Ummmm, ok so, what happen to…….

Cobra, Super-Cobra, Frolov Chakra, Kulbit, Helicopter…… etc… etc…..:confused:

PS: whats the difference between Frolov Chakra & Kulbit Have seen tons of Su-37/30MKI, MiG-29OVT videos but still have no clue 😮 😮 So, please bare with me. Some diagrams would be nice…

The Cobra turn is a Pugachev cobra but the aircraft slips sideways, the Frolov Chakra is a Pugachev cobra but instead of a 120 degree AoA the aircraft gets an AoA of 360 degrees, so it spins in its own axis, Kulbit is a Frolov Chakra but in that Video is not making a Frolov Chakra but a tail slide that ends up in a tight turn

In the Video showed by JFRAIZER the F-22 is making a tight loop or BELL not a Kulbit, the kulbit or Frolov Chakra the aircraft moves forward makes the Pugachev`s cobra but continues the spin or somersault gains a bit of altiude and contines flying forward lossing altitude

Kulbit

This is the bell, the F-22 is doing the Bell in the Video Fraizer linked

http://wmilitary.neurok.ru/su37/su37display.html

Yes, I’ve seen the artists’ conception drawings. Hmmm…where have I seen that design before?

I would hope it’s better than that, wouldn’t you?

name another engine with a thrust of 20000kg that you can fit into a fighter of 18000kg of normal take off, of course it won`t be a R&R trent 900

or is this your ideal fighter?

😀

I’m sorry but that logic just doesn’t wash. Using that logic I could slap on couple of F135s to an F-14 (or F-15 take your pick) and it could out turn an F-22. Complete nonsense. Without taking into account a whole host of variables relating to wing design, stability margins and control laws you are at very best coming up with very rough numbers with a very large margin of error.

I think you guys are getting into a pissing contest over nothing. History hasn’t really shown that exceptional maneuverability (slow speed) to have ever been decisive. It has always boiled down the man in the crate. Air combat has always been a game of surprise. Surprise is broken down into the following elements: sensors, tactics, and training. Other factors are not as critical. The slow speed fight is interesting and is a nice capability to have, but it’s very debatable that any of these jets have a decisive advantage in that regard.

Further, the much more interesting data (certainly classified) is the maneuverability capabilities in the mid to high subsonic/transonic and supersonic realm. This is where the majority of WVR fights occur and is going to be even more pertinent now that HOB missiles are now widely fielded. Combat now consists of the BVR jousting, followed by pre-merge positioning by the survivors (and or supporting elements) then followed by WVR blow through attacks with a bunch of HOBM flying through the air. The guy who gets slow (F-22 included) WILL get impaled if a hostile supporting element comes blasting into the fight in support of they who you might have killed with a circus maneuver. You’re slow and he’s not, your dead.

BDF

No one claims you can not fit an F-135 to an F-15 or F-14, the only think the Russian are saying is this:

with computer software, they calculated the flying characteristcs of a MiG-23ML fitted with an AL-41F, their conclusions were the MiG-23 can get similar performance to an F-22 fitted with the AL-41F

Any nation can equip modern engines to their fighters no doubt about it but only Russia and the US have such engines now, the MiG-23 is an aircraft that can be fitted easily with the AL-41 and the study was to satisfy an ethiopian request to improve and upgrade their fighters.

But you are also forgeting the Russians will equip also the Su-35 with Al-41Fs and the reason they do that is simple, get a super fourth generation fighter that can dogfight with the F-22 and beat it.

See they are saying a MiG-23 ML equipped with an AL-41 can dogfight with an F-22 on equal terms;)
It proves you it is mostly the engine what makes the F-22 an agile fighter, however the MiG-23ML also got improved its acceleration and therefore its supercruise capability, it is not only agility but also acceleration what you improve with an AL-41

ROFL! That’s quite an imagination you have there. But then we knew that already.

Man i feel you lack imagination, because the Russians can do it read this article
http://www.be-and-co.com/ako/dvigatelestroenie/i-v-aviatsii-vsyo-genialnoe-ne-stol-uzh-slozhno/

двигателя этого типа создают самолету тяговооруженность на земле на режиме «полный форсаж», соответствующую 1,2 ед. Это выше, чем у любого другого истребителя в мире, будь то Eurofighter-2000, Mirage-2000 или да¬же Су-37. Поэтому, чтобы приблизиться или превзойти характеристики F-22 Raptor, отечественный истребитель МиГ необходимо оснастить силовой установкой из двух ТРДДФ, способных обеспечить на земле при работе на режиме «полный форсаж» это же значение тяговооруженности. Для российских авиационных комплексов семейства «Су» такой ТРДДФ должен обладать тягой на режиме полного форсажа в 20.000 кгс на каждый двигатель, то есть, суммарной тягой силовой установки в 40.000 кгс. Для МиГ-23МЛ подобным двигателем может стать ТРДДФ АЛ-41 Ф или ему подобный 5-го поколения.

This is explained as following; a fifth generation russian fighter needs at least a unitary thrust of an AL-41 of 20000 kgs and a a total of 40000kg to beat the F-22 in terms of thrust to weight ratio, higher than the 26000kgs a Su-27 generates currently however a single engine should be able to power and generate enough power to give to the PAK-FA a thrust to weight ratio of 1.2:1 in the case of the MiG-23ML, this is only achieved with the retrofitting of an AL-41F, that gives it a thrust to weight ratio similar to the F-22 or PAK-FA

See that the MiG-23 is a quit light aircraft, its empty weight is only 9900kgs so an AL-41 gives it a really high thrust to weight ratio in the class of the F-22, even its weight load is only 14700kg

Now let us examine a question about the maneuverability characteristics of this machine, using a procedure of German professor K Heineker, and by the Russian development of the author of this article (published in the collection of the works of defense of the University of Debrezeite in 2001.). With respect to it we compare horizontal turn rate with the use of a nozzle with variable thrust vectoring and without it.
We calculated the turn radius while this maneuvering. Which is interesting, if we compared to the F-22
We assume, that the turning of the nozzle is achieved in the pitching plane to the angles +- 20° as in F -22, so in MiG-23ML. The ratio of the parameters of angular rate of rotation MiG-23ML to F -22 composes 0,963.

Теперь рассмотрим вопрос о маневренных характеристиках этой машины, используя методику немецкого профессора К.Хайнека,дополненную российской разработкой автора этой статьи (опубликована в сборнике трудов Оборонного университета в Деб-ре-Зейте в 2001 г.). По ней мы сравниваем скорость вращения самолета на вираже в горизонтальной плоскости с применением многоракурсного сопла с изменяемым вектором тяги и без такового. Или рассчитываем радиус виража, который описывает самолет при этом маневре. Что любопытно, сравнивать будем с истребителем F-22 Raptor.Принимаем, что поворот многоракурсного сопла осуществляется в плоскости тангажа на углы +/- 20° как у F-22, так и у МиГ-23МЛ. Отношение параметров угловой скорости вращения МиГ-23 к F-22 составляет 0,963. То есть, старенький советский истребитель .

the parameters, identical for both engines [TRDDF]) it is obtained by 1550,7 m, and it is identical in both machines. Thus, [re-engine of domestic fighter aircraft is capable of drawing nearer and of even making even the parameters of maneuverability of the MiG-23ML with the F-22 Raptor. The angular velocity of turn in this case corresponds 12° per second.

параметрах, идентичных для обоих ТРДДФ) получается 1550,7 м, и у обеих машин одинаков. Таким образом, ремоторизация отечественных истребителей способна приблизить и даже уравнять параметры маневренности МиГ-23МЛ с F-22 Raptor. Угловая скорость виража при этом соответствует 12° в секунду.

The difference is the F-22 is actually flying where the Flanker is just using it’s momentum to pull it off. What the F-22 is doing is actually far more impressive if you actually understand what you’re looking at.

You are wrong the Su-37 can do the same maneouvre it is a simple tight turn after a tail slide the SU-37 can do it and has done it since the 1990s and more important it is not the famous Frolov`s chakra or Cobra Turn, the F-22 is only executing tail slides (a MiG-29A can do that) and a tight turn after a tail slide.

The Su-37 can do two somersaults and spins on its own axis and at no the moment the F-22 it is doing that.

Without a stealthed radar signature and caveats such as an internal weapons bay, infrared suppression, self-contained electronic self-protection systems, etc. you’d have to wonder what advantage does it offer? The MiG-23 is pretty well a retired platform across the world.

MadRat

The article only mentions the fact that if you re-engine the MiG-23Ml with a new engine such as the Al-41 only its performance and maneuvrability will be improved, not that it will become a fifth generation aircraft

India has upgraded some of its fleet of MiG-23 and MiG-27 with the AL-31, they mentioned that study was made in part due to a petition by the Ethiopian government.

In fact any aircraft can be upgraded with a thrust vectoring engine, what the article only mentions is that if a client is interested in re-engining some MiG-23s they still can upgrade it to the level it will be able to fight even an Eurofighter in some parts of the flight envelop.

The MiG-23 is not a super fighter but the Al-41 is a super engine for today`s standards and this can turn a relatively obsolete aircraft into something that can fight a 4.5 generation aircraft and can dogfight with a F-22.

However this type of engines can turn almost any fighter into excellent dogfighters, missiles like the Python V and engines like the AL-41 can turn your average third world fighter into a menace for today`s 4.5 generation fighters

It is true that even a MiG-23ML fitted with Al-41 and Python V won`t become an F-22 class fighter in terms of stealth, what the article only mentions is that in terms of supercruise and super maneuvrability well the engine will do the most important part to turn the obsolecent MiG-23 into an Eurofighter kind of aircraft

двигателя этого типа создают самолету тяговооруженность на земле на режиме «полный форсаж», соответствующую 1,2 ед. Это выше, чем у любого другого истребителя в мире, будь то Eurofighter-2000, Mirage-2000 или да¬же Су-37. Поэтому, чтобы приблизиться или превзойти характеристики F-22 Raptor, отечественный истребитель МиГ необходимо оснастить силовой установкой из двух ТРДДФ, способных обеспечить на земле при работе на режиме «полный форсаж» это же значение тяговооруженности. Для российских авиационных комплексов семейства «Су» такой ТРДДФ должен обладать тягой на режиме полного форсажа в 20.000 кгс на каждый двигатель, то есть, суммарной тягой силовой установки в 40.000 кгс. Для МиГ-23МЛ подобным двигателем может стать ТРДДФ АЛ-41 Ф или ему подобный 5-го поколения.

This is explained as following; a fifth generation russian fighter needs at least a unitary thrust of an AL-41 of 20000 kgs and a a total of 40000kg to beat the F-22 in terms of thrust to weight ratio, higher than the 26000kgs a Su-27 generates currently however a single engine should be able to power and generate enough power to give to the PAK-FA a thrust to weight ratio of 1.2:1 in the case of the MiG-23ML, this is only achieved with the retrofitting of an AL-41F, that gives it a thrust to weight ratio similar to the F-22 or PAK-FA

See that the MiG-23 is a quit light aircraft, its empty weight is only 9900kgs so an AL-41 gives it a really high thrust to weight ratio in the class of the F-22, even its weight load is only 14700kg

http://www.be-and-co.com/ako/dvigatelestroenie/i-v-aviatsii-vsyo-genialnoe-ne-stol-uzh-slozhno/