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“Crobato,

Plawolf said in an earlier post that if it weren’t for the Communist party, or the government in place now, China would become a divided nation, much like what happened to the old USSR when all the different “states” sought independence, You on the other hand say the Chinese are very nationalisticSo which one of you are right??? Read one of Plawolf’s earlier posts on the subject”.

i think in a way we are both right. the majority of chinese are very patriotic and a scence of nationalism is growing fast within china. but there are, and always will remain those who just dont like things the way they are and think that they can do better; there are those (often in minorities) who always disliked the Han (majority chinese) and dislike being ruled by us; there are also some who simply want to have their own little kingdoms and empires. this is fairly common in nations with long histories and vast cultural diversities.

of course, there are also some who suffered injustice at the hands of corrupt local officials and so think all Han are like them, or have suffered at the hands of the Han in the past (mostly during the japanese invation and cival war); there are also some minorities or religous groups who came from neighbouring countries, where they are the majority, to try to cause unrisings so that parts of china will break away and jion them…

these ppl will always try to break away or sth, but they usually do not represent the wishes of the majority they claim they are fighting for.

such groups can never achieve sustain themselves, and are usually supported from abroad by nations who either see china as a threat and are trying everything to undermined us, or have some sort of terretorial dispute with china but dont have the military means to take what they see as rightfully theirs.

currently, these nations knows china’s position and attetude towards them, and although they often support such groups with money, equipment, media support and even training in some cases, they still do not dare to make thing too obvious because if they are caught red handed, then the political and possible military reprecussions are too great for them to sustain. but by keeping things under raps, the groups they support can never hope to achieve their goals.

and there lies the problem for china if we left taiwan go. by setting such a president for those nations, we would be telling them that it is possible to force us to conceed terrotory if they raised the stakes high enough. this could:

a) start a regional arms race, where our neighbours think they can blackmail us if they have enough arms to inflict serious damage on us in a war.

b) lead to cival unrest because on one hand, more ppl will be encouraged by taiwan’s independence and think if they caused enough trouble we would just let them go. this would most likely lead to a surge in the number of these ‘independence groups’ as well as the number and furosity of terrorist attacks in china. on the other hand, there would be a massive public backlash by nationalisc youths shocked and disgusted by the government’s decision and subsiquent events.

c) lead to war with one or even many of our neighbours. if neighbouring countries try to blackmails us and the stakes are raised too high for either side to back down, then there can only be war. and (if u r sinical), there may even be a chance of china starting a war with a weak neighbour to divert public opinon.

there are many other possible ‘deasater’ scanarios that might result from taiwan declearing independence. but i think the point is made clear enough. if u back off when u are pushed, then more ppl are going to have a go at pushing u around to see if they can get sth from u, we nor any otehr responsible government simply cannot set such a president to the world.

which rock have u been under for the last decade mixtec?

ur last post is so unbelievably spiteful, prosumptous and out of date that im even finding it amusing.

“Vortex didnt ask if you wanted to protest against PRC goverment, he DARED you to do it. It obvious you dont want to protest because the fact your able to travel/study abroad is a tip off that you and/or your family are part of PRCs ruling elite. The are millions of youth in China who dream of being able to communicate with the outside world as you can. The want to learn english, study abroad and become part of movers and shakers of this world, but they cant. Because people like you who are in control are satisfied with the way things are.”

as crobato already reminded u, complaining is allowed in china. yes it is. and u wont even get funny looks for doing it. as long as it is a legitemate complaint that is. that means u can criticise the CCP for being impocotent in dealing with the SARS outbreak and being corrupt in the lower levels, but u will get in trouble if u start quoteing newsmax and help spread lies abt how us evil chinese are developing ‘post nuclear superweapons that will wipe out all none chinese’. but even then it wont be half as bad as u might expect. u’ll just get a telling off from some policeman or sth on those lines, U WONT JUST DISAPPEAR.

i will admit that the chinese government has more control over its population then the west, and i do concede that things must change for the better. but the thing is, the top PRC leaders agrre with this, and things are changing for the better, they’ve been changing for the past 20 or 30 years, u just wont see any of it.

oh, ps, i and/or my family are no way related to any ‘part of PRCs ruling elite’ nor do i even know any of them in person. i am in england because a) i can afford to study here and b) because i can get a very decent job here. and i will be looking for job opportunities inside china, and if i can find a suitable position, i will be moving back.

just that single senytence show how incredably little u know aby china. if u think that every chinese that dont hate the CCP is in some way connected to the chinese ruling elite, then ur even more far gone than i thought, it should be easy to find chinese students in just about ever city where there’s a decent Univercity, just go and chat to some of them about their views towards china and the CPP, u might be a little suprised at what u find. oh, i would tone down the anti-chinese retoric a little if u are seriously going to do that.

as for not being alloowed to traval freely, well thats the biggest bit of balony i’ve heard so far. in countries like tailand and malysia and austrlia, chinese tourists are actually more numerous then japanese tourists. we can go aboard as easily as u can, and that has been the case for well over a decade. the only reason few chinese went aboard before was because not many could afford it, but even that is changing. like it or not china is changing, and it has been for a very long time.

u claim it ppl like me that r keeping china in the past, but if u would bother to learn more abt us, then u would find it is ppl like u who are still holding onto the old image of china.

“The government of PRC is a totalitarian goverment, why should they have to be corrupt. I doubt Joseph Stalin had to steal anything either, Im sure many said he was “as clean as they come” also.”

actually its not u know. although in threoy, the president can make decisions on his own, it rarely happens, if even nowadays. the chinese leaders make decisions in much the same way a large PLC makes decisions. all the top leaders gather like in board meeting an discuss the various issues. while they might not all put their hands up and vote at the end, the advice and opions of everyone palys a big role in the decision making process.

of course they dont do this for every little thing, the various ministers have a suprisingly large degree of autonomy when dealing with their specific duties, and they always consult with expert advisors before making big decisions.

as for corruption, well for ur information, the top PRC leaders (the newest crop at least) are as clean as they come ANYWHERE. i doubt many of ur senitors will look like anything but a mop compared to some of them.

in an article in the Daily telegraphy, a jurnolist try his best to dig up dure on the new chinese president (hu jin tao) but the best he can come up with is that Hu doesnt visit his stepmother much, and that she is only living in moderate condition like most other chinese citizens.

the reporter tried to use the story of how Hu’s stepmom had to fight hard herself to stop a big property developer buying up her home and knocking it down, as a way of saying how Hu is unapreciative and ‘heartless’. but if the reporter had know much abt the inner working of chinese politics, he would have realised that this could not have been the case. being in the position he was, Hu wouldnt have needed to even gesture to someone if he want his stepmom to live in luxury. corrupt officails would have bought her a big house and paid for all her needs out of their own pockets just to curry favours with such an influantual figure. to stop himself from being draged into the vorlpool of curruption, Hu probably had to do what Zhu rong ji ( former preimer and the most popular chinese offical) did, which was to openly state that he took favours for himself and his family as sinister intentions.

corruption in china is very bad, theres no duningit, but it is only given the level of attention it is currently getting because ppl like Zhu and Hu are at the very top. and because ppl like Zhu and Hu are running things, im confident one day we will finally see the end of corruption in china, because i believe that any and all decisions made by ppl like Zhu will be for the good of the country and ppl, because believe it or not, money and wealth means little to them, and so they will not misuse their power and authority as it is how future generations will judge them that is most important to them.

“You arent left with a healthy body if you remove the cancer of corruption in China, your left with an invalid. The industrial capacity of PRC is a joke. Wachenroder says PRC has opened themselves up to captalism. Where I ask? Where are all these huge successful PRC corperations? They simply have opened themselves up to foreign corperations to take advantage of the cheap labor in China.”

if u remove a deseased musle, it will grow back; if u remove an infected organ, u can get an implant. but the ‘body’ must be given time to heal after each ‘cancer’ is removed, that’s why corruption in china wont just disappaer in a few day or months or even years, but one day, it will be gone.

“We only know what Fox tells us because if we went to China to find out for ourselves, we would be jailed.”

all i can say is ‘Ha’ to that. u have abt as much change of being arrested in china for see the truth as u have of being hit and killed by a gulf ball. unless, of course, u need to do a little ‘research’ for the CIA or taiwanese intelegence to help pay for ur trip to china.

“Taiwan (KMD) was not defeated, you did not win the civil war, China was divided into two nations, if you had won the civil war there would only be one nation. “

er, u reposted my message, but did u read it? the KMD’s armies had been smashed, both militarily and sycoliogically. in the final days of the war, they werent fighting anymore, they were just deserting and surrandering. the PLA might not have had much of a navy, but seeing how they got over 1 million men across both of china’s massive rivers in a few days, the taiwan strait wasnt going to be much of an obsticle if the US didnt park their whole pasific fleet in the middle of it. the KMD wa deafed in all the ways a government or army could be deafeated, taiwan remained under their control because the PLA could not take on the USN at that time. but make no mistake, the balance of power between the straits have always remain in the mainland’s favour.

“Thats the understatement of the century: Taiwans president doesnt want to be demoted to governer. Howabout all of Taiwans 18 million dont want to be demoted to peasants like the majority of the population of PRC.”

i’d say thats the worst bit of propaganda this century. hong kong and maco was retured to china, i dont see thier citizens being shipped off the the western parts of china to grow rice, do u? the reunification of taiwan will only adversly affect the ruling eltie of taiwan, for the vase majority, it would be very benefical. 1) they wouldnt need to spend half as much on defence 2) the millions of taiwanese businessman and their families can look forward to a much brighter future as the vast chinese market will be fully open to them 3) taiwanese shoppers will be able to enjoy lower prices as trade restrictions against the mainland are lifted… the list goes on and on.

“Plawolf- You say PRC hasnt taken over Taiwan because your peaceful. No, you havent taken over Taiwan because the cost in bloodshed would be a great embarrasment to you and would only show the world what jealose boors you are. Your hopeing to reduce by preasure Taiwans military capacity so you can quietly overtake contol of that country. Sorry, but thanks to the US, the price of fighting Taiwan will remain high.”

well, i believe it can be classed as a form of racism when u class an entire population as ‘jealose boors’. but u can call all the name u want, because it doesnt change the facts of the matter. we do no want war between the straits because a) we do not plan wars like holidays like some countries and b) those are our brothers and sisters on the other side, and we do not like killing our own. we will try our best to find PEACEFUL solution to the problem, but if US keeps testing our patents with illegal arms sale to taiwan then there will come a point when not even the CCP can keep the lid on the anger boiling down among the population itself.

oh yeah, another point vortex, what right do u have to critcise china while basing ur arguemnts soley on Fox and CNN reports?

have u even been to the country? have u actaully been arrested for protesting, as u have us believe is the fate of all who dares to speak in china.

Vortex:

“Go back to China, demonstrate against the PRC and let’s see how proud of the current government in China you are.”

why should i? u can go if u like, but why the hell should i protest against my government when it is u who have a problem with it? it is also nieve to think that protests are worth a dame, even in ur lovely little ‘democracy’. there were over a million ppl denmostrating the london over blair’s stance on iraq, still they when to war.

“Mao lied to his people and they basically got used and abused. “

so? like ur presidents never lie. and whats this abt ‘used and abused’? how did he actaully ‘use and abuse’ the whole population exactly? if u were refering to the great leap forward, well although it is true that these failed attamps caused great hardship, it was only a misguided attampt to make the lives of individual chinese better. the goal was never to harm the population, so how could this be classed as ‘used and abused’?

“The fact is you can’t say anything against your government inside China. I dare you to do it. I can do it in the US…tell me about freedom again? “

again, i dont wish to say bad things abt china because i do not wish to. there isnt much to say anyways.

the only thing i cab think of is the level of coruption in the government. yes, that’s a major problem, it could be compaired to a cancer in a person, and if it is not removed, it will caused great harm. but we are tackling corruption. u know y? its because cooruption is only common in the lower ranks of government. but the top levels are as clean as they come (in any country). personally, id prefer our kind of coorution to ur kind, where the head of state openly accepts ‘donations’ and ‘favors’ they must pay back some how.

the corruption in china is like a cancer in the leg or arm or liver, while it is a serious problem, and seriously affcts the efficency and health of the person, he can still function fairly normally, and it can be cured fairly easily by removing the cancer or even the organ and putting in a new one. but ur kind of corruption is like a cancer in the brain, the rest of the body can be in perfect order, but it still cant work at its top efficeny. and like brain cancer, it is very diffiult to treat.

“KMT in the past is no better than the CCP but that doesn’t say anything about ROC. “

er, do u know anything abt the CCP of today except what Fox tells u? for all its flaus, it is nowhere near as repressive or burtal as the KMT of the cival war days.

“Mind you that CCP started from the left wing of the KMT and were part of the ROC process. As to legitimacy, is there anything signed about the defeat of the ROC? ROC doesn’t have to claim the bulk of China, but they certainly can claim Taiwan which PRC have no control what so ever over that. You’re claiming against that? What’s even more annoying to the PRC is that Taiwan is now fully democratic and that gotta hurt some of those old man’s egos…”

well, if america hadnt poked it nose into our internal affairs then, we would have taken taiwan in 49. but even so, there doesnt need to be anything signed to mark the KMD’s defeat. them being driven from the mainland is proof enough. also, seeing how this was a cival war and not a conflict between two nations, there is no need for a surrander treaty.

as for the KMD’s claim on taiwan, well even they never disputed that taiwan is a part of china, so when the CCP took over as the sole legitamate government of china, we also took over soverenty of taiwan. taiwan is currently not united with china because its so called ‘president’ dont want a demotion from ‘head os state’ to governer of a provence.

as for ‘democarcy’, well what u now call ‘democracy’ is hardly what the Greeks had in mind when they invented the concept. just as communism was a faild attampt to create a sociaty where money had no meaning, ‘democracy’ is a faild attempt to creat a government that gave its ppl what they wanted. we all seen how well ur ‘democracy’ works when the american ppl didnt get the president most of them voted for. bush only won because of a legal technolity and some very questionable ballet counting.

even if the right president had been elected, the will of the government is still often forced on the ppl, even if most of them are actaully against the decision being taken.

HA!

sauron

“As to the broader issue of US actions to thwart communist movements during the cold war… why would they have done otherwise? It was a means to an end. A quite satisfactory one given the nature of communism. Most of those issues have been sorted out as democratic government have evolved. Not such a bad result IMHO given the track record of communism.”

please, do u even know what communsim really is? after u find that out, then maybe u will see why it was so imapropreatly used in that post.

u think what the US did in the past is ‘justified’? dont make me lauth. overthrowing popluar governments that had the support of their ppl at the cost of many thousands of lives(millions if u count all these little advantures throughtout the world) simply because they had a different belief to ur our; starting wars and putting in DICTATORSHIPS to stop a popluation chosing their own path. these r just a few of the things the US and CIA did in the name of preventing the spread of communism.

but the cold war was never truely abt comminsm or capitalism was it? it was about the influences of power that the USSR and USA had. all the lies spread by the US abt how ‘evil’ communism was was just simply a propaganda coy to win public and allied support. the mere fact that so many ppl are still blinded by these propaganda lines is testomony to the success of them. well done, the US can lie better then anyone else in the world, u must be very proad.

according to vortex, the world should just forget everything ‘pre 1990′ forget abt the US’ past sins while we should keep france’s collonial days fresh in our memories and use the china of 20 years ago when we discuss modern affairs. how selfless of u.

face the facts, what’s done is done, there’s nothing we can do to change it, so at the very least we should accept it. unless, of course, u prefer not to know and face the truth.

what i remember most clearly, and hit me the most abt the powell interview were the exact words used. how french should be punished for ‘standing up to the United states’ those were the exact words used were they not.

i wonder if the massive american dislike for france is because of their stance on iraq or the fact that ‘puny little france’ dares to challange the wishes of the might US of A.

Mongu

“Equally – practical communism is totally different from theoretical communism. Name me on country on Earth which ever implemented communism and ended up with anything other than a corrupt, brutal dictatorship.”

no disrespect meant, but i do not agree with ur logic. just because an idea had not worked well so far does not mean that it is fundamentally flaud.

communism in a nutshell, is just simply an ideal sociaty where all members of sociaty work at their maximum ability to benefit all, while the wealth and resources are distributed equally and fairly to all.

in my view, communism faild because of faults in the human nature, not the idea itself. true communists are usually idealists who in some respects tend to loose touch a little with reality. they r so caught up with the idea of creating the ‘perfect’ sociaty that they either forgot or underestemated the power of human instincts.

but many aspects of communism are actually in widespread useage today, and is considered by most nations to be a central part of the duties of any responsible government. take state benefits for example. it invalves taking money from the rich and redistributing it to those who need it. this would not exist in a total free market economy, which is the ultimate goal captalism could achive. but is that what the ppl want? last time i checked, ppl wanted more and better state benefits, not less or even none. like it or not, the world is moving in the direction of communism, though it cannot be denide that captalism is the driving force that motavates ppl and keep producing economical, industiral, technological progress that makes modern life possible.

the mistake of communist leaders and governments is that they though idealoligy along would be enough to motavate ppl. but clearly that hasnt worked. simlerly, pure capalism is not the best way forward as it would make the world a much more dark, brutal, even a little nazi place, where the weak are left to die in the streets, while the strong or lucky gets far more then they will ever need.

i dont know abt the rest of u, but i would not like to have my children growing up in a world obessed with only making money. although alone it wont fill our stomaches, ideaology is a central part to the human existance, and without it, none of us will be whole.

vortex:

“don’t let his PROPAGANDA misguide you. First of all, the Republic of China was formed in 1911. The People’s Republic of China was formed in 1949. In terms of legitimacy…as long as Taiwan asserts Republic of China then it is “Independent” from People’s Republic of China. Notice i didn’t say “Independence” because why would you need that when you already have it. Mainland China are experts at mixing things and then call them the way they like it. They claim they’re afraid of “Republic of Taiwan”, but in reality they’re even more worried about “Republic of China”. “

‘propaganda’? do u even know what the word means? check it up in the dictionary first before u start misusing it.

it is ture that the ROC was fomed in 1911 before the PRC (1949), so what? the qin dynasty was the first to rule all of china, under ur logic it is the only legetimate government of china then? the ROC was corrupt, oppressive, imcopotent (all the things u accuse of the PRC, how ironic) and the PEOPLE of china rose up and overthrown that government. any legetimicy that government had was lost when they were driven to taiwan.

if u know the simplest facts abt the chinese civial war, then u would realise that the ROC fell from power because the whole country united against them. the KMD had the best weapons (fighters/bombers, tanks artilary etc), while Mao couldnt even arm all his soilders with bult-action rifes. but Mao still won. his great strategies helped greatly, but it was the sher collective will and sacrafic of the population of china that ultamately won the war. had the US not threaternd to interfer, we would have taken taiwan in 1949 and there would be no dispute abt the legitemicy of the PRC or the staus of taiwan. u help create this problem by help keeping in power a corrupt and defeated government that was rejected by the vast majority of the chinese ppl, and now u have the audasity to question our legitimicy?

“What’s ironic is that people like plawolf have lived under years of total propaganda and they come out and claim that everything they know is the 100% truth and what ever we know must be some stupid CNN or Fox news bs. First of all, he needs to do two things to demonstrate that he’s not a HYPOCRITE. First verify that he does indeed lives in China, last i recalled he said he doesn’t live there..HYPOCRITE. “

i dont even need to try to defend my self against this kind of pitiful attacks, u have already contradicted urself. first u cliam that i lived all my life in china, so i therefore should know nothing but ‘lies’, but then u want me to prove that i am living in china? did we miss out appointment with the doctors this week?

unlike some true HYPOCRITES, i have live half my life inside china while spenting the other half living, studying and working abroad (in england if u didnt bother to read my last post) so i think i would have a rather accurate view of what china is TRUELY like.

it is true that we still have many problems, but the situation is nowhere near as bad as CNN or FOX would have u believe. what i find most ironic is how ppl in the west, who i can only assume have been effectively brainwashed, know so little abt china and yet still have an almost instinctive hatred of everything chinese.

“Then OPENLY broadcast out anti-People’s Communist China stuff on the internet. Freedom in China you said? You may say why should you do that when you have no problem with the Chinese government, i say i have no problem with the American government and i can still do that because i know there won’t be consequences unlike what you are claiming about China.”

what r u on abt here? when did i ‘openly broadcast anti-People’s communist china stuff’? r u seeing things as well? if u were refering to my acknoledgement that the chinese media is not perfect and has faults, then i have no defence, yes we do have problems, it is the truth, do u have a problem with that? and also, whats this abt ‘consequences’? english is not my mother language and i can use it better. spent more time studying and less time china bashing and maybe u can still salvage sth of ur life.