No MiG-25RB ever shot anything down, did it? A reconaissance airplane used as a bomber in some cases that didn’t carry AAM’s and had no gun……how could it shoot something down?

The MiG-25 had different versions and each one was optimised to different missions, however some Azeri MiG-25PDs used R-60s AAM to kill tanks

А вот к утверждениям о том, что перехватчики МиГ-25ПД лихо крошили армянские танки тепловыми ракетами Р-60 класса “воздух-воздух”,

http://www.airwar.ru/history/locwar/xussr/karabah/karabah.html

You do claims, which I never did. For the benefit of the other I will not even try to figure out the behaviors of that. 😀
The website in question is no official one. It is as reliable as ACIG for example.
Its purpose is to show the Russian view about the own military assets at first.
There is nothing wrong about that in general. But some claims are limited or questional, because some important details are missing.
I remember well, that in the former GDR a lot publications did become available about the MiG-23. The main purpose were to restore the damaged reputation of the MiG-23 in Lebanon. Just one Wing, the JG-9 did convert to MiG-23. From 1978 – 12 MF and from 1984 – 32 ML. The GDR postphoned further buys of the MiG-23 and did decide to wait for the MiG-29 to replace the MiG-21s. When all military did highlight the performances of the MiG-23s, their procurement number was cut. Compared to the MiG-21s it was a jump in capabilities, but at the time scale the MiG-21 was overdue for replacement at all. The 16th air army in the GDR did not field MiG-21s any longer.
Of cause the will be not a topic on a Russian website.:diablo:
Limits are set for every fighter to conserve life-time or to enhance safety limits. I do remember about the F-104G, which was temporary reduced to Mach 1,7, when the nominal limit of Mach 2 was restored. Practical that F-104G could reach Mach 2,2-2,4 related to conditions. The first J-79 had a TET, which did set the safety limit to around Mach 2,1 [750 kt IAS), when the later built J-79 were not, but the limit was kept, because there was no need of such high-speeds. The F-104G had to operate low at subsonic to transsonic speeds.
G limits do help to prevent overloads, when AoA limits are introduced to lower the possibilties of departure. None pilot has stick to the artificial limits, except he does enjoy to live on the save side and not being punished, when the G-meter was in the red-zone. 😉
Back to the 80s. The Russians had figured out, that at limited part of the flying envelope the MiG-23 pilot could make the best from his fighter. Nothing new really, because every pilot is trained to choose the right manouvre and tactic or he will be killed in short time. Similar to the F-104 the MiG-23s did hit and run tactics against fighter of higher agility, when a well flown MiG-23 could even mix it with a F-4. But with similar capable pilots on the controls and everyone try to force the opponent to mix it his best corner of envelope, the outcome will end in an disengagement. The F-4E is not outclassed by the MiG-23MLD, but the MiG-23MLD did offer a similar pilot some advantages. 😉
Something about Gs in combat.
… The third time they ( two EAF MiG-21s) entered a steep dive, 60 degrees or so, a crazy supersonic dive. I launched a missile (AIM-9B) at their leader; they flew very close to each other. As the missile exploded their leader rolled over to a split S: 60 degrees, 10,000 feet, Mach 1,4. His wingman rolled right after him and I started to roll but I realized that I wouldn’t be able to recover. It all happened over Lake Manzala. (10th July 1970) I decided that it was too dangerous so I rolled back. I could see the wingman also roll back but I could no longer see the leader. I recovered with my G meter at maximum, 10G, at 2,000 feet. I lost my generator and alternator and I had to revive the systems. Then I saw the eingman recover underneath and his leader crash. I then started a long chase after the wingman with Sharon trailing me. There were very low clouds over the Nile Delta and he flew to his home base at Mansura. I didn’t let him get into the clouds, but at a certain point … achieved a gun kill and pilot ejected. (to cut the personal report of Israel Baharav in Mirage IIIC No 59, named Shahak in Israeli service or Thunder, and still with ATAR 9B):cool:
The nominal G-limit of Mirage IIIC was 7,5 G, when the nominal G-limit of the MiG-21s were similar 7-8 G. 😉
Even in that years there was no time to do a turning contest, which one has the higher nominal G. In combat none does care about that. By the way, that Mirage No 59 had twenty years of service in Israel, before it was sold to Argentina. The same aircraft did suffer a severe take-off accident at Hatzor AB 7th October 1973, before rebuilt in 1974 with ATAR 9C.
But in the widest sense still about ‘MiGs in Combat’. :D:D:D

Sens

All aircraft have such problems, however to know how good was the F-14 in real combat we have to see some facts.

The AIM-54 was very rarely carried by the F-14 in a six AIM-54s configuration for several reasons, one it could not land back in the aircraft carrier, and if it flew a peace time mission it would had needed to drop some of the AIM-54 to make it back so no one was willing to do it since the AIM-54 was a very expensive missile.

So usually a F-14 had no chance to test a six almost simultaneous firing of AIM-54s.

Even some books claim the F-14 only once fired six AIM-54s due to weight facts in part and price in the other hand however these test were not done even in land based aircraft.

Now a fighter like the F-14 which is limited to peace operation and has manual pages saying it can not be flown beyond 6.5Gs then has to be considered it won`t be more agile than the F-4 once outflew in test demostrations.

Then we can conclude the F-14 is indeed a MiG-31 equivalent, not an agile F-16 and only had a relative advantge if it did have it, in agility over the F-4 and MiG-23 types.

For an unknown reason you do not prefer to look into that graphs seriously.
What does make such behavior worse is, that some details given are ignored by you in a constant way. 😮

For the benefit of the others the corner velocity of the F-14 is <300 kt.

Sens

I do not think you have given the max instantaneous turn rate for the F-14 which basicly gives the corner velocity and the max sustained turn rate which shows how good it is turning.

Sincerely i can show you data for the MiG but not for the F-14, Firebar showed manual pages for the F-14, you have not shown a single manual page to prove your points. No problem but the vast majority of sources are contradictory however i have read in several books that the F-14 is less agile than the F-18.

Here some dat according to this book http://books.google.com/books?id=XCcLAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA30&lpg=PA30&dq=turn+rate+F-18+sustained&source=web&ots=VBNnguILZn&sig=AeUYXrYACJ54lq1CcrQAkDn_I5E&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=10&ct=result#PPA30,M1

The F-18E has a max sustained turn rate of 18deg/s and the F-18C one of 19.2deg/s.

The F-14 has to be something in between the F-4E and the F-18C, however without precise data is dificult to determine.

It can be 16 deg/s or 17 deg/s or even 18 deg/s

The F-4E has something between 13.5 deg/s at 1000m.
http://forums.airforce.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=7569&d=1183809027
however both the MiG-23 and F-4 will pull around 6.9Gs to get those numbers and the F-14 has an overload limit of 6.5Gs

The problem is that neither of those guys have any grasp of NATOPs limits are or what they or SLE means as it relates to combat and capability. While the jet is nominally limited to 6.5G during peace time ops, there is no over-G inspection due until 7.3 G is exceeded. Further, an over-G inspection is quick and mild up to about 8G. Over this they become much more complex requiring internal inspection, engine drops etc.

Either way it isn’t material as when talking to real tomcat pilots (tomcat sunset boards for instance) where the response is the same, ‘win the fight then let the MX guys fix ’em up’. Finally G limits are but one small part of the overall maneuverability equation and for that matter the overall A-A capability. Looking at G-limits is a very simplistic view point IMO.

BDF

The real operational overload factor given for the F-14 was 6.5Gs however the aircraft was once puit to the max overload of 9Gs, true but operationally is another thing the jet is not a dogfighter.
All the aircraft have such limits, in fact you can see it in the MiG-23ML its max speed is Mach 2.6 in the stratosphere at full afterburner armed with two R-24s and with its wing swept at an angle of 72 degrees.

However the MiG-23ML has also operational limits and it will not pass Mach 2.3 on the daily basis.

The MiG-23ML can be forced to fly at 11Gs or 9Gs too, but operationally it won`t be flown in that way

see by your self