on the chinese economy is to stimulate growth, but even in this feild its effects are dawfed by other factors such as direct foreign investment and private finance by chinese businessmen.
a downturn in the US economy would no doubt deprive china of alot of direct foreign investment as many US businesses tighten their purse strings, but it can and will bring other opportunities. for example, when the US economy was in termal ater 9/11, many investors simply took their money out of the US and invested it in china. a similar event may occur should the US economy take a nosedive. businesses’ sole goal is to make money, investors want the best return on their investments, and clearly they would not invest in the US when its economy is doing poorly, so they will be out looking for the next best thing, which may well turn out to be china.
even the above is only a very simplified analysis, in the real world there are many many other factors at work that need to be considered to reach a balanced conclusion. but even from the above, its simply to see that as reliant on the US market and investment as china is, the US economy is not the ‘host’ on which the chinese economy feeds upon. the relationship between the two can be described as ‘symiotic’ at best, and should their link be severed, both would suffer, but neither would fall.
a suddent and massive crash within teh US economy would be fatal to china’s economic growth, and may well cause economic decline within china. but the decline would be only be limited and at worst, the chinese economy would only enter a stage of static growth for a period, but would quickly pick up again.
a slow and consistant decline in the US economy may well benefit china’s in the long term, as it could simply take the place of the US economy.
plawolfELP:
“The Polish deal was exactly my point above. Hardly a sale. By the time the whole deal is completed it will be the U.S. tax payer that picks up a good chunk of the tab. That deal includes a lot. A LOT of new tech A2G munitions including JSOW. So it’s pretty complete in hardcore firepower. Offsets pumped back into the country might and/or could benefit Poland as much as 6 billion. Thats a pretty sweat deal. Made by flashing U.S. taxpayers cash in the face of the customer.”
er, juts to point out to that the $6bn the US invested in Poland was NOT a handout. that money is used to set up plants and to INVEST in them. the americans would be making a great deal of money from those investments, and the companies in question would most likely also get alot of tax benefit, furthering the profit for the companies.
america invests in Poland for the same reasons any nation invest in another – to make money. the F16 deal probably helped to sweeten the deal for the investers. also, the $6 bn invest in the economy are tied up in assets that belong to the american companies invsting, and most, if not all of those assets can be sold to get the money back should things go bad.
the Polish no doubt benefited, but the americans most certainly didnt make a loss either.
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