Sao paulo operating legacy hornets would be a very potent carrier when compared to india, spain, italy and the UK

The fact is there are no legacy Hornets available for sale onto other nations, those sitting at AMARG have been parted out to keep the active fleet alive.

Other legacy Hornet operators are running their Hornets through to the end of their life. Both Australia and Canada have had to do extensive and expensive work for that to happen with a centre fuselage replacement program (albeit the Australian program has been cut back – Ja Worsley would know more about this then me).

After that the legacy hornet is really too heavy to safely operate from the Sao Paulo with any meaningful load. The same issue which prevents the A6E, A7E and S-3 sitting at AMARG going to Brazil. The same issue with the Rafale as well. The A4 are pretty much the best choice available for Brazil, with a moderate upgrade a small Radar and integration of HMS, HOBS missile and maybe even moderate BVR missile (Derby would be ideal in my opinion) they can offer much to a fleet operating away from land. If they added a decent Radar to the Trackers as well (Something like Searchwater) then all the better.

There isn’t half some ******** talked on this board sometimes.

“It did cause a doctrinal change in the RAF with a move to medium altitude precision strike….”

No, it didn’t.

Of six RAF Tornado losses, only one was actually shot down while at low level. The first was either shot down or was lost after a switch pigs – either way the aircraft ‘ballooned’ out of the sanctuary of low level, one was shot down after a JP233 run, and two more were shot down while toss bombing, one exploded at medium level when bombs ‘bumped’ on release, one was shot down by a SAM at medium level.

17 Jan 1991 – ZD791 (Flt Lt John Peters and Flt Lt ‘John’ Nichol) Cause not positively determined, but crew reported an engine fire before ejecting. Mission was against Shaibah, with 1,000-lb bombs. Crew taken POW.

19 Jan 1991 – ZA392 (Wg Cdr Nigel Elsdon and Flt Lt Max Collier*) Possibly hit by a SAM 3 minutes after attacking Shaibah with JP233. Crew killed.

20 Jan 1991 – ZA396 (Flt Lt David Waddington and Flt Lt Robert Stewart) Hit by SAM when pulling up for a toss-bombing attack on Talil. Crew taken POW.

22 Jan 1991 – ZA467 (Sqn Ldr Gary Lennox and Sqn Ldr Kevin Weeks) Shot down during toss-bombing attack on Ar Rutbah radar site. Crew killed.

23 Jan 1991 – ZA403 (Fg Off Simon Burges and Sqn Ldr Robert Ankerson) Premature 1,000 lb bomb detonation after release. Crew taken POW.

14 Feb 1991 – ZD717 (Flt Lt Rupert Clark and Flt Lt Stephen Hicks) Shot down during medium level LGB attack. Flt Lt Clark taken POW, Flt Lt Hicks killed.

Low level penetration remains a valid and vital tactic according to the target set and threat picture.

The switch to medium level tactics in Granby and afterwards marked the end of the initial anti-airfield campaign – thereafter it was primarily HAS plinking – better achieved from medium level.

It also reflected the elimination of an air threat – which gave medium level a degree of sanctuary. With an air threat, the balance changes, – medium level becomes dangerous and low level provides the sanctuary.

But if the RAF had to go against an opponent where the air threat was more dangerous than the AAA/LLSAM threat, you’d see a return to low level tactics.

“Tornados came back with damage and some pretty shaken up crews to deliver a weapon of questionable effect. It feeds into, as you rightly say, the lessons of the RAFs tactical failings of GW1. Low level was not bad per se, it was the weapons and how you deliver them.”

JP233 was far from being a weapon of questionable effect against European airfields, railway marshalling yards, or other hard/semi-hard area targets (tank parks, etc.). The problem in Iraq was the sheer size of some of the airfields and the sheer number of alternative runways and taxyways. Cutting a swathe of destruction with JP233 was never likely to close such airfields down, though in fact, it did largely achieve that end, and was the most effective runway denial weapon used during Desert Storm.

The later withdrawal of JP233 had little to do with military effectiveness, and everything to do with woolly headed opposition to landmines.

Well thank you for your constructive input there Jack…:rolleyes: All those bombs dropped by the RAF in later conflicts from medium altitude and the general move away from dropping them at low level is a figment of mine and many others imagination? I would call that a general doctrinal change…if others as yourself see it differently fine but don’t call my opinions “*********” thankyou. Anyway I was talking about JP233 and correcting the mistake that lots of Tornado’s were shot down deploying it in GW1…

ASRAAM is due to be replaced starting around the end of the next decade with CAMM

Kind of, as it stands at the moment CAMM is ASRAAM with TVC.

Then again it doesn’t help the 707 numbers that the USAF purchased every 707 airframe they coul find to keep the KC135 going.

Related News:

USA Buys Russia’s Su-27 Jets From Ukraine to Find Out Why F-15 Is So Bad

The Pentagon purchased two Russian-made Su-27 fighter jets from Ukraine. The United States will reportedly use the Russian jets to train effective counter-operation efforts.

The Russian jets are a serious competition for the US F-15 fighters. The jets of Russia’s renowned Sukhoi design bureau proved to be more successful than their US competitors during a number of tests. The Pentagon has been trying to obtain the Russian warplanes, and Ukraine helped the nation do it legally.

The news about the deal between the USA and the Air Force of Ukraine appeared on the US-based website Strategypage.com. The website said that Russia’s Su-27 fighters were technically similar to F-15 jets, although the Russian planes were 30 percent cheaper.

Several Su-27 jets landed at Langley US air base in the summer of 1992, upon the agreement with the US side. Russian pilots examined F-15 jets at the base and proposed a simulated combat. The US pilots did not like the idea much: they thought that it would be too risky to hold the fight above the base in front of photographers and TV cameras. They eventually accepted the offer, but agreed to hold the mock fight above the Atlantic Ocean, 200 kilometers far from the coast.

The scheme of the mock fight was very simple. A Sukhoi was supposed to fly behind a US jet, and the planes were supposed to switch places with one another.

A US plane attempted to fly away from the Russian jet, but the Russian pilot caught up with the F-15 very easily. The planes switched places, and the Su-27 flew away from the F-15 making a turn and gaining altitude. The Russian jet found itself behind the American fighter a couple of minutes later. The F-125 pilot lost the Russian aircraft out of sight and could not escape from it afterwards: the Russian pilot was keeping the F-15 covered.

The F-15 lost another battle with Russia’s Su-27 in the autumn of 2000, during the US-Japanese drills in the Pacific Ocean. Two Su-27 jets, covering the Su-24MP, conducted a sudden attack of the flagship of the US 7th fleet, Kitty Hawk. The US aircraft carrier would have been destroyed in real combat conditions.

The US Defense Department is seriously concerned about the growing sales of Su-27 and Su-30 all over the world. Russia has been shipping these jets to India, China, Malaysia, Venezuela, Indonesia and Algeria for years.

Now the US purchased two Su-27 fighter jets from Ukraine. The US military command will now be able to study the phenomenon of Russia’s Sukhoi design bureau thoroughly.

http://www.militarium.eu/article.aspx?ID=2780

The second I read “Strategypage” in the third paragraph my brain switched off, an utter fairytale story! This idea has been going round for years with no evidence.

A Typhoon sale to Japan would be a sales coup for EADS and BAE Systems (the partner leading that sales effort). Japan would in effect pay for Tranche 3 development solving a thorny issue for the partner nations.

The main thorn is the Boeing Silent Eagle which would be attractive solution but I think Japan sees that as second best, I do see a sale of the F35A to Japan to keep America happy in a split buy with Typhoon.

Difficult to do proper CAS from medium altitude, darn 27mm cannon just won’t hit the target from 10,000 feet….:p

Nothing wrong with low level penetration, still the way to go, its how you deliever ordinance over the target that matters, thats what the RAF learned. In other words don’t pass through flack to deliver a JP233. In GW2 the RAF still used low level penetration but fired off Storm Shadows 150 miles from the target….

A lot of tosh is written about the JP233 during GW1, no Tornado was shot down dropping this weapon. One did crash 16km after it had deployed the system but that was put down as a controlled flight into terrain incident.

After the war it was an easy scape goat for general tactical failings by the RAF. True the pilots didn’t like it as you were lit up like Christmas tree as you flew over the target, the violent trim changes when you dumped the pods and the HB-876 munitions were being banned under the anti mine treaty.

During GW1 four Tornado were shot down doing low level unguided toss bombing attacks, one dropping LGB and one after it had deployed JP233. It did cause a doctrinal change in the RAF with a move to medium altitude precision strike first by sending out the Buck with Pave Spike pods and later self designation using TIALD. The GR1 (and some GR4) did better in the 1999 Kosovo campaign operating in the precision strike role from medium altitude.

The Saudis took delivery last month of the first two of 72 Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft on order, while they continue talks with some defence contractors to buy short-range air-to-air missile systems for the aircraft. The following 315-word report focuses on the issue and tells which contractor is best placed to win the contract. Note that Diehl BGT Defence, MBDA and Raytheon are most concerned by the contract.

http://tacticalreport.com/view_news/Royal_Saudi_Air_Force_Eurofighter_IRIS-T_or_ASRAAM_missile/714

Probably best to wait a few more days for another source thats FREE to read, but until then I guess this will have to do.

So what do you think? ASRAAM or IRS-T?…

Would be interesting to know if they’re just going to arm Typhoon with ASRAAM or IRS-T, and also arm their F-15’s & Tornado’s too…

I would think its MBDA’s contest to loose, considering all the other missiles the Saudis are buying off them the ASRAAM should be a clear front runner.