All that typing (plus yet another irrelevant photo), and still no answer to my question. SOC, it appears you were right — this has been a waste of time. I’m done here.
cool Meat, no problem, but you are also inflexible when i asked you an implicit question why you have two different accounts even when you have same events even a kill? you simply are considering the Russians lie even before considering the MiG-25 and AA-6 Acrid can kill an F-15 so as long as you do not ask the most important question that is: are the Western accounts politically make up and bias towards their own side you won`t understand my answer.
No, you did not answer the question, you redirected the conversation, which seems to happen quite often.
I’m not denying that it is within the realm of possibility that a MiG-25 could shoot down an F-15.
Let’s try my question to you one more time:
You claim that a Syrian MiG-25 shot down an Israeli F-15, and that Western sources are just denying it. My question was, if Western sources have admitted that a MiG-25 shot down an F/A-18, then why would they deny that one shot down an F-15?
If you have a (direct) answer for that, I’d love to hear it. But I suspect you don’t have one.
The truth is, Western sources don’t acknowledge this Russian claim simply because there is ZERO evidence to support it.
man the answer is very easy i will give it, you know perfectly the US according to western sources lost almost the same number aircraft Iraq lost in 1991, the Iraqis sources gave a higher number but of course the West never accepts that, the US only accepts one air to air kill, the Russian sources claim there were more aircraft shot down in air to air combat in 1991 and the Iraqi claimed more kills, The US only admits the account that it is more politically convinient for its public image as Saddam Hussein`s regime also did
You can believe what ever is more of your taste but endoutedly each warring side accepts what they want to admitt in part due to what they think their enemy can prove remember the US had pilots POW shown on Iraqi TV and in CNN.
So obviously the Iraqis had good pilots and air defences beside many times many kills they do not really know what happened to them but they automatically many claim that Iraqi SAMs were to blame and was the cause that killed them
Nice pictures, but would you mind answering my question, please?
i did answer you question, what happens is you want to hear that the US always tells the truth.
In example the Iraqi and Russian claim a MiG-29 shot down a British Tornado in 1991 over Iraq so as you can see the accounts do not match in many aspects see that and you will see i have answered your question.
You also do not want to see the factors relating a MiG-25 and F-15 advantages.
The MiG-25 has less radar detection range and worst look down soot down capability, however the MiG-25 is faster and has faster missiles and the AIM-7 and AA-6 Acrid have the same range.
If you use logic the Israeli tactic was excellent they surprised the MiG-25 because the MiG-25 could not detect the F-15 due to the limited look down capability its radar had.
Now if you give some credibility to the Russians you will see that the MiG-25 once it has detected the F-15 its AA-6 are faster than the AIM-7 and it flies faster than the F-15 so it has good chances at BVR if it fires the AA-6 because its superior speed and the faster missiles allows it a fast dash attack, is it probable the MiG-25 did shoot down the F-15? well undoutedly yes it is.
That the “Russian” admit something, what was never denied before does not bolster their counter claim. When you speak about lying in general you ignore the details related to that. Lying and related details do not fit in general and you can be shure, that I am looking into all available details in general.
By the way it is Jordan, what monitored all of Israel nearly through two surveilance stations in optimum position for that. By the way long before the peace treaty. Some try to forget, that Israel is very small and one of the most dense populated areas. The Arabs there will report every aircraft there coming down at all. Well known by the Israels at all and so none tried to hide losses. If the exchange ratio is 1:4 or 1:5 in their favour did not matter. It will not even rise the deterrence from that, because the opponent in question (Syria) knows the true ratio firsthand!!!!
Lying about that and caught about that by the Syrians will undermine the credibility of Israel very fast. Neither Egypt nor Syria bolstered their rhetoric claims by data from wreckage inside their terretory and both know why!!!!!!
Sens lets go by parts, why i do not believe the Israeli account sometimes? well first i have to see how probable is a MiG-25 can kill and F-15 and viceversa? both aircraft were armed with BVR missiles, however the F-15 won`t dogfight with the MiG-25 because no MiG-25 pilot will dogfight with an F-15 becasue the Mig-25 is no dogfighter so it can not dogfight, so he or she will avoid dogfights as long as he or she can, so all the encounter will be BVR combat.
In GWI Iraqi MiG-25s were able to dodge F-15s, see that those were more advanced and better armed than the Israeli F-15s of 1981, latest versions of AA-6 have a range of 72km and were already available in 1980, the MiG-25 has a time flight endurance of 2hrs at low speed and can keep a few minutes at Mach 2.35, i do not know the F-15 how long it will fly at Mach 2.35 but i doubt it is long, the MiG-25s has also an IRST and medium range IR AAMs so in that sense has an advantage the F-15 has not, the Russian account mentions the look down shoot down capability the MiG-25 has is deficient and that was one of the reason one was shot down.
In general we can see the MiG-25 is slightly inferior in radar detection range only but has an slight advantage in speed even armed with four AA-6s, this balance a bit the things for the MiG-25
So i think both aircraft are more less matched in BVR combat so i do not think the MiG-25 can not shot down an F-15 therefore i do not consider the Russian claims impossible.
Primary Function: Air-to-air missile
Contractor: Naval Weapons Center
Power Plant: Hercules and Bermite Mk 36 Mod 71, 8 solid-propellant rocket motor
Length: see table below
Launch Weight: see table below
Diameter: 8 inches (203 mm)
Wingspan: see table below
Range: see table below
Speed: see table below
Guidance System: Solid-state, infrared homing system
Warhead: Blast fragmentation, see table below
Unit Cost: $125,000
Sparrow Length (mm) Wingspan (mm) Control fin span (mm) Launch Weight (kg) Speed (mach) Range (km) Warhead (kg) Production Run
AIM-7A 3740 940 880 65 2.5 10 20 2,000
AIM-7C 3660 1020 810 78 4 11 30 2,000
AIM-7D 3660 1020 810 78 4 11 30 7,500
AIM-7E 3660 1020 810 89.5 4 30 30 25,000
AIM-7F 3660 1020 810 105 4 70 39 15,000+
AIM-7H 3660 1020 810 89.5 4 30 30 2,000+
AIM-7M 3660 1020 810 105 4 30 40 5,000+
AIM-7P 3660 1020 810 105 4 30 40 ?
The Sparrow Family
source http://www.f-16.net/f-16_armament_article10.html
The AA-6 Acrid has the same range the AIM-7 has and is faster than the AIM-7 Sparrow, therefore i conclude the F-15 and MiG-25 are matched
Western sources confirmed that a MiG-25 shot down an F/A-18 in 1991. Why, then, would they not confirm an F-15 being shot down? If there is evidence to support it, that is.
What i am saying Meat is undoutedly sometimes Russian and American sources admit losses but also they have different accounts, of course you might think Russian sources are les credible, to tell you the truth i think you can not have the idea always only one side tells the thuth, personaly i believe kills are very difficult to prove except when you have video footage or several pictures of a kill beyond that wreckages prove you kills but many times these can be called accidents so i feel the Israeli account has proven some facts but up to now i think both sides more less have shown me pictures proving losses they inflicted on their rivals
This picture for example can be a kill of an enemy of an enemy helicopter or a missile test with a drone what do you think? well the same is the tactics used in propaganda either by western sources or Russian and the MiG-25 is similar.
Man why are you thinking Russia only sells oil, that is quit false, Russia has areas where still is doing well and aerospace is one and it that where China is still far behind Russia , Russia is buiding Tu-204s, Engines for China, Su-33s, and many more equipment, you are over valorating China`s success, Russia is becoming a more complex country than you think, computers and software are also areas where russia is becoming better and you can see that in the avionics the Su-34 has here is a picture of the Su-34
here ais the cockpit of the Tu-204
here is the Tu-334 cockpit
here is the cockpit of the Yak-42
as you can see Russia is not behind the west, Russia is just restructuring its technological and economical capabilities but undoutedly Russia is not a developing country they have technology and resources
Mig I’m not quite interested in the reply to that guy who keeps talking nonsense, but can’t help it but noticing the pictures that you are posting in every topic, like the ones above, just where do you get them from? I really like all the pictures you post, some that I can’t seem to find anywhere else.
Is there any chance you can forward me some links?
Thanks[/QUOTE]
If you want really good pictures about Russian aircraft you have to go to Russian forums i recomend you this ones
http://www.aviaforum.ru/
http://www.strizhi.ru/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl http://forum.airforce.ru/viewforum.php?f=11
also i recomend you search with cyrillic letters rather than with latin ones such as МиГ-25ПД, Ту-204, Ан-124-150 and so on
as you can see Russia is not behind the west, Russia is just restructuring its technological and economical capabilities but undoutedly Russia is not a developing country they have technology and resourcessee, that is why you lie again. you use same thing over and over. I keep telling you FC-1 example is example that is in production and reach Pakistan soon.
the example you use is not same.
Su-34, who use it? no one yet. Russia say many time they will buy, but it is not produce yet.
Yak-42 is a failure in export. no one want it, only Cuba and ex Yugoslavia. and picture you use is sneaky. Yak-42 cockpit is like this.
the one you use is experiment with new things. Russia do many of that kind on many airplane, but it do not mean they will use. it dont even mean it work!please do not use same example over again. I can use YF-23 from America, but it do not mean America will use it.
you words do not have proofs. I show you proofs
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/rs.html#Econ
you can see it say
“oil, natural gas, metals, and timber account for more than 80% of exports, leaving the country vulnerable to swings in world prices.”
that mean Russia rely on raw resource, not manufacturing stuff or finance like real econ
First you are not correct, in aviation Russia builds Su-34s, Mi-28N, and Yak-130 for the Russian air force, Russia is building for Russian carriers Tu-204s and Tu-334 and the An-124 has started manufacturing status.
Talking about the economy let`s see this fact, while you talk too much about Chinese prowess why you do not talk about the Chinese poors? about the 50% of the Chinese export products sold being non designed chinese products but big foreign corporations products that are paying so little to the chinese workers.
Also still Russia has a better standard of living and a higher per capita income.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3736696.stm
There you have a Tu-204 from DALAVIA see Russia is building their own aircraft for domestic comsuption
In fact if you want to see what the Russians are flying check this webpage and by the way China bought Tu-204shttp://www.aviaforum.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=7982&d=1157727385
OTE=flex297].so everyone have to have english same level like you? that do not make sense, you are not teacher.
you cannot take Su-35 because it never even go into air force of Russia, it is just like blue angels now. you can take it but it will get shot down fast.
and yes I can use that Sukhoi because it is the one everyone but MKI is using. the FC1 cockpit is cockpit that Pakistan will get next year, so no difference. You do not see Su-35 going to enter service of any air force even in 5 years! by 10 year it become old news when JSF and F-22 become big. China will have J-12 prototype already.
also people keep saying Russian economy bounce back.. it is not the same.
Russia economy go down with Gorbashop, then go down with Yaltsin even worse for 10 year then only go back up in 2000 because of oil, that is all! just oil. Russian economy rely on oil and raw resouce, banking and finance stuff is too risky and will not develop there. It cannot compete with China. China from 1980 only growing and never stop growing, it never drop below 9% GDP grow. it have almost 30 years of growing when Russia only have 6-7 year, but China growing is more diversify and do not rely only on oil and resource. there is many manufacturing and technology too. and yes Chinese cars cannot be compare to other minor car from emerging market, any one can make car, but Chinese cars is one of largest car producer in world with Geely, Chery, etc. You do not see Russia go far with Lada, it is like old decade. Chinese car still have some improvement, it is not best in quality like Swedesh Vulva or Japanese Lexus but is getting there fast!also you guys is also hippocrit, first you say China get J-10 from Israel now you say Russia, it seem the only thing you want to do is put China down because you cannot accept reality. you have to realize the reality. China is only partnering with Russia because of US, but in the end, Russia is still Russia, they make war with China when they have Imperial King, and they still make war with China when they become Cummonist, all on old Chinese land too! sometime things do not change.
[/QUOTE]
Man why are you thinking Russia only sells oil, that is quit false, Russia has areas where still is doing well and aerospace is one and it that where China is still far behind Russia , Russia is buiding Tu-204s, Engines for China, Su-33s, and many more equipment, you are over valorating China`s success, Russia is becoming a more complex country than you think, computers and software are also areas where russia is becoming better and you can see that in the avionics the Su-34 has here is a picture of the Su-34
here ais the cockpit of the Tu-204
here is the Tu-334 cockpit
here is the cockpit of the Yak-42
as you can see Russia is not behind the west, Russia is just restructuring its technological and economical capabilities but undoutedly Russia is not a developing country they have technology and resources
Here you run into real trouble with your claim about 50-50 probability.
Israel is just too small and monitored by its neighbours constantly to hide such incident. If one is lost you will find the remains or it landed back some way, like the badly damaged F-15 at Ramat David AB in 1982. No chance for your claim in that case.
Man please i feel you still can not get it, hiding a kill is common. second Israel like any other nation on earth is composed by humans and humans have defects, humans lie too, and if you do not believe that you are against Israel`s history, because Israel admitted many time their mistakes because they are humans and admit many Israelies have not been good people if you think all Israelies never lie you are in a dream world. in a nation there is many kind of poeple some lie some do not lie, however politicians usually lie.
Hiding the kill is human nature, i said the evidence is null both in the Israeli case or Syrian case both sides do not present you pictures, we believe them only because in one element of the account we see they agree and that is in the fact two MiG-25s were shot down.
beyond that we have disagreement we have 100% agreement in the fact two MiG-25s were shot down
here we have what the Russian usually admit
Дата 13.02.1981 Страна-эксплуатант Сирия
Место Ливан
Время 13.28
Самолет(ы) МиГ-25ПД
Эксплуатант ВВС Сирии
Летчик(и)
Обстоятельства Пpи подходе МиГ-25 израильский F-15, пpикpытый облаком дипольных отpажателей, вышел из засады с набоpом высоты. Hаходясь в нижней полyсфеpе, он остался невидим для пилота МиГ-25; слyжбы наведения пpедyпpедить летчика не смогли из-за активного глyшения pадиоканалов yпpавления пpотивником. На встречном сближении в наборе F-15 с дистанции 25 км произвел пуск ракеты и сбил МиГ-25.
Исход
Причины AIM-7F «Sparrow» попала в левyю плоскость МиГ-25
Дата 29.07.1981
Страна-эксплуатант Сирия
Место Ливан
Время
Самолет(ы) МиГ-25ПД
Эксплуатант ВВС Сирии
Летчик(и)
Обстоятельства Паpа израильских F-15, pазомкнyвшись по высоте, начала пpеследование сиpийских МиГ-21. Hа пеpехват «Иглов» вышли два МиГ-25ПД, пpичем один из МиГов пpоводил атакy на встpечном кypсе, а втоpой – с фланга. Пилот пеpвого пеpехватчика, из-за сpыва автоматического сопpовождения, не смог пpоизвести пyск pакет и был сбит УР «Спэppоy», выпyщенной ведyщим паpы F-15.
source http://airbase.ru/crashes/mig25/
If you see the Russians do not deny two Syrians MiG-25 were shot down over Lebanon in 1981.
Israel has counter claims but you are saying their neighbours would had reported that but at the same time you deny the report so what you are saying is contradictory.
That F-15 kill undoutedly is not confirm by western sources that usually never consider truthful Russian claims.
In the terms of verifiability many people here says if the West does not admit it it is not truth but here we have to see in this case we have no pictures but only words by both sides
The Russians can claim it all they want, but every reputable source verifies the fact that no F-15 has ever been lost air-to-air.
Meat
Verifyable means proven and by proven means pictures, i can tell you there are pictures of MiG-25 war wreckages but all the pictures i have seen are MiG-25s destroyed on the ground.
i will give you an example in 2003 an F-18 was shot down in Iraq, i have seen pictures of the aircraft wreckage, the US admitts they lost an F-18, but even if you have a picture you have a different account.
The Western official version was a Patriot destroyed the F-18 or in few words it was fraticide when a F-18 was struck by a Patriot when it was on its way to shot down a Missile.
The Iraqi version at the time and that i have read in Russian webpages claims it was not a US missile but an Iraqi SAM that destroyed the F-18. here is the russian version http://www.newsru.com/world/03apr2003/friendly.html here is the Western version http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/04/04/wjet04.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/04/04/ixnewstop.html
If you stop a little to think you will see that many Western kills are called fraticide with this i can not tell you with version is the correct one because both basicly tell you two versions that have almost the same of level of likeliness.
Now returning to the Russian claims, the Israeli kills of MiG-25s have not picture i mean i have never seen such picture beyond a claim, the Russian sources books and webpages confirm the event that claims two MiG-25 killed by Israeli F-15s , they say two MiG-25s were shot down by Israeli F-15s but also there is not a picture of the event, we can say well both accounts confirm two MiG-25 kills because both Russian and Israeli sources confirm it.
The likelihood that the Israeli F-15 was shot down is not low niether is high is 50-50 probably only a claim but still not unlikely to have even had happened many times accidents are called kills and viceversa kills are called accidents
On February 13, at 13:16 a pair of Israeli RF-4C reconnaissance planes crossed the Lebanese boarder at altitude of 13 000 meters and proceeded northwards along the line of intercepting with the speed of 1000 km/h. By the CCP command a single MiG-25 was directed to intercept the invaders. At 13:25 it accelerated being at flight level of 8 000 meters, and then climbed to level its altitude with that of the target. At the distance of 110km the target turned back leaving a dense cloud of deflectors, which jammed the acquisition radar. MiG-25 continued pursuing recon planes which retreated southwards. In a minute another target appeared out of the cloud of deflectors. It was an Israeli F-15, which was hiding in an ambush behind the high mountain ridge before that. At 13:27 the distance between F-15 and MiG-25 reduced to 50km. The Syrian pilot couldn’t spot the enemy approaching him frontally from below because of the limited capability of the radar to detect targets against the earth background. Operator’s command to turn wasn’t heard either because of sudden noise jamming. At 13:28 F-15 launched a missile from the distance of 25km while ascending and destroyed Mig-25. The plane had fallen down in Lebanon. When its debris was found its left wing had a large hole in it, and close to it the missile fragments were found , bearing a readable sign: “AIM-7F”. That was the very first case of a missile encounter combat in the history of war in the air.
Source http://www.aviation-time.kiev.ua/eng/article.php?IDA=34
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