Fedaykinhttp://www.deccanchronicle.com/channels/nation/south/rafale-typhoon-score-merit-126
So now we know who ended first in the MMRCA technical evaluation. This was already reported before the official news :
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/04/m-mrca-selection-to-showcase.html
Looking at the report I don’t see anything official from the Indian MOD that the Rafale came out ahead of the Typhoon so far only that they are both selected for the final part of the contest. I very much doubt they would as it might expose the contest to protests by the various manufacturers involved.
This will come down to who gives the best ToT and offsets in the end.
FedaykinIndeed CAT1 the earlier J10 would offer nothing really significant beyond the F16 they already operate especially the later Block 52+. To make it worthwhile an AESA radar is certainly a requirement and I have a hunch they would prefer a Chinese engine as well. We also have to factor in possible future developments of a low tier single engine stealth fighter from China. Pakistan has its hands full inducting upgraded and new F16 and JF17 as well as integrating them with their new tanker and AEW&C capabilities.
As for adding a twin engine heavy to their fleet as suggested by some here, I would suggest that it isn’t really necessary. Remember Pakistan is a small country, even without air to air refueling its fairly easy to maintain fighter cover their airspace unlike China and India who have a huge area to cover.
FedaykinMaybe Jonesy but I think the capability is useful even a twin turboprop version. Also recent scares about snooping Russian subs and having to borrow US P3 can’t be ignored.
The RN certainly think it is a useful capability as they have bothered to put together a working group to explore options.
Anyway its all down to cash and I want the carriers more…
FedaykinNah GoldenPawn AESA can be available quicker then that for Typhoon, the enabling hardware is available and an AESA has already been trialed albeit not the preferred Swashplate solution.
If India wants! India will get no problem believe me. As for AtoG capability, ignoring the austere fit for UK tranche 1 airframes full AtoG is for Typhoon is well within the MMRCA time frame.
FedaykinAnd yet again the “Lets cancel the carriers brigade” sharpen their knives:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9469000/9469951.stm
What did everybody expect?! Converting the carriers to CATOBAR operations was going to cost more money. Notice Peston doesn’t mention that the F35C are in theory cheaper then the B model and the initial purchase significantly cut. F35B purchase was going to be 150ish and they are now talking about less then 40 at least in the beginning.
Purchase more F35C later on as a GR4 replacement and you have extra to rotate onto the carriers
FedaykinIndeed, actually the most you could leave off really is the catapult shuttles by leaving a pair of empty troughs. You would still need to install all the below deck power gear. Certainly the arresting gear engines would have to be installed as a fair amount of metal would have to be cut to get them in. Whilst you could leave out the gas turbine sets as they should be designed to be fairly easily swapped out they have still been ordered so no money saving there. After that you could leave off the IFLOLS landing sight as I presume you could buy one and swap it between carriers, but you will still need to install some of the cabling etc…
The only other choice would be to finish as a mega helicopter carrier which is just five shades of insane!
FedaykinSorry to burst any bubbles but the UK doesn’t want Naval Typhoon! Actually I bet the RN would rather crawl over hot coals then buy it…
FedaykinAs far as I am aware SAR top cover is more about protecting/helping the rescue helicopters if their engines decide to quit! Also a jet can get out to the rescue area quicker and assess the situation. Finally whilst modern technology like SATCOMS, GPS and EPIRBS are great that doesn’t make them 100% reliable! (Especially those on civilian yachts)
FedaykinWell that is the question! In the end the RAF operating maritime patrol/ASW aircraft is a historic holdover from Coastal command days. Actually the origins of that are even earlier as the navy operated patrol aircraft from 1909 until 1918 and the formation of the RAF. It wasn’t until 1939 that the admiralty got control back of the aircraft that operated from carriers with the RAF retaining the maritime patrol tasking.
In respect of your question I think we need to have a careful think about what we need to do.
Firstly whilst I HATE the term in many ways having an ASW aircraft that can fly to the middle of the Atlantic is a bit of a cold war relic (grrrr it makes me twitch even writing it out!). We are not really going to be fighting a war against the Russians any time soon protecting merchant ships as they race across the Atlantic to resupply forces in Europe as they fight against Warsaw pack armies. If we do need some form of Blue Water ASW capability then we still retain Type 23 with its towed array and Merlin.
Secondly that brings us to the ASW we do now (yes we do it now!), that is protecting the bombers as they leave Faslane for deterrent patrol. Thats brown water ASW and can be done perfectly well with a twin engine turboprop type like the C295 MPA or ATR 72 ASW (as we already know the former would be my choice). I think there is a secondary role of being able to forward deploy to the Falklands to protect against Argentine Diesel subs off her waters so an AAR capability would be good with the installation of a probe.
Thirdly that brings us to who should operate it, well as it involves the protection of RN bombers then it is logical to have it as an FAA asset. Sensor operators are available from the Merlin community and as for pilots well even with cuts the navy retains quite a few. Actually it could be a way for the Navy to retain more trained fixed wing pilots outside of the RAF’s remit by rotating them from the F35 to the patrol aircraft. Its clear to me that the RAF are keen to have control of the F35 and one way to do that is keeping navy fixed wing pilot numbers down, having an MPA/ASW squadron in the FAA is a way of bypassing the RAF and keeping numbers up.
Fourthly that brings us to the other role that we need which is long range SAR coordination cover. A twin engine turboprop is not best suited to that role and the UK has learned to appreciate the advantages of using a jet. For me the solution is a long range business jet leased and operated on a power by the hour solution by the UK Coastguard. Something like the Falcon 50 M used by the French Aeronavale would be highly suited in the role.
Anyway that is my thinking, the RAF don’t need to be in the MPA/ASW game give that fully to the navy and long range SAR cover should be done by the UK Coastguard.
FedaykinWell I get a feeling from the latest reports that they have realised mothballing PoW when she is finished still requires the installation of the arresting gear and catapult. Not installing would cause serious issues if she is pulled out of mothballs.
FedaykinCrossing fingers for Typhoon!
Fed
😀
FedaykinHow much carry through does the M2K logistics have for Rafale? On another note what Dassault wanted for the M2K upgrade hasn’t helped relations with the Indian MOD. – edit you got there as I was typing this out…
On the other hand I’m not going to take a guess which will win as I am sure that Indian defence procurement involves flipping a coin at some point;)
FedaykinWell I am expecting begrudging acceptance from Boeing and Lockheed Martin. In the end the orders for C130J, P8 and what looks like at least ten C17 is nothing to be sniffed at. Also there are some interesting helicopter contracts on the go that are attractive to Boeing.
I will be interested to see what the Russian reaction will be, the problem they have however much they wax lyrical about the Mig 35 it is still only a warmed over Mig 29 and offers no real exciting technology transfer the Indians don’t already have access to.
Oh and I had forgotten pfcem EELightning, what an odd character he was! Sure he went to bed in US flag pajamas!
FedaykinSadly for SAAB the Gripen NG didn’t make the cut. I do feel bad for them, since they were very enthusiastic about the MRCA competition and really had stepped up to the plate for it.
SAAB’s official statement on not making the shortlist
But they’ve been good losers from reading that communication. Not sore losers. There is a lot of goodwill to be earned and a lot of money yet to be made on the Indian defence market and SAAB have shown maturity in not throwing accusations.
It simply appears that the MoD has chosen the best 2 of the IAF’s evaluation list. And the best part is that is this will hopefully mean that the 2 best contenders will vie for the prize, rather than having politics driving the decision (if Super Hornet/F-16 Block 60 or the MiG-35 made the list). Now it’ll be simply down to which of these 2 contenders offers the best offsets, best price and best ToT.
Hmmm whilst I think the Gripen was close to the spirit of what MMRCA was meant to be I have a hunch that selling the SAAB 2000 AEW to Pakistan did no favors for the manufacturer or Sweden in respect of the contest. For that matter it doesn’t help Lockheed Martin in respect of the F16 as well.
FedaykinInteresting developments, reading between the lines it looks to me that they want to place some UK personnel with USN P3/P8 squadrons. That would ensure a core of personnel with the relevant skills if they decide to purchase an MPA in the future:
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