:rolleyes: Russia is far more open to the West than China. In fact, the West DID invest more in Russia than China. Germany and Europe invested far more in Russia than China. During the beginning of the China boom, 90 percent of all investment in China came from Taiwan, Hong Kong and the Overseas Chinese community. There was hardly any great rush of Western investment in China in the early 1990s in light of what happened in 1989.

Even today the majority of investment comes from overseas Chinese though Western investment had picked up because unlike Russia, China has a massive domestic market. General Motors, KFC or Caterpillar can actually make China its top overseas market which can’t happen in Russia simply because Russia’s consumer spending power is less than a fifth of China’s.

Greater level of German and other Western investment did happen and it did not make Russia’s economy bigger than China. China’s growth is first and foremost an overseas Chinese funded phenomenon.

Trade between Russia and China today is actually pretty lopsided. Most manufactured goods go from China to Russia. Russian export to China, outside of arms, is mainly oil and raw material. Arms contract are at the most $2-3 billion out of a total trade volume of $30 billion.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/business/russia-turns-up-trade-heat-on-china/2006/03/23/1143083906152.html

China has recived western and japanese investement via Taiwan, in fact great part of the western investment in China was via Taiwan and Hong Kong, the Myth of Taiwan and south Korea directly investing in China is a half truth, the US and Japan have been investing through that way for many years throught out taiwanese companies to cite an example because the US have been working transfering technology to asian companies and throught them investing in China but they still recieve royalties from the Asian companies and the Chinese

Today`s Russia FDI is quit high around a 4th of China`s consider Russia`s population is a 10th of China`s and the Russian economic growth is as high as China in many aspects and the per capita income is higher even the HDI , Russia will achieve faster than Brazil and China the status of developed economy and very likely it`s economy per capita income will surpass China and Brazil by a great margin in 2020, Russia`s economy by no means is inferior to China because China exports many electronics it does not mean the the Chinese directly or inderectly do not pay royalties to the Western companies investing directly or indirectly via Taiwan in China.
You also forget Russia is one of the Nations that exports and imports more in the world Russia is not far from Mexico in the world ranking it is in fact second only to Mexico

The J-10 still uses a lots of Russian technology to called a real domestic chinese product in fat it shou be called katainsky-Russky istrevitel:D .

in fact this is one of the possible candidates to power the J-10

http://lenta.ru/news/2007/01/10/al31/

The MiG-23 was designed as a response to the F-4 Phantom II, the first MiG-21s were basicly second generation fighters, they lacked the missile armament and avionics associated with the third generation.

The best MiG-23 variants can hold 8.5Gs below the speed of Mach 0.85; the F-4E Phantom II barely can hold a max of 7.6Gs in operational service.
The MiG-23ML load factor is 8.5Gs below Mach 0.85 and beyond Mach 0.85 is 7.5Gs, The MiG-23MF has a slightly lower load factor of 8Gs at Mach 0.85 and a load factor of 7Gs above Mach 0.85, note that the IAI Kfir had a maximun load factor of 7.6Gs, this factors made the MiG-23 more than a match for the F-4 and Kfir, this forced in 1982 to the Israeli air force to rely on F-15s and F-16s as the main Israeli fighters since the MiG-23 clearly out machted the IAI Kfir in the air to air arena and was slightly better than the F-4.

The MiG-23 was also a fast design slightly faster than the F-4 Phantom and much faster than the Mirage III, Mirage F1 and MiG-21.
In 1967, the Defense Intelligence Agency secretly acquired a single MiG-21. Comparisons between the F-4 and the MiG-21 indicated that, on the surface, they were evenly matched. At a speed of Mach 0.9 at 15,000 feet the instantaneous turn rates of the two planes were nearly identical, at 13.5 deg/sec. At Mach 0.5, the MiG-21 held the edge at 11.1 deg/sec versus 7.8 deg/sec for the F-4.
If we compare this data with the known data for the MiG-23ML we can see the MiG-23ML is more or less an agile aircraft for a third generation aircraft, we know from the MiG-23 manual that the MiG-23ML starting from a speed of 900km/h at 5000 meters of altitude, it will take 23 seconds for the MiG-23ML to do a 360 degrees turn at the wing sweep angle of 45 degrees, this will disaccelerate the MiG-23ML to the speed of 490km/h this gives an average sustained turn higher than that of the MiG-21 and F-4 at the same conditions.
At 1000 meters and at 980 km/h the MiG-23ML pulls a Max instantaneous turn rate of 16.7 deg/sec and a Max sustained of 14.1 deg/sec.
We can see quit easily the MiG-23ML is slightly more agile than the MiG-21 and F-4.

You can expect the MiG-23 and F-4 to be more evely matched but the MiG-23 has some chances of beating the F-4 as it happened according to Russian sources in the bekka valley

On June 9 two MiG-23MS manned by the Syrian pilots Ali and Tomi engaged a group of Israeli F-4 Phantoms, they brought down an F-4E using the well known AA-2 Atoll air to air missile, they fired R-3S and R-13Ms at the Israeli aircraft, however both pilots were brought down very likely by Israeli F-15s guided by E-2 Hawkeyes

This feat was repeated on 11 June 1982 when two MiG-23MS flown by the Syrian pilots Heyrat and Zabi shot down an Israeli F-4E using a pair of AA-2 Atolls basicly an R-13 and an R-3, however both MiG-23MS pilots were then shot down.

[QUOTE=Banshee;1065422]

Neither nuclear-armed USA nor nuclear-armed Israel have any business attacking Iran. ESPECIALLY the latter, what with the value they put on territorial sovereignty and all. So Ahmadinejad talks about wiping Israel off the map, so what? A lot of world leaders threaten other nations with far less international fanfare. We’re only supposed to really care in this case because it’s Israel.[/QUOTE

A Madman who will in a year or two, have the means to do just that…and whats more, a man who believes it is his birthright to bring about world armageddon.

And we are supposed to ignore it:eek:

The trouble is, we have been running around all over the place, ignoring the real problem in the middle east for way too long…

If the world wants a settled Middle east, then it needs to take the bull by the horns and deal with Iran..

If true, any Isreali nuclear attack on Iran will bring about an Iranian responce of chemical or biological weapons hurled at Isreali Cities from Lebanon aswell as Iran..

Then what does Isreal do???

Then we are in an whole new ball game, since we will all find ourselves in a war between two cultures, with the inevitable risk of this Iranian nutter having acheived his birthright!!

There is no option here, this needs to be dealt with today, since there may be no tomorrow.

Problem is, Bush and Blairs Iraqi adventure has proberly done more in strengthening the mullahs, since there will now be no public desire for a western strike on Iran..

What a mess… i bet this would not have happened during the cold war:D

After see how beautiful is life i can only say wars are things i hope we do not suffer, life is too precious to be wasted in wars

I would say Brazil

Hello everyone,

I see no point for Mexico to procure Su-27s; several second-hand fighters with lower maintenance costs would be more suitable in my opinion.
Then again, one can never discount a slightly nationalistic motivation as being a deciding factor in the acquisition of the Flankers.

The Su-27 Flanker is the best option for Mexico, why? well first the Mexican navy has no real interceptor its only jet that operates are learjets, the Flanker is also better in that is fast and agile and has excellent range, this give it the best patrolling range, no other aircraft can achieve that specially at the price they offer them.
Russia and Mexico signed an agreement to bolster their military relations and the Su-27 proves Russia is willing to equip Mexico with a descent fighter.

This was signed in 2004
Putin visits Mexico

Russian President Vladimir Putin flew to Mexico on Monday for talks with his Mexican counterpart, who has said he hoped to increase military cooperation with Moscow.

The Putin visit was the first by a Russian head of state since the countries established diplomatic relations in 1891, said Agustin Gutierrez, a spokesman for President Vicente Fox.

Also on the agenda were law-enforcement and financial issues, Mexican officials said.

Fox said last week Mexico hoped it would begin assembling some Russian helicopters and importing a mixed civilian-military factory.

Fox and Putin were expected to sign minor agreements on transferring prisoners, the elimination of double taxes on rent, foreign investment and cultural exchanges.

On military matters, Fox has said possible projects include the installation of a large maintenance center for helicopters as the first step in a plan to assemble the Russian aircraft in the Gulf coast state of Veracruz.

The Mexican president said he also hoped to sign an agreement with Putin for a plant that would assemble heavy machinery for the military industry, saying such a factory would be constructed in Ciudad Sahagun, 50 miles northeast of Mexico City.

Mexico largely spurned Russian military equipment during the Cold War, but has begun to adopt some Russian armaments, which are less expensive than those sold by the United States or most European suppliers.

Mexico’s Air Force and Navy operate at least 56 Russian-made transport helicopters, according to the International Institute for Strategic Studies.

Source: Agencies

source http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200406/08/eng20040608_145636.html

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E04E3DD1430F933A25755C0A9629C8B63&n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fPeople%2fF%2fFox%20Quesada%2c%20Vicente

Mig-23

During the time this thread has been open, thousands more Mexicans have demonstrated how much faith they have in Mexico’s ability to provide them with the the good life, by putting on their running shoes and heading north of the Rio Grande.

Putting all talk about Mexican vacations, Mexican girl friends and Flankers aside, that is the reality.

By the way, my bio clearly states were I hail from. Yours is blank!

Sauron

Sauron

I feel you over estimate the so called american dream i will tell you how it is for mexicans living out there:

A)Constant fear of being arrested due to the fact they have no Visa
B)constantly exploited and cheated because they have no visa and have no work permit rights
C)criminalized and exploited because they look for job
D)share overcrowed accomodation many times in places full of rats and coachroaches
E) discriminated because they speak their own language

SO please before you paint your north american dream live like a WET BACK as your own society have call them.
Your knowledge of Mexico is quit small buddy, The mexicans who have faith in Mexico are at the schools because they know studing they have a future in their own country without being persecuted and exploited by arrogant and abusive peopleThe Mexicans who have faith in Mexico are those fighting for a better Mexico in Mexico throught out getting an education and the improvement of democracy and justice in their own land

And certainly that includes a migratory deal with the US and Canada and a guest working program they fight for that but more important they fight for their country have a larger industrial base.

Six Flanker by no means affect that specially because the Mexican navy has no real interceptors and only survailance aircraft unless you call a Learjet the best aircraft for intercepting fast jets.
source http://www.semar.gob.mx/galeria/aeronaves/leardjet25d/Learjet25d.htm
By the way man meet Mexicans and live in mexico for longer than those vacations in cancun you will discover a nation mre complex than you think.

Flex297

I can see no valid reason why Mexico needs fighter aircraft of any type. Certainly not to fight drug runners. Mexican officials are the drug runners in many cases. Mexico should concentrate on air assets which can be used in civil defense. Who is going to attack a country were the biggest industry is exporting it’s poor people? Poor people need jobs and services, not expensive aircraft supplied by another country who can’t look after it’s own people.

You could argue that the situation in Mexico is actually a positive for the U.S. Lot’s of poor people who want to work, find work, and improve themselves, pay taxes and advance the economy, are Christian and fit in traditional U.S. values and as a bonus don’t seem to spend a lot of time whining about being victims. Contrast that with problems with immigration in other nations (unnamed) who attract folks who share no values, don’t fit in, and don’t want to fit in and sometimes try to blow the place up.

Sauron

Saoron

Do you have mexican friends? have you ever been and live in Mexico for more than 6 months? have you ever have a mexican girl friend?

Man you whole argument sounds childish any nation buys what ever they neeed you are no one to talk what Mexico needs because you are not even mexican or are you?

You whole arguments reflects you do not know Mexico niether the Mexican people, you are solely basing the idea Mexican are poor people fleeing a country in total chaos, Mexico is not like that, Mexico like any country has problems and a small fleet of Su-27s does not represent any real threat to all the Mexican neighbourghs or an economic burden to the Mexican people.

Mexico is in general a good country to live if you work hard and get educated, part of mexico`s problems is that education is not as important as it should be culturally and the mirage of the US dream too strong.
The Government is true needs to spend more in educating their people but that will mean tax the rich and foreign companies more, so if you do not see it in reality Canada and the US also have a great share of responsability in the illegal immigration isue, not all the resposability is true but some.

When you force your government to force the canadian firms to pay the same salaries in NAFTA you will see mexicans won`t immigrate to Canada or the US, when Mexicans stop seeing in the US a economic refuge for their lack of resposability they will stop going there and when the Mexican Government develop more technology and ask more technology transfers to the companies investing in Mexico you will see more wealth in Mexico,

In the meantime buddy stop living in a Fantasy world and meet more Mexican people you will see there is a great diversity of people and thinking and by the way they work hard

ANYWAY. If the Mexican FLANKERs are the same standard as the Vietnamese Su-27s (as in not their Su-30s), then they’ll be baseline Su-27SKs. That pretty much makes them air defense aircraft by default. Good for hunting drug planes, but not really anything else in a counter-drug role. Su-30MK2s with their anti-ship features might have been a better choice, although the Su-27SKs would be far cheaper and possibly even available as refurbished second-hand airframes from the RusAF.

According to the Mexican navy document they are buying Su-27SKM and Su-30MK2

http://www.semar.gob.mx/informes/rendicion_de_cuentas_06/3ra-Etapa.pdf