Oh what an idiot go ask any aircraft engineer. Go study the concept of airframes, stress lines, engine mounts. Go study the concept of aerodynamics through intake tunnels. Maybe you will know why the airflow intake tunnel designed for a 12,500kg thrust engine isn’t going to work for a 6600kg thrust engine.
hehehehee In fact i have read but there is not reason an inlet can not be modified or a general lay out changed.
And you’ve spoken to engineers who’ve worked on this, who decided to break whatever NDA they signed?
I own this bridge…
No i did not work on the program but i read SIBNIA statements who did work on the program and who states more realities than any of our opinions
Sorry Flogger, strevitel, MiG-23MLD or whatever You may call Yourself; I have enough of You.
May I just return to that …. ???
Who are You ??? Are You the real godfather of aerospace technology, aerodynamics, structures, powerplant engineering and maybe the grandfather of Mikoyan as You always show by You most preferred names ???
Honestly I doubt that You even have the least meaning of discussion, argumentation or logic, I would even go that far to ask how old are You and what kind of education You received in Your life so far.
I know, Your answer now will be similar to the last posts that I will once see my mistakes when time will tell the complete J-10 history and we all here will hail and cheer to You, as You were the only one who has seen the whole truth and the complete story behind the J-10’s history since years. Maybe You are that mysterious designer and chief engineer of the J-10 and only because Your design for that fighter failed You went to Russia to plea for help. But sadly we are all blinded by our arrogance or pride (…sorry not sure about the original quote, but I think it was similar nonsense You wrote the last time !).
As a teacher for Chemistry I learned never to give up hope even in the worst cases of stupidity and nonsense besides my pupils … maybe someday they will understand their illogic argumentation !
But with You I think I have to resign !As such this will be definitely my last reply to any of Your posts regardless of what You wrote.
With best wishes for Your future at Mikoyan OKB + have a nice weekend,
Deino 🙁
Deino
If the boot fits you are the one that wore it, the Russian article sounds plausible, but you are so childish, even swearing you won`t talk to me again, it is so funny, that when almost every body just do conjectures and base their logical argumentations on personal opinions you can feel offended, reply me and say to me like a kinder garden boy you won`t talk to me hehehe please man read i say that is just a russian article i like it because of the MiG-23 program i know they fitted to the MiG-23 so many engines that a single early J-10 fitted with an WP-13 won`t be an impossibility and that the J-10 general design arragment could have been modified later on.
However here every body answers me with personal opinions based upon a wounded ego and not upon intelligence and logic and the proof is you are like a kid, a grown man only ends up saying man Let`s wait a little time more, and we will know the truth i respect your opinion time will tell and let`s be in peace with each other beccause here everybody uses personal conjectures as proven Historiacal facts and even some start insulting due to fustration.
A smart man is the one that respects and a good Historian proves not with conjectures but with archive documents or statemenst released by the original source that are well known by the Media.
We are all here just throwing conjectures and thinking they are facts.
Equally stupid, since you already made it a point that the Russians could assist on this (Lyulka, SIBNIA). Given the circumstances, I doubt that Lyulka and SIBNIA would suggest putting the WP-13 on the J-10 either.
Crobato have many aircraft progams have you managed? i guess you must be a great designer as Artem Mikoyan, i wonder the MiG-23PD and latest MiG-23 powered by Al-31 are not true.
Crobato did SIBNIA work in the J-10 from the begining? from 1988 onwards, your doubts have to be true because you are Artem Mikoyan junior 😀 godfatehr of Lyulka who knows everything about aircraft structural design you are a PHD in aircraft manufacturing.
Crobato honestly relax the evidences shows re engining is not as complex as you put it.
Hehehe We have all the experts, all engineers and designers, i wonder Why SIBNIA says the J-10 is more less a Lavi variant? i wonder why SIBNIA say they helped the J-10 program :rolleyes:
Flogger
I dont think anyone is denying that what u r proposing or what u have read is in theory impossible. However, we are more concerned about its practicalities. From what i know (though i haven’t checked the dimensions) the difference between Al-31 and WP-13 should be quite big, which would mean extensive remodifications of either the J-10 or Al-31 or both to convert the former from WP-13 to Al-31. I skimmed through some of the above posts, and (please correct me if im wrong) PLAAF started receiving SU-27 sometime after 1992, while J-10/WP-13 made its flight in 1995 (???). The question is what were chinese trying to achieve by putting WP-13 in an air superiority fighter. Just take a look at the TWR for such a fighter. Chinese had already signed a contract for SU-27. So why couldn’t they simply use a more suitable engine?
Buying the Su-27 does not mean inmediately know the technical features and been right away able to fit the Al-31 engine, the Chinese asked Russian help in aerodynamics and propulsion systems for such reasons.
If Russia was not on board they would need continue their program until either the WS-10 was ready or they would had some Russian assistance.
The MiG-23PD has the R-27-300 however the Russians could very easily retrofit new engines such as the R-35 or Al-31.
Despite what has been many times proposed by many forum members China has now been able to copy engines as easily as the would, the got the R-27F2M-300 powering the MiG-23MS from Egypt but they were unable of copying it.
retrofit a Al-31 to the J-10 also would have not been easy for a nation like China that was learning fast but lacked knowledge at the time, it is not like i have Al-31 and i can fit them right away to any aircraft, it does not work like that, you have to modify the aircraft and know how to modify it, it requieres knowledge and it is obvious China lacked that knowledged because they needed Russian Help and colaboration
Mass flow rate of AL-31F = 110kg/sec
Mass flow rate of R-29B = 104kg/sec
Mass flow rate of WP-13 = 63.5kg/secSee the problem?
The AL-31F needs very slightly more air than the R-29B, but its still in the same ballpark. The WP-13 needs barely more than HALF the air of the AL-31F.
No i do not see any problem, modifications are to adopt solutions to problems, engineers have ingenuity, they solve problems.
Oh please bay STOP that nonsense !!!
1. Yes, You are right the original MiG-23PDP / MiG-23 prototype 23-01 used a R-23 but if You look closely its a “very” different machine to the serial MiG-23 Flogger-B or even latest serial versions.
2. There is actually no Indian MiG-27 flying with a AL-31F and if that ever will happen … we will see !
3. just to sum up: Yes many different aircraft were modified and re-engined from prototype to production version but only because it is possible it doesn’t mean the J-10 was the same. The main question still is: is it technological possible ??? … and then for what expense ??
I still don’t understand why only You insist in this theory; no-one else here denies that there was assistance from Russia und/or Israel but not the way You like it.
I think You like the “if that = then that” versions:
1. If the J-10 has a similar configuration like the Lavi = it has to be a Lavi-clone.
2. If there were Israelis in China (regardless for what other project which no-one denies !) = that prooves point 1.
3. If the Russians modified some of their own projects with different engines = that has to be the same in China (regardless the differences in airframe …)
… I think I could continue that list but I don’t want any more.
So PLEASE once again; STOP that nonsense !
Deino
Deino
DEINO
The Indian MiG-27 will be upgraded, Lyulka does not go to Farborough 2006 and claims the Indian MiG-27/23s will be re-engined with Al-31 if it is not true .
SIBNIA`s own words in Farborough were the J-10 is more less a Lavi variant.
The non sense is yours when you almost claim the Russians went to farborough 2006 only to tease the Media.
The Russians always have said the J-10 is a joint Israeli-Russian and Chinese
colaboration, they said it also included technologies from other countries.
the J-10 powered by WP-13 is one of the most audacious J-10 article i have ever heard, and as the MiG-23, the J-10, could have been engined with WP-13s and later with Al-31.
We should either wait some time and stop the trying to convince each other until more information surfaces about the J-10 development History.
Regards
And you think after more than a decade without any evidence of such a WP-13 powered J-10, that there is going to be any evidence at all? After all this time, if there is going to be any evidence, it would have risen by now.
You’re really full of bull****. I have already given you all the valid technical reasons why the J-10 could never be powered by the WP-13. You cannot translate the Russian experience with the Chinese experience. Even the MiG-23 R27 engines have an output and weight similar that is similar to he AL-31F engines (something like 26000lbs of thrust vs. 27000)—which by the way, still has NOT actually flown. The power difference between the AL-31FN and the WP-13 is nearly 100%—that is 6600kg VS 12,500kg. Where is your technical reasons, eh?
SIBNIA’s alleged participation in the J-10 project is not proof that any WP-13 powered J-10 prototypes exist. As a matter of fact, the Russian article you pertain offers no new information but added speculation based on a collage of internet rumor and speculation, not to mention full of gaping errors such as not knowing accurately when the first J-10s entered service despite the Russians themselves having already mass supplied the engines prior to 2004. In other words, that “source” of yours have no claim or access even to inside Russian information that could have been involved with the J-10.
Первый полет опытного самолета “23-01” состоялся 3 апреля 1967г. (летчик-испытатель П.М. Остапенко). Истребитель, выполненный по нормальной схеме с треугольным среднерасположенным крылом и цельноповоротным дифференциально отклоняемым горизонтальным оперением, был оснащен маршевым двигателем Р-27-300 (1 * 51,0 кН/1 * 5 200 кгс, 1 * 76,5 кН / 1 * 7 800 кгс) и подъемными двигателями с надфюзеляжными воздухозаборниками. Крыло имело мощную систему сдува пограничного слоя, что, в сочетании с подъемными ТРД, обеспечивало самолету длину разбега 180-200 м и пробег с тормозным парашютом 250 м (величина, рекордная для реактивного самолета такого класса). Самолет “23-01” успешно проходил летные испытания и был эффектно продемонстрирован на авиационном празднике в Домодедово 9 июля 1967г., однако 26 мая 1967г. А.В. Федотов поднял в воздух другой опытный МиГ – изделие “23-11/1” с крылом изменяемой геометрии, который и стал прототипом серийного истребителя. Самолет “23-11/1, как и “23-01”, был оснащен ТРДФ Р-27Ф-300 (5 200 / 7 800 кгс), созданным под руководством Хачатурова и имеющим удельный расход топлива, на 25% меньший, чем ТРДФ Р-11Ф2-300, установленный на истребителе http://topgun.rin.ru/cgi-bin/units.pl?unit=2040
if you read this articles it gives the figure for the R-27-300 this engine has a max thrust of 7800kg, there is another engine named the R-27F2M-300 that engine has more power it has a yield of 10000kg
however they are saying the MiG-23PDP or otherwise known as MiG-23 prototype 23-01 are powered by R-27-300 of only 7800kg of thrust
So as you can see the MiG-23 first prototypes used a really low yields engines and modern Indian MiG-27 use Al-31. the chances a J-10 can be fitted with a WP-13 and later changed to a AL-31 are high, there are not technical inpossibilities specially if you are talking about prototypes that usually are modified; example MiG-23 or Su-27 both aircraft have different prototypes in the MiG-23 these were the 23-01 STOL-delta wing aircraft and the VG wing 23-11 and the Su-27 it had the T-10 and the T-10S
here is another link check it

When they actually sign it and when they actually fly it, then show me.
Now you’re twisting words and lying. The first Chinese Su-27s did arrive in 1992. And when did you say your alleged prototype started flying in 1995? Oh, did the Su-27 and MiG-29 prototypes ever flew Tumansky R-25 and R-27 engines, huh? Tell me why would you spend years designing a prototype around an engine that you would only use ONCE? Did the MiG-23 ever flew with R-11 engines huh?
You are what I would call out of bullets, out of evidence, and out of reason.
The MiG-23 deal is already a fact and is already signed wait some time and you will see the pictures, you are in denial just because you can not prove the MiG-23 can not accept many engines.
The J-10/WP-13 affair is niether disproven by you niether proven by me, it is just a Russian account of the J-10, i trust it you do not but you have no proven it was not equipped with a WP-13 only you have said your personal opinion that is not supported by technical evidence.
The only thing i can say is a fact the J-10 powered by the WP-13C it needs further confirmation by more sources and offical acknowledgement, however until China releases all the pertaining information and this will take some time then we will know the degree of veracity of the Russian account.
however it has by it self some degree of likeliness because the Russians were involved in the program and it would not be unlikely it could had happened
See the MiG-23 STOL prototype the 23-01 was powered even by the R-27-300 that has a max afterburner power of only 7800 kg of thrust, yes the MiG-23 prototype 23-01 is the one that looks like a J-8II-Mirage III hybrid, to answer you the question Russia had so many engines and very early MiG-23 were powered by very low yield jet engines
The Ye-8 also was going to be the MiG-23 but never got that privilage it was powered by a R-21 a derivative of the R-13, so crobato the MiG-23 had much more options than any Chinese aircraft because Russia has much more experience building jet engines.
Also the Russian engine maker Lyulka would have to give information, technical expertise and SIBNIA advise the program, this means what ever China was making before the Russians stepped up was revealed to the Russians engineers and technitians so i have trust in the Russian acount
For goodness sake can we just ignore Flogger and do away with all this pointlessness? How is repeating the same thing time and over again achieving anything other then encourage him?
PLAWOLF
I did not start this thread, second here is a forum everybody has the right to express his points of view in a polite and respectful manner and third you reply to my posts only because i did not start the Lavi-J-10 controversy it is all over the internet, if you want to say i am a supporter of the IAI lavi-Connection you can say it however you are not, nevertheless you want to pretend these are my inventions when they are not, read thousends of reports claiming the connection and believe me i did not write them.
SOC wanted different opinions other than mine you have them and many support the russian and Israeli involvement.
What are you smoking? The Lavi resembles the F-16 if it resembles anything!
Sorry i meant IAI kfir resembles the Mirage V hehehe 😮
Well then, Strevitel. With so many engineers and scientists, why not simply build the Lavi without US parts? It couldn’t because it doesn’t have the infrastructure.
Kfir doesn’t “look” like a Mirage. It is a Mirage.
By the way, Strevitel, with all those scientists and smart people, wouldn’t you say Israel is intelligent enough to not stab its only friend in the back by selling the Lavi to China?
What is China to Israel? It’s nothing but a paying customer. But how much could China pay to match the billions in aid and more importantly the diplomatic protection that Israel gets every year from the US?
The benefit of Chinese money for the Lavi would be infitesmally small compared to the risk of losing American support. You have to be extremely stupid to risk it.
Golden Dragon
Israel as a nation is a free nation not dependant on the US, both are allies but they are not the same nation, also not all the people of one nation is the same, in each nation there are crooks, money sometimes moves people more than patriotic or moral obligations.
Israel has paid a price for the IAI lavi deal with China and it is the F-35 program.
The IAI Kfir does look like Mirage V in fact it is a derivative of the Mirage V, remember also France was a good ally of Israel in the early part of Israel`s history
Being proposed and actually doing it are two different things. As we all know, the Russians have track records of saying anything to make a buck but often fail to deliver. When you have an actual MiG-23 that flies with an AL-31F engine without very extensive modifications, then show it. Even the gearbox locations of the AL-31F and the R-25 engines are in different places.
Tell me, Flogger, what is the whole point of adding a mere 6600kg thrust engine to a prototype when the specified product uses a 12,500kg thrust engine? Can you tell me the structural effects on a monoque designed to fit a wide turbofan engine are forced to fit one of the smallest diameters turbojets in service? Can you tell me the resultant effects on such an engine when the intake tunnel is originally designed to not only fit a engine that is not only much wider in diameter, but has double the thrust and has to be optimized for bypass.
Your line of reasoning is so BS. When the JH-7 had trouble acquiring more Spey engines, they never once considered fitting it with two WP-13 engines. Even the FC-1 prototype never fitted the WP-13 engines just to “try out”.
Even if aircraft is upgraded with more powerful engines, these engines are still approximately the same size as the one they had originally.
And why would the J-10 even use the WP-13 if they had a prototype in 1995-96? Do you have a reasonable idea that even at that time, China already has spare AL-31Fs for their Su-27s which were recieved in 1992?
Why would you fit a WP-13, when you can do it with an actual AL-31F which is a lot more closer to the AL-31FN in dimension? Eh, explain that? And they didn’t use an AL-31F either because the plane is so tailored to fit the WS-10A/AL-31FN.
One thing you failed to account is that as planes become more advanced, their tolerances and specifications become a lot more tighter and they become a lot less accomodating when it comes to major changes. The more extensive amount of testing and modifications required for such changes would greatly enhance the cost of the aircraft. Every change creates a ripple effect through out the entire airframe. New stress lines have to be evaluated and tested, airflow retested again and so on. Changes of center of gravity requires reprogramming of the FBW, and that calls for another round of expensive tests. In fact you fail to account that the WP-13 is not just a smaller, but also a much lighter engine than the AL-31FN, that fitting it on a J-10 prototype creates such a serious difference of central of gravity that flight data results are absolutely useless for further development. Not only that but you have to reprogram the FBW twice, and programming a quadruplex FBW IS NOT EASY because each module requires a different set of codes so that each module cannot replicate a bug that would occur in one module.
Crobato
I gave you two articles and un July 2006 India decided to fit the Al-31
Основной истребитель-бомбардировщик ВВС Индии МиГ-27 получит новый двигатель, сообщает ИТАР-ТАСС.
This means the MiG-27 has gotten a new engine
По проекту модернизации, на истребитель-бомбардировщик МиГ-27 устанавливается один двигатель АЛ-31Ф. Новый двигатель весит на двести килограммов легче устанавливавшегося ранее Р-29Б-300, имеет на одну тонну большую, нежели старый двигатель, тягу (12300 кг/с против 11300), и одновременно на 15 процентов меньший расход топлива в номинальном режиме работы.
this means the MiG-27 will be equipped with Al-31, the engines gives higher thrust around a tonn more and spends 15% less fuel it weights 200 kg less than the R-29B, the Al-31 will be fitted to the MiG-27 and MiG-23BN that is already a fact
На вооружении ВВС Индии находится 150 истребителей бомбардировщиков МиГ-27 Bahadur. В настоящий момент предполагается модернизация 60 этих машин.
here they say at the present moment the indian air force will upgrade 60 MiG-27/MiG-23
Соответствующее заявление сделал генеральный директор ММПП “Салют” Юрий Елисеев на проходящем в Великобритании авиасалоне Farnborough-2006.
this are statements said by Saluyt general director Yuri Eliseev during Farnborough
The first chinese Su-27 are post 1992 and the design of the J-10 is much older if the Russian acount is right later China decided to fit an AL-31 however many prototypes are fitted with engines that are not the ones to become operational in the series manufactured aircraft, examples are many EAP/Eurofighter S-37 Berkut was equipped with the same engines that power the MiG-31
Tell me what Israel has on the aviation market. I don’t see the Lavi in the IAF and I don’t see anything else from IAI. When was the last Kfir made and sold?
Israel cancelled the project because it was an American plane, based on American technology and American parts. If it were any less American, Israel would simply have built it.
Here’s where the Lavi to China logic of the conspiracy theorists gets really stupid: Israel is afraid of the US so it cancels the Lavi. But it is not afraid of the US when it sells this very plane to China? Huh?
If you’re afraid enough of the US to cancel the project, you’d be doubly scared in selling the aircraft to China.
If you’re not afraid of selling the aircraft to China, you certainly shouldn’t be afraid of building it on your own.
Let’s face it, the Lavi was NEVER a viable project. It wasn’t viable even for Israel who has American parts and aid up the wazoo. So it CERTAINLY wasn’t viable for China who is embargoed from American parts.
Small detail? Actually a not-so-small detail that this country has access to and is completely dependent on American technology.
If it had any ability at all, it would have gone ahead and built and inducted the Lavi. It couldn’t because everything Israel needed came from the US.
Israel is one of the countries in the world with more scientists per inhabitant, many Israeli scientists have more than one citizenship, many prominet jewish scientist and engineers have immigrated to Israel and even Marcel Dassault was Jewish, so it is not weird the IAI Kfir looks like a Mirage