I believe the RN looked at a 2-seater F-8 in the sixties, before opting for the Phantom. Anyone have any info on how keen they were, or any pictures of how it might have looked?
The RN would certainly had less problems operating the F-8 off their smaller carriers then the Phantom.
The absolute weight of additional equipment isn’t so important compared to the stability reserves of the vessel. Obviously stability reserve varies according to consumables carried (fuel, water, stores, munitions, ballast condition etc.) but if the stability is already close to acceptable limits then whether the extra equipment is light or heavy is not important, the reserves aren’t there.
In 1982 the Type 42’s were sent South to face a threat of Exocet sea skimming missiles, the Exocet threat was fully recognised, and the RN were well aware of the qualities of Exocet by virtue of having selected the missile themselves for use. The counter measures were already in service, and the UK themselves had developed a SAM with anti-missile capability against the weapon in the 70’s (Sea Wolf), the Phalanx was available. Bearing in mind that the UK suddenly found funds and sources of certain other systems very quickly, for these ships to be sent into combat against air and sea launched Exocet with nothing more than chaff and jamming to protect them was criminal. Most of the developed navies were working on counter measures against this threat in the 70’s, and the development of Sea Wolf is enough evidence that the UK RN was fully aware of the risks and need for a defence. By building these ships to a minimum possible spec, and then settling for a hull design that made even future upgrades dificult, was pathetic.
At least in the Type 45 the RN has avoided this mistake as that design has a large amount of reserve capacity for future upgrades. I’d like to have seen them fitted with Harpoon when new, and the ASW torpedo tubes, in this case though the RN have done it pretty well, concentrated on the core mission (air defence) with adequate in built upgrade potential to imprve the ships capabilities later.
Whilst the RN was well aware of the capabilities of Exocet they were not expecting to go up again that kind of system.
The development of Sea Wolf and Sea Dart was focused on the threat of a saturation attack by dozens of large Soviet Anti Ship missiles possibly armed with nuclear warheads. At the time Soviet weapons dived at high speed onto a target from quite a large distance. The Sea Dart was designed to take down the launch aircraft or at a push the missile which would be flying in a steady albeit quick dive. Sea Wolf is really a Sea Cat replacement with the bonus that it gave a point defence capability against leakers.
The RN in many ways regarded chaff to be one of the most effective defences against AShM after the Falklands war with the ultimate defence being a good CAP with AEW support.
Whilst much has been made of Phalanx and it’s introduction into the RN after the Falklands war in many ways it was added to RN ships to offer better protection against low flying fighter bombers armed with retarded bombs. Arguably Hms Coventry would of Survived if she had been armed with the rapid fire 30mm canon and Phalanx later fitted to her sisters. Many in the RN were unsure of the Phalanx and its performance against Sea Skimmers, its worth noting that the Phalanx itself was a crash program in response to the performance of the SS-N-2 fitted to various Soviet and client state vessels – this missile is far simpler for Phalanx to deal with then a sea skimmer.
Investment in anti sea skimmer missile technology by western navies wasn’t especially prevalent until the mid 80’s after the Falklands and the sinking of the USS Stark in the Gulf. In most cases this either involved more exotic electronic and semi active defence like ECM and programable chaff or upgrades of existing weapon systems to deal with sea skimmers.
Raytheon added a number of new modes and features to the Phalanx system to deal with the threat and the UK’s Sea Dart system was extensively upgraded making it a very potent weapon system now as shown by the succesful shooting down of a Iraqi ASHM during the first Gulf War.
…..not did the Italians (Audace, Durand de la Penne classes). few more navies.
The Italians treat the OTO type guns like Super Forty and 76mm Super Rapid as CIWS. With late generation proximity rounds they have the same effectiveness as a smaller calibre rapid fire gun like the Phalanx or AK630.
As for the French, well they do there own thing….
Frankly India needs to reduce the amount of types it uses not add one.
Considering India doesn’t have a carrier suitable for this type and the Su-30MKI more then meets their needs the F/A-18E/F would be an unnecessary luxury.
Whilst America is pushing a variant of the F-16 for India the logical choice would be the Mig-29 considering its already in their inventory.
Just for fun an Udaloy with both type of launch boxes.
Maybe the moderator needs to move this thread to the naval sub forum.
hmmm :confused: I tought the same boxes aplyed to SS-N-14 and SS-N-9 (for example it was fist tought that Krivaks used the later and caused much trouple to western naval thinkers..) Also there were shortrange anti-ship version of the project 934 cruisers (never materialized and the 934 eventually become project 1134)
The lauchers of SS-N-22 and SS-N-14 are quite different, I fail to see any justification that some professionals might confuse the two….
My Bad! There are detail differences between the SS-N-14 and SS-N-22 launch canister. Nevertheless it did cause much confusion to western naval analysts with them listing ships as being fitted with SS-N-14 when really they had been refited with SS-N-22.
Both the P-80 and P-270 do use the same launch canister, its enough to give you a headache. 😀 I bet western defence analysts use to go out of their mind trying to work out what the Russians had crammed onto there vessels.
Difficult but I think it is an Argentine Canberra, the next overhead shot definately looks Argentine.
Youtube is a daily destination for me on the web (along with this forum of course 😀 ). The video was quite good, I especially like the bits with Argentine GBADS. At least it didn’t add the fantasy section some Argentine’s add to their Falklands war videos with a computer generated video of the Invincable being hit.
P.S. Metallica Rule!
Looking aside from the confusing NATO designation they are very different weapons.
The Chelomei P-80 Zubr was a rocket propelled anti ship missile equipped with a 250Kg warhead. There is a Submarine launched variant of this weapon known as the P-100 Oniks.
Raduga makes the larger P-270 Moskit which is larger, ramjet powered and fitted with a 300Kg warhead.
Both these weapons use the box launcher developed for the SS-N-14 Silex which is primarily a long range ASW weapon. SS-N-14 (russian designation RPK Metel) utilises a rocket body based on the SS-N-9 (P-120) with an underslung asw torpedo. Later variants are universal asw/asm systems with the inclusion of a 185Kg shaped charge warhead for anti ship duties.
All the confusion is caused by the the use of the same box launcher which meant for a long time NATO thought that ship’s like the Udaloy or Sovremenny were fitted with the SS-N-14.
Argentinian Type 42s had 2×2 MM39, bet the Uk ships could have adopted those (or 2×2 Harpoon, which take up less space) in a rush if necessary. As for ships, few – if any – contemporary ship had a CIWS. And there was room for upgrading, witness e.g. new search radar, addition of 2x Phalanx CIWS (if at the expense of ship’s boats). The loss of Sheffield and Coventry is not necessarily due to shortcomings of the Type 42 imho.
The thing about type 42 is there isn’t any space for much upgrading, to make room for the Phalanx CIWS the ships boats had to be removed.
At least one batch 3 had Phalanx installed on a tower on the foredeck as an experiment which was interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS-N-22_Sunburn
What the?
Don’t they even look the same? That’s what I thought, and now it seems they are totally different :S
Indeed there are two different SS-N-22s, all down to NATO thinking that several different programs were the same.
Even more confusingly they use the same Box launcher as the SS-N-14.
Having been on Montrose, the crew certainly talked about signature reduction having been one aspect of the design. Personally, not a great fan of the Dukes, especially the use of a missile-specific VLS – a Mk41 would have been a lot better in my opinion, but they are good ships. Hopefully they will eventually be replaced by a general purpose Type 45 in due course – the proposed stretched version would be a great fit.
From what I remember, the Lekiu class had some problems with topweight and build quality, anyone know any more on this?
A life extension for the Type 23’s and a few stretched general perpose Type 45 to replace the Batch 3 Type 22 are probably the best we can hope for since the frigate replacement program was scrapped.
Ahhhh the Dhc Chipmunk the first aircraft I ever flew in down at Hurn courtesy of the ATC. (A Canadian aircraft for the person who said it was British! 🙂 )
A 1 to 1 replica of the Chipmunk would be quite a challenge requiring alot of time and money as well as some original components (cockpit glass etc…) and the paperwork would be murder.
A Fibreglass scale replica along the lines of the Isaacs Spitfire could be possible but again the paperwork and cost would be an issue.
If you are keen to go down the Kit root the Popular Flying Association would be a good start they will be able to put you in contact with people who have experiance of the process and pitfalls (as well as the enjoyment) of building your own aircraft:
I’m sure if you look at there approved list of kits you will find something that fits in with your tastes.
Yarrow offered an entire series of stretched and shortened Type 23 frigate variants. Most people know about the 7 and 10 meter “stretches” offered to the RN, but there export proposals that were 13 to 28 meters shorter than the production Type 23.
Wasn’t a stretched anti air warfare variant looked at with mk41 vls and Standard SM2 as a fallback concept? I vaguely remember it being mentioned somewhere but can’t remember much more than that.
As far as Im aware the the targeting pod will go on one of the slots usually used by an AMRAAM or METEOR.
The Litening pod was chosen by the RAF other models can be integrated onto the Eurofighter allowing some choice to potential customers.
From http://www.f-16.net/news_article1888.html
With the way this little fighter is gaining orders, I think they’ll still be producing them when they start scrapping F-35’s!
The F 16 was really the only fighter type on the cards for Taiwan so its not particularly a big surprise. Of course the devil is in the detail and it will be interesting to see the specification of the final product.
Taiwan is still waiting for the Diesel submarines.