MiG-23MLDIf you’re going to copy-paste from Wikipedia, at least acknowledge the source…
Sorry here they are
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_Islands
MiG-23MLDGood cut and paste, I wasnt lecturing you about the Falklands, I was lecturing you about feeling the need to dirty up every post with useless garbage.
You just proved my point.
I have bit my tongue long enough about this, it seems someone needs to do this and it appears it will be me!
Your ruining a great source of information by constantly playing the devils advocate and trying to prove something to someone somewhere… for the love of god please stop!
Doesnt this forum have an ignore feature that one can chose to never see a post by another poster?
I am entitled to my personal opinions and world view simply like that, by the way i won`t argue more history in the thread with you but if you want to continue talking about History just send me private messages and we can talk about History, but believe i know what i am talking about.
by the way read this article highly recomended
http://www.asia.msu.edu/eastasia/HongKong/history.html
MiG-23MLDYou talk too much, stop being a troll.
(and the British LEASED Hong Kong and thier lease ran out in ’97, had nothing to do with ICBM’s):rolleyes:
Please you won`t lecture me in politics,
Falklands islands
History
The Falklands were discovered in 1520 by Esteban Go’mez, crew member of the ship San Antonio, one of the boats of
expedition of Magallanes. according to the papal territories boundary of bulas, the islands belonged to Spain. Nevertheless,
English, Dutch and French navigators arrived at the islands in diverse opportunities.
In 1690, the captain of British navy John Strong sailed by the Straits of San Carlos, that separates the Falklands, and it called it
Straits of Falkland in memory of sir Lucius Cary, second vizconde of Falkland.
In 1764 there was a French occupation on the part of Luis de Bougainville, who founded the port of San Luis on the Eastern island.
French called to the Malouines islands, because that one was the name given to the been born ones in Saint Maló, the French port of where
they came. The Spaniards obtained the port of San Luis after a seat of protests and transformed Malouines into the Falklands. In
1765, an English expedition arrived at the islands and it denominated Falkland Islands. In 1770, the English forces of occupation were
evacuated by Spain, that protested to sovereignty of the islands by via diplomat. When the Virreinato of the River was created of
Silver, the Falklands happened to depend on the government of Buenos Aires. From 1774 to 1810, Spain named successive
governors for the archipelago.
In 1776, when the virreinato of the River of the Silver was created, the Falklands islands were included in the territory of the government of
Buenos Aires. After 1810, the islands followed under that jurisdiction. In 1820, the Argentina frigate the Heroin was sent a
The Falklands to take definitive possession from the islands. In 1825 a significant fact took place: Great Britain recognized
Argentina independence and did not demand the islands. In 1828, the government of Buenos Aires granted Luis Vernet, in concession,
Port solitude so that it constructed a colony. For it, it took to one hundred gauchos and Indians of Pampas, capable in the young of
cattle.
English dominion
In 1829, Vernet was named governor of the Falklands. And that same Great Britain year demanded its right of sovereignty on
the islands, adjudging itself its discovery. In 1833 that nation it took the Falklands under his dominion, expelling to the authorities
Creoles. Since then, Argentina has never let demand its sovereignty on the archipelago.
The Falkland Islands have had a complex history since their discovery, with France, Britain, Spain and Argentina all claiming possession and establishing as well as abandoning settlements on the islands. The Spanish government’s claim was continued by Argentina after the latter’s independence in 1816 and the independence war in 1817, until 1833 when the United Kingdom took control of the islands by force, following the destruction of the Argentine settlement at Puerto Soledad by the American sloop USS Lexington (December 28, 1831
The Chinese became strong and suddenly difficult to cheat that is the reason England left and you use beautiful words to call a English colony, but certainly was gained by force as the falklands see these
The area now known as Hong Kong became an important trading region and a significant strategic location for the Chinese mainland during the Tang and Song dynasties. These populated townships or villages had never been collectively known as Hong Kong before the British administration. The area began to attract the attention of China and the rest of the world again in the 19th century, when it was ceded to Britain after the Opium Wars. Hong Kong’s earliest recorded non-Asian visitor was the Portuguese mariner Jorge Álvares who arrived in 1513. Álvares began trading with the Chinese, and the Portuguese continued to make periodic trade stops at various locations along the coast.
Tea, silk, and other Asian luxury goods were introduced in Europe by the Portuguese, and by the mid-18th century these items were in high demand, particularly tea. The British, to redress their net outflow of payments to China for tea and to force China to conduct relations like other states, invaded China, winning the First Opium War in 1841. During the war, Hong Kong Island was first occupied by the British, and then formally ceded by the Qing Dynasty of China in 1842 under the Treaty of Nanking.
MiG-23MLDUmm, no one invaded Hong Kong, thats what made it different!
No buddy it is not as you claim Hong kong was Chinese and has been always chinese as the Falklands were a Spanish possesion and part of Argentina, the difference is China can fire ICBMs and Argentina can not, the british know well China is more than they can chew so they simply left before the Chinese showed their ICBMs, Argentina tried in a very stupid way to re take the Falklands by force, that was someting they were unable to chew and achieve and they lost the war and the Falklands
MiG-23MLDOh, please………….:(
No please scooter, go to Mexico and work for the salaries the US and Canadian firms pay to their Mexican workers and you will understand the real problem of immigration is more complex than usually is seen in the US, ilegal immigration is used by both the US and Mexican governments to blame each other but in reality both nations share resposability as neighbours, however Mexico as nation can simply choose to look for alternative ways of developement and that is the reason the Russians have entered in Mexico in terms of aviation or why Mexico is signing so many free trade agreements with other nations other the US or Canada.
Here is trhe human development index
High
Rank Country HDI
1 Norway 0.965
2 Iceland 0.960
3 Australia 0.957
4 Ireland 0.956
5 Sweden 0.951
6 Canada 0.950
7 Japan 0.949
8 United States 0.948
9 Switzerland 0.947
10 Netherlands 0.947
11 Finland 0.947
12 Luxembourg 0.945
13 Belgium 0.945
14 Austria 0.944
15 Denmark 0.943
16 France 0.942
17 United Kingdom 0.940
18 Italy 0.940
19 Spain 0.938
20 New Zealand 0.936
21 Germany 0.932
22 Hong Kong SAR, China 0.927
23 Israel 0.927
24 Greece 0.921
25 Singapore 0.916
26 South Korea 0.912
27 Slovenia 0.910
28 Portugal 0.904
29 Cyprus 0.903
30 Czech Republic 0.885
31 Barbados 0.879
32 Malta 0.875
Rank Country HDI
33 Kuwait 0.871
34 Brunei 0.871
35 Hungary 0.869
36 Argentina 0.863
37 Poland 0.862
38 Chile 0.859
39 Bahrain 0.859
40 Estonia 0.858
41 Lithuania 0.857
42 Slovakia 0.856
43 Uruguay 0.851
44 Croatia 0.846
45 Latvia 0.845
46 Qatar 0.844
47 Seychelles 0.842
48 Costa Rica 0.841
49 United Arab Emirates 0.839
50 Cuba 0.826
51 Saint Kitts and Nevis 0.825
52 Bahamas 0.825
53 Mexico 0.821
54 Bulgaria 0.816
55 Tonga 0.815
56 Oman 0.810
57 Trinidad and Tobago 0.809
58 Panama 0.809
59 Antigua and Barbuda 0.808
60 Romania 0.805
61 Malaysia 0.805
62 Bosnia and Herzegovina 0.800
63 Mauritius 0.800
[edit] Medium
Rank Country HDI
64 Libya 0.798
65 Russian Federation 0.797
66 Republic of Macedonia 0.796
67 Belarus 0.794
68 Dominica 0.793
69 Brazil 0.792
70 Colombia 0.790
71 Saint Lucia 0.790
72 Venezuela 0.784
73 Albania 0.784
74 Thailand 0.784
75 Samoa 0.778
76 Saudi Arabia 0.777
77 Ukraine 0.774
78 Lebanon 0.774
79 Kazakhstan 0.774
80 Armenia 0.768
81 China (PRC)[2] 0.768
82 Peru 0.767
83 Ecuador 0.765
84 Philippines 0.763
85 Grenada 0.762
86 Jordan 0.760
87 Tunisia 0.760
88 Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 0.759
89 Suriname 0.759
90 Fiji 0.758
91 Paraguay 0.757
92 Turkey 0.757
93 Sri Lanka 0.755
94 Dominican Republic 0.751
95 Belize 0.751
96 Iran 0.746
97 Georgia 0.743
98 Maldives 0.739
99 Azerbaijan 0.736
100 Palestinian territories 0.736
101 El Salvador 0.729
102 Algeria 0.728
103 Guyana 0.725
104 Jamaica 0.724
105 Turkmenistan 0.724
Rank Country HDI
106 Cape Verde 0.722
107 Syria 0.716
108 Indonesia 0.711
109 Vietnam 0.709
110 Kyrgyzstan 0.705
111 Egypt 0.702
112 Nicaragua 0.698
113 Uzbekistan 0.696
114 Moldova 0.694
115 Bolivia 0.692
116 Mongolia 0.691
117 Honduras 0.683
118 Guatemala 0.673
119 Vanuatu 0.670
120 Equatorial Guinea 0.653
121 South Africa 0.653
122 Tajikistan 0.652
123 Morocco 0.640
124 Gabon 0.633
125 Namibia 0.626
126 India 0.611
127 São Tomé and Príncipe 0.607
128 Solomon Islands 0.592
129 Cambodia 0.583
130 Myanmar 0.581
131 Botswana 0.570
132 Comoros 0.556
133 Laos 0.553
134 Pakistan 0.539
135 Bhutan 0.538
136 Ghana 0.532
137 Bangladesh 0.530
138 Nepal 0.527
139 Papua New Guinea 0.523
140 Republic of the Congo[3] 0.520
141 Sudan 0.516
142 Timor-Leste[4] 0.512
143 Madagascar 0.509
144 Cameroon 0.506
145 Uganda 0.502
146 Swaziland 0.500
[edit] Low
Rank Country HDI
147 Togo 0.495
148 Djibouti 0.494
149 Lesotho 0.494
150 Yemen 0.492
151 Zimbabwe 0.491
152 Kenya 0.491
153 Mauritania 0.486
154 Haiti 0.482
155 The Gambia 0.479
156 Senegal 0.460
157 Eritrea 0.454
158 Rwanda 0.450
159 Nigeria 0.448
160 Guinea 0.445
161 Angola 0.439
162 Tanzania 0.430
Rank Country HDI
163 Benin 0.428
164 Côte d’Ivoire[5] 0.421
165 Zambia 0.407
166 Malawi 0.400
167 Democratic Republic of the Congo[6] 0.391
168 Mozambique 0.390
169 Burundi 0.384
170 Ethiopia 0.371
171 Chad 0.368
172 Central African Republic 0.353
173 Guinea-Bissau 0.349
174 Burkina Faso 0.342
175 Mali 0.338
176 Sierra Leone 0.335
177 Niger 0.311
[edit] Not ranked
MiG-23MLDThe fact that so many Mexicans have to go to the U.S. to earn their daily bread and send most of it back home to their families suggests that the Mexican government has failed it’s prime responsibility. Money spent on Flankers they don’t even need will simply deprive Mexican poor (not the middle class) of needed services. Perhaps the government wants them to deal with the rebels in the south.
Sauron
Poverty in mexico is not as you are claiming, first if you look at the UN classification, Mexico is a middle income country, in fact Mexico has a life expentancy of 74 years for women and 70 for men.
When you see why mexico is poor you have to Understand part of the problem is generated by the US and Canadian firms who are unwilling to pay decent salaries in their own country and even more in Mexico, that is hypocritica when you claim mexican are immigrating to the US and Canada without seeing the same Canadian and American firms are unwilling to pay descent salaries to their Mexican workers when they operate in Mexico.
Mexico has many problems but mostly are product of bad domestic policies and lack of cooperation of the US and Canada.
The mexican immigration problem also is genrated by the US and Canada and share a great part of the resposability as the Mexican people and the Mexican government do.
If Mexico buys Su-27s it is in their right to purchase what ever weapon they please specially when those weapons are not threating any of their neighbours, because frankly the USAF won`t have any problem dealing with 10 Su-27 even the Canadian air force with more than hundred F-18s and F-35s they will likeley operate.
The Su-27s as the Bombardeir aircraft that will be built in mexico from 2010 are examples of the Mexican desire to adquire a more advanced technological base and contrary to what you think Bombardier declared that the mexican workers are so good that they are pleased with their work so much they will accelerate the building of Bombardier jets in the airport of queretaro Mexico
So probably you problem with Mexicans is not they are poor but they work hard so hard they are taking some Jobs the Canadians have, the solution is not isolation but a real framework for cooperation between nations in NAFTA.
MiG-23MLDI was not debating why Mexico is purchasing Russian Equipment? My point for the mission at hand a patrol aircraft would be better! Also, the Su-27 Flankers are going to be operated by the Mexican Navy? Why not give the Flankers to the Air Force? As for capability why not go with the Gripen which offers much and is easyer to maintain and operate…………..personally I love the venerable Flanker yet I don’t see it as a good fit for the Mexican Armed Services………………just my 2 cents!:rolleyes:
The Mexican navy has plenty of patrol aircraft but lacks any fast interceptor, the Su-27s have a range that surpasses the Gripen and they Mexican navy is not thinking into buying large numbers of aircraft so the Su-27 makes more sense.
Also the Mexican navy is independent of the Mexican air force in fact the Mexican air force has a fleet of ERJ-145s as AEW aircraft while the navy has ex-Israeli E-2, the Mexican air force already have F-5s but the Navy only patrol aircraft and utility aircraft.
Further more, the Mexican navy has been aproached by the Russians several times because the mexican navy has weapons programs and Antonov and Mil offered the production of the An-140 and the Mi-17 in Mexico, the Mexican Navy has already built a few kit Helicopters and aircraft in the past and since the early 1920s the Navy has has more willingness to built their own equipment.
The Mexican navy even have few helicarriers built in Mexico and they are designing a Surface to surface missile.
MiG-23MLDI still don’t get it? Wouldn’t a patrol aircraft be much more effective than a large fighter with only two eye balls! 😮
The question is easy, why the US needs F-22? well because they need it, Mexico needs the Su-27s as a step of modernization, perhaps is difficult to understand this but despite the US has great influence in Mexico city, the disappointment with NAFTA over the migratory issue and the continuous poverty relfected in Mexico has lead some military leaders in Mexico to buy Russian.
The reason i say this is because there is a little mistrust in what respect military things between Mexico and the US specially with a History of invasions
The Russians offer what the US does not, good price and up to a degree good aircraft, the US is unwilling even to sell some second hand F-14s or F-15s, also the Mexican military budget is limited.
Why need Mexico Su-27? easy to stay at least in the very least operating a relatively new aircraft instead of old ones with more advanced technology and at a relatively good price.
See that Mexicos more advanced aircraft are few F-5s quit old and even not even long time ago even T-33.
But undoutedly that force of E-2, ERJ-145 and Su-27s is only enought for display and have almost no military use against a power like the US, they are mostly good to fight drug dealers and their fast jets
MiG-23MLDYou bring up some good points. Yet, predicting so far into the future can be tricky……………….That said, it will be interesting to see the future of South America over the next few decades!
I am not predicting but just sumarizing you what are the main goals of the South American governments and what are they claiming as their goals.
In fact only Mexico and Central America are consider the only latin american nations who favour an FTAA with the US, for many analists Brazil and the Mercosur and Mexico and NAFTA reflect two different directions in latin america, one is more consiliatory with the economic interests of the US and the other seeks more independece from Washington.
Will South AMerica achieve indendence under Brazilian leadership well yes and not because South American`s problem are also social and cultural and we live in a globalized world but definitively you will see South america much more independent to the degree Brazil and Argentina will be more important than Washington or Brussells
MiG-23MLDMiG-23MLD: That is an old document. Last I heard was that they were buying 8 Single seaters and 4 Dual seaters for a total of 12 planes. I’ll get this confirmed by my friend in Mexico 😉
That’s a misnoma mate, what they mean is that these planes will be able to buzz around in the sky with the E-2C’s and R-99A looking for any trouble.
The official word of this is that the model they have chosen will be equiped to the same standard as those currently in the Vietnamese service:
It is not old it is from 30 november 2006
MiG-23MLDNo, I am not worried about a hypothetical attack from Argentina on the Falklands. She just doesn’t have the resources now or in the forseeable future………………..:rolleyes:
Argentina no but Mercosur is integrating South America under Brazilian leadership and there is where the real strength of it lies, Brazil and Argentina are developing weapons as Germany and France do and Brazil sooner or later is redirecting all the Venezuelan oil to their strategic interests, the strength of South America is integration under the Mercosur even Chavez real strength is that, not the Su-30s and Brazil sooner or later will become a power to reckon with, economically and technologically, the independence of South America is granted in fact this will weaken the US position in Latin America more than the Soviet Union in the 1960s or the Su-30s bought by Chavez.
The Multipolar world is reflected in Mercosur and China or Russia courting Brazil and Mercosur see the Brazilians are developing technology with China, Russia, South Africa, Argentina and their space program is lumping other smaller south american space programs.
MiG-23MLDWell, in the short term the RAF will have Typhoons and as of this moment Argentina has no Flankers…………….
I think you are worry about something purely hypothetical. at this moment Argentina is not doing any thing to re invade the Falklands niether is going in that direction.
At the long run is still a probability, but that to happen you need south america integrated with nukes and their own jet fighter planes and even in that situation i feel they won`t invade the Falklands, Hong Kong was different but the Falklands seem they will remain british for a while.
In fact in South America the only power to watch is Brazil, because Brazil aspires to become a technological power and as such is integrating South America under the Mercosur, the Venezuelan Flankers only represent that the US is loosing customers and some nations have more assertive and nationalist agendas, however in reality South America can not beat the USAF niether the US, the only power they have now is the fact that if all condem an invasion to any nation of Mercosur the US loses credibility internationaly and looks bad.
MiG-23MLDWhat’s the word on Mexico getting Flankers? Also, after Mexico and Venezuela are they any other likely South American Countries looking at the venerable and powerful Russian Fighter!:rolleyes:
This document by the mexican navy claims six Su-27s are on their purchase list http://www.semar.gob.mx/informes/rendicion_de_cuentas_06/3ra-Etapa.pdf
The Mexican navy has selected Sukhoi’s Su-27 over the Saab/BAE Systems Gripen to equip its first air defence unit.
Head of the service Adm Armando Sánchez Moreno says the new fleet of 10 fighters will enable the navy to carry out “strategic surveillance” over key areas of Mexico’s coastline.
Preliminary selection work was initiated in early 2005, and the navy is now entering into contract negotiations with Russia’s Rosboronexport agency for the purchase of eight single-seat Su-27s and two Su-27UB two-seat trainers. Local sources indicate that the entire package – which also includes spare parts, tools and personnel training – is worth slightly over $410 million.
MiG-23MLDBombardier accelerates plans for Mexico
OCTOBER/15/2006
Queretaro, Qro, Mexico- Bombardier Aerospace modified its initial plans from Mexico and is now expecting to build the first airplane in Mexico in 2009 instead of 2012 as planned. Flavio Diaz Miron, Chief Representative for Bombardier Mexico said in an interview with EL FINANCIERO Bajio that in the provisional plant that this Canadian Company is operating in El Marques Industrial Park 塗arnesses manufacture has started and we even shipped the first pieces to Canada・ Training for the 200 people working at the plant has been successful 殿nd seeing how fast they learn how to work, Bombardier decided to schedule investments for earlier dates・ He said that they are even manufacturing fuselages which were expected to be assembled by the end of 2006. The first fuselage will be exported within three months. 鄭ll of this is a story of success, which we need not sell abroad because they are realizing about Mexicans capacity and commitment to their work, in addition to the support provided by the State Government to make of this place a very competitive one・ he said. He reminded that another Bombardier plant is being built in Colon Municipality, close to Queretaro International Airport. He further said that Bombardier Aerospace has been operating in a provisional plant for 8 months now 殿nd we already produced between 15 and 70 harnesses ready to be assembled in an airplane as a final product・ Mr. Diaz said that Universidad Tecnologica de Queretaro (UTEQ) was the institution in charge of training the 200 people currently working at the plant. He also said that as a consequence of moving forward harness and fuselage assembly processes, there are also plans to assemble an aircraft in full at an earlier date. The project could be moved forward to 2009, 澱ecause the surprise is that we are making now things that were expected to be made by the end of the year, and if we keep on like this, we can assemble airplanes earlier than planned・ Regarding suppliers, he said that Bombardier is enforcing a program together with the Ministry of the Economy and the Ministry of Sustainable Development so that 25% of supplies are from local origin, and in the future, when aircraft are being assembled, a larger volume is achieved. To this purpose, the example of the automotive industry must be followed. The automotive industry has 妬ntegration processes・and has up to 70% of domestic suppliers, 殿nd that would be Bombardier痴 aspiration・ He further said that they are currently working with 50 domestic suppliers, from all over the Mexican Republic, mainly the Northeast, Center-North, and Queretaro itself. Source: El Financiero
sourcehttp://www.maquilaportal.com/cgi-bin/public/hist/nav44.pl
MiG-23MLDThe F 35 is still not a done deal mate!
The sovereignty issue is still rumbling on….
True but the question is Venezuela has no right to tell the British what weapon they should buy or who they must have as their leader, that is the biggest mistake of the US and Britain, each democracy has to be wanted has to be desire and protected by the people of each nation in fact i can ask you
Mexico bought Su-27s like Venezuela and they have two presidents one elected by the Government as the official winner of the Mexican presidential elections and another self elected who claims there was a fraud against his party and who has a great support by the Mexican people why the West do not complaign about Mexico`s Calderon? reason simple Calderon is an US ally and Chavez is not.
Calderon is willing to sell Mexican oil cheap to the US while Chavez is only willing to sell cheap oil to Brazil and Argetina and in general to latin america, Calderon is willing to support the Free trade agrement of the Americas as the US wants while Lula Kichner and Chavez are not willing to sign it as that
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