FedaykinSetting up a local production line for Typhoon in Saudi sounded like a nice idea but the simple fact is the country doesn’t have the local skill base to support the plan.
Most industries within Saudi Arabia rely on foreign workers whilst their armed forces are equipped with weapon systems that require a veritable army of foreign contractors to support. Despite setting up universities and vainly attempting to diversify their economic base native Saudis show little interest in building up a proper skill base to support any industries. Once the oil runs out they are sitting on a cultural and economic time bomb.
None of that is BAE Systems fault! Yes BAE has been in Saudi for 30+ years with 6000 employees but many of those are not Saudi. The Saudi Arabians wanted to build a local production line using locally trained people…frankly it was doomed to failure from the start!
On the other hand Russia decided to bid the overhaul of a carrier that had been sitting for a number of years with no blue prints, in a yard that had little to no experience of that kind of work and none of the dry dock facilities including gantry cranes that would make the job easier. They then underestimated the work needed and have consistently bumped the price up as a result leading to a massive cost and time overrun!
FedaykinWell I think the initial work done on her was more about stabilising the hull and protecting it from further corrosion. They rather quickly pulled her into a dry dock for a paint after she arrived and clearly gutted out lots of junk as well going on the early pictures dockside.
FedaykinMainly new builds with some refurbished and a loan of some Czech airforce examples prior to the first delivery.
FedaykinWell now that completes the fixed wing training circle! With the Lasta-95, T-6 and L-159 they will be able to take a pilot from initial screening to LIFT and F-16 without recourse to external help.
FedaykinYour giving predictions with such conviction. If they are spending $2.3b on Pantsyir it means they are going to spend alot more on other things. and the amounts may not be accurate.
see Iraq airdefence network being rebuilt against Turkey.
Yes I am JSR, its called speculation and expressing opinion…something which is as far as I am aware is done on forums.
I am speculating that it is unlikely that the Iraqi airforce would not be interested in the Mig-29 considering their current procurement trends and influence. If I am wrong so be it but until then I am entitled to express opinion.
I agree with you that Iraq’s main regional threat is Turkey and it is well known that the Turkish airforce and army has violated Iraqi territory.
FedaykinHi-tech wise, i doubt Russia will lose anyting of importance to US intel.
So its a fair chance for Russia to get a fothold in Middle East Arms market.
Russia already has a strong foothold on the middle east market. As already mentioned the Arab nations lap up their GBAD systems among other things.
FedaykinLook at the report guys!
It states that apparently (but not exactly confirmed) thirty Mi-28 attack helicopters and 42 Pantsir-S1 surface-to-air missile systems. This pretty much matches what I said in my earlier post. Iraq is already a heavy Russian helicopter operator the Mi-28N has the TV3-117VMA installed in them are very similar to the TV3-117VM in their Mi-17 meaning a logistics synergy. In respect of the Pantsir-S1 it represents an affordable GBAD system already popular in the region. It seems ideal for their airbases as it is truck based and mobile.
When it comes to Mig-29 the report just says negotiations are ongoing which keeps me in the sceptical camp. It is just so different from the rest of their fleet in respect of logistics and munitions. If it happens I can’t help but think it would be a politically driven decision rather from their airforce. The only argument for buying Mig-29 is to maintain defence procurement freedom by not keeping all their eggs in one basket. Something that caught Pakistan out in the 90’s.
FedaykinOf course the question is will the DOD do the brave thing cut its losses and drop the LCS program. When you compare the LCS to other commercial off the shelf designs for cost and capability things are frankly absurd!
Just look at the new Turkish Milgem or any of the many MEKO variants and it is clear the USN is getting the short straw! OK the Perry class was rather crude but it was relatively cheap, very capable and performed the tasks the USN needed it to!
Pick an off the shelf design using US weapon systems and get US yards to build with assistance from the design authority! Hmmmm could BAE Systems do a rush job on an Americanised Type 26?
FedaykinYou could do a lot of things with smaller vessels once you drop the (manned) aviation complex requirement and its sea state ops requirements.
But I think I said it before – the real competion for small vessels is not larger vessels but aerial assets. Going small doesn’t really work expedtionary (the mothership idea is nice but a bottleneck and single point of failure), and for littoral and EEZ work flying things (and in the future possibly unmanned things) and land based long range missiles are unbeatable for combat. Which limits in my view the small fast surface vessel to ops in permissive environments and para-mil police actions.
Of course then we need to look at the reverse of the coin and why FAC or things that float in general still have role VS UAV or manned aircraft.
In the end an aircraft or UAV can film a trawler doing something potentially naughty or drug runners trying to sneak into a beach but only a boat can come alongside and have a friendly chat 😉 … at the end of a 30mm canon if they don’t understand…
FedaykinErr looking at the report Tango it actually says “may sign”!
I wouldn’t be that surprised at the Mi-28N or the ground based air defence systems. Considering Iraq is already a heavy user of Russian helicopter types and Russian GBAD systems pretty much offer the best bang for buck on the global market it seems reasonable. On the other hand whilst the Apache is probably out of Iraq’s price range I bet the US could make a very attractive offer on new Cobra’s going on the recent offer to South Korea.
As for Mig-29 put me in the sceptical camp, the Iraqi air force is very US centric now and the F16IQ Block 52 is more then adequate for their needs. I find the possibility of the L-159 ALCA being inducted into their airforce far more credible. It has the advantages of sharing munitions with the F16IQ aside from the canon and will be an affordable addition to the F16IQ in a high low mix.
FedaykinThe South African Navy deployed a Minister class strikecraft to search in the Indian Ocean for wreckage from the SAA Helderberg plane crash in November 1997.
The strikecraft SAS Frans Erasmus sailed across the South Atlantic, and through the Straits of Magellan to Valparaiso in February 1998. Although it must have been some task, this voyage speaks volumes.
In May 1990, the strikecraft SAS Jan Smuts and Hendrik Mentz deployed all the way across the Indian Ocean to Keelung in Taiwan.
In 1993, the strikecraft SAS Magnus Malan, Hendrik Mentz, and PW Botha once again crossed the Atlantic to South America to participate in the Atlasur excercise.
2 more repeated the voyage and excercise in 1999.
Deploying for an exercise or some such similar event over an ocean doesn’t mean they are suited for sustained blue water operations.
They would loaded up with as much supplies as possible, the fuel tanks would of been topped off with extra drums lashed to the deck more then likely, a sedate fuel efficient pace maintained with stops at friendly harbours and the crew would of had to put up with some hardships for a week or so.
Hardly practical for a sustained combat deployment in the middle of the North Atlantic with winter coming on is it!
FedaykinThe fact is as others and myself have pointed out the major barrier for FAC taking on Cruiser/Destroyer/Frigate type roles is not the ability to load them up with all sorts of heavy duty weapons systems and sensors (albeit even that is restricted). No it is the crew endurance that is the main issue, with blue water operations a vessel that small cannot have particularly impressive crew facilities or carry much supplies and fuel. Also in open ocean the sea keeping of a FAC is hardly going to be pleasant, actually in the North Atlantic a FAC might be completely swamped in certain weather and sea states. Frankly even a large destroyer with its long thin design is fairly horrid in a winters North Atlantic storm.
There have been mothership concepts that have done the rounds with a supply ship supporting the smaller craft. The Royal Navy almost went with the idea with the Type 23 class that as intended prior to the Falklands war would of had ASW equipment but no anti air fit with the Fort II class replenishment ships resupplying the flotilla and providing air defence. Frankly it was a bonkers idea that luckily got dropped but two of the Fort II were built less the Sea Wolf Silos. If the mother ship had been lost the vessels it would of supported would of been in trouble. It should also be noted that even prior to the post Falklands redesign the Type 23 as intended was still far larger then a common FAC.
Countries that operate FAC use them in a coastal environment in a defensive role. A FAC by its nature is closely tied to a harbour and trying to operate them in a blue water environment is impractical.
FedaykinHopefully it will be installed properly but it is still storing problems for the future and going against global standards that India has signed up for!
This project has been bungled at every stage and suggesting that the installation of a problem material is good or a victory for common sense is asinine!
FedaykinA ship will be impounded because its engine boilers use asbestos liners?
Really?
If it is not correctly sealed then yes they can be impounded and if it is blue Asbestos then the fun really starts because it requires specialist handling over and above that for other forms.
If it is installed properly then in the short term there will not be problems, but down the line it will have to be treated with care. That India is now rolling over on this matter and contravening their own marine materials regulations is a very poor development. That you are portraying this as a good happy situation that everybody should pat themselves on the back is rather problematic.
FedaykinConfirmed that the Indians are ok with Asbestos insulation now?
If so, good news. No doubt the issue can be solved in several months.
http://flotprom.ru/news/?ELEMENT_ID=123949
Good news?!
In no way would that be good news, there is a reason why India specified alternatives! A simple google search will return many companies and reports about its removal but none suggesting it should be used in new build. Many port authorities (including those in India) will stop and impound vessels if Asbestos is present in certain forms.
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