MiG-23MLDThe J-7 was developed further in China. What’s the difference, Strevitel?
Chinese are even better mathematicians as they won most of the mathematic Olympiads in the two decades. And if you want to go that route, according to WESTERN studies such as the “Bell Curve,” East Asians like the Chinese are around 10% more intelligent on average than Europeans :rolleyes:
It is a failure when it can’t even flying in your own airforce. The Lavi depended on American technology, American money and Americans period. If the Lavi could be built without American parts then Israel would have built it.
The J-10 as we all know is not dependent on American parts. If it were based on the Lavi then the US would have pulled the plug on it.
Of course, only the insanely stupid would think that the US would allow China to build the Lavi but not Israel.
Read Russian and american articles about the J-10 and what they say about the IAI Lavi-J-10 connection
the Russians say there was a connection, the americans say there was a connection Russia was involved in the J-10 Period i believe the Russian and american account not in your distorted Historical account.
The Russians know the J-10 program very well because they worked there in China with the Chinese to modified the Lavi
Hey by the way why Europeans are in average 10 times wealthier than chinese if they are less intelligent? why japanese are wealthier than chinese in average?
i recomend you read better studies not crap humans in average are the same, culture and education makes the difference
MiG-23MLDPure fact, Israel’s Lavi design was a failure and Israel has never developed an aircraft on its own.
Pure fact, Russia had not gotten a proper flying engine until the Russians acquired the Nene.
Pure fact, we would not be discussing warplanes and other engines of destruction based on combustion without the Chinese invention of gunpowder.
hehehehe Powder that was developed further in Europe and science that was developed in Europe.
Russia only used the nene to shorten time but Russia has so good mathematicians and scientist that they have developed so much aerospace technology that besides the US no one stands behind them
The Lavi is not a failure is a success for Israel it is flying as the J-10 😉
the two regions in the 21st cetury that have more nobel prizes and hold more patents and break throughs in technology are still Europe and the US we like it or not
MiG-23MLDWhy do you bring irrelevant items into this discussion, Strevitel?
Russia would not be flying jets if it weren’t for the Nene. Israel has never created an aircraft without massive gifts in money and technology from the US.
:rolleyes: Without American influence (the Wright brothers), Russia, France and the UK would be flying kites.
Without gunpowder, every nation would still be using swords and arrows. Why bother talking about who’s influencing who in airplanes if you are going to take that stupid argument, Strevitel?
golden dragon
These are facts China could not develop the J-10 with the lavi you like it or not and without russian Russian experts they would not have gotten it flying with a proper engine
By the way Russia had domestic engines before the nene and the rest of engines were totally developed in russia
tell me how many patents are hold by Russians, english and french? you will see that aircraft techology in Europe and america are well balanced
MiG-23MLDWages are rising at the rate of 60 to 70% each year (take note, India!). Provinces like Guangzhou are having difficulty filling factories now with skilled labor. The PLA itself is having trouble keeping people when they practically use up their 14% budget increases on salary increases alone.
If you have a country with over a trillion in dollar reserves, bigger even than the Japanese, you sure can get some work done nonetheless. The amount of interest the US pays China alone for TDs can buy over 50 to Su-30 Flankers every year.
If the minimal wage is 60 cents of US dollar an hour and they pay you 60% increase i feel still salaries are quit low, a french can expect a minimun wage of 1500 Euros a month how many Euros can exepct a Chinese a month?
A well trained engineer in France can make at least 4000 euros a month
MiG-23MLDCome on, friend, I read enough hate posts towards you from Indians in Chinese threads to know you are Chinese in all but name, Sean. You have to think I’m an ostrich to not figure that out. Let us not fight, friend 🙂
The point is they ARE Chinese products. Made and manufactured in China. The Mig-21 and power plant “designs” would remain designs on paper in Swaziland or the vast majority of countries outside the P5.
Are we even disagreeing? A “design” is a piece of nothing unless converted into reality. Unless you believe the world is virtual where factories are not needed to build aircraft then we are not in disagreement.
Why you distort the aviation history?
There would no be any J-10 would not Russia and Israel had been involved in the program.
There would not be any JH-7 flying would not Britan granted the license of its engines.
Would not be J-7 without Russian passing the blueprints and the machinery needed to build it and without the training to the chinese engineers by Russian universities China would be only flying kites.
Without any foreign influence China would not be flying aircraft,
Without Ukrainian involvement there would not be any WS-10.
China needs, has used and had obsorbed foreign technology and expertise in each program it is involved.
There are two important things to be acknowledged to the Chinese and one is constancy, they have a good record carrying out aircraft programs and second they have some degree of domestic design that togather with foreign input has allowed China to develop an advanced industry.
the rest of nations like Brazil, India, Japan either have invested less in aerospace technology or have other type of agreements with their foreign tech suppliers.
Undoutedly the Chinese space manned program is where you can see China has done great progress in aviation, however this is not going to remain static, Brazil was member of the space station, Japan too, the practicality of the international space station does not minimize the japanese or Brazilian space programs.
the Future is not static and nations like India, Japan Brazil are going to either achieve higher levels of space technology or pool their technology in the ISS because undoutedly we are not going to space as single nations but as a Human species.
MiG-23MLDAlthough i agree to a degree on your concept of using other assets to accomplish feats much earlier but to a point. for example RR and LMA used russian tech ( for the clutch or something on those accounts i am not certain) however had they not licenced it could they have followed a different path and acheived it ? The answer for most logical persons would be yes !! The reason they went with the russian stuff was because the russians had something that worked and was ready and LMA and others needent waste precious dollars trying to come up with a sollution when one perfectly good one allready exists . However there is a point where you have to draw a line . Sourcing is one thing but we have to differentiate it with indegenous ability first . Can LMA build , design and manufacter the F-35 entirely in the US using entire US assets ?? The answer is a big big yes , could Airbus completely design and build the a380 with the existing european partners ?? Again yes , Can boing build the 787 entirely in the US rather then use Fuji,kawasaki,alenia etc etc , the answer is again a big yes !! However can the same thing be said about some of the chinese projects?? Not yet!! The reason why commercial aviation sources outside ( like boeing for the 787 for example) is that it is basically very cheap for Fuji or kawasaki to develop the damn wing , not only can they do it cheaper but boeing can also negotiate a better price by making competitors bid for best work at best price , furthermore look at the union situation with boeing , they’ll simply go under if they dont use the dreamliner approach , then comes the part where a multi-nation project would sell because each countries industry has a stake in it . With the F-35 it is all about offsets and technical assistance . Most people say how the partner nations got a bad deal and the US got the goodies with the F-35 MOU’s however i really find it hard to see it , the US collects the cheque for all the cost overruns even though other nations have a profit stake , the US gives off work to the countries for the SDD phase atleast even without receiving any guarantees on purchases .
Bring It On
We have to analize why China can not build large numbers of J-10 as she did with the J-7
Let`s start with production ratio, the most produced fighter in aviation History has been the Me-109 close to 36000 were built, the production rate of the MiG-15 is close to 1:2 it means for each MiG-15 built there were two Me-109 built.
the production ratio for the MiG-21 is 1:3. it means there were 3 Me-109 built for each and every MiG-21 built consider that we are talking about the total MiG-21 production in Russia (former Soviet Union) India, China etc etc..
The MiG-23 ratio is 1:7 for each an every MIG-23 built there were 7 Me-109 built
now for each and every F-16 built there were 9 Me-109 built it means the F-16 has a ratio of 1:9
The F-15 has a production ratio of 1:16.2 so for each and every F-15 built there were close to 16.2 Me-109 built.
The F-22 has the abysmal ratio of 1:75 so for each and every F-22 planned to be manufacture there were 75 Me-109 built.
now a fighter like the He-162 was designed in months, the MiG-21 in few years but the F-22 and J-10 in close to 3 decades.
This means that in order to build modern aircraft you have to involve more people and build in countries where salaries are cheaper to avoid delays and increases in programs costs.
We can not expect China to replace each fighter on a one on one basis and we can expect the J-10 will have a production run of no more than 2000 aircraft at its best.
frankly i think China won`t built more than 800 J-10s during a time period of several decades and the JF-17 at the most will reach a production total of 2000 aircraft during a time period of several decades if it is lucky
MiG-23MLDThe amount of countries can and have built aircraft parts are in the scores if not over hundred. Who said otherwise?
The point I made is that countries with the industrial and manufacturing base with the ability can build or develop military aircraft on the scale of China are in the P5 only.
This has ALWAYS been the case since the 1960s. Otherwise, we would have aircraft from India and Japan flying in airforces all over the world like China does.
Brazil is an exception that proves the rule. Most third countries do not have a first rate company like Embraer (created by a close partnership with European aerospace firms that few third world nation can dream of.) But Brazil does not compete with China and the other P5 in military sales outside propeller trainers (and the one exception of the AMX.)
Golden Dragon
Brazil and China are not very different, however both are building aircraft, China pours lots of money into aviation and recieved technology transfers, design parts and work with mostly Russia, Pakistan and Israel in their military programs.
Other nations are not pouring as much money.
In latin America brazil is building aircraft doing the same as China associated to European and American companies mostly, Mexico has out source lots of aircraft manufacturing jobs but by 2010 they will be building jet engines for Honey well, airbust 380 landing gears parts and very likely assenbling entire Bombardier jets, they also design aircraft parts for US and European compaies,
China,India and Japan are in that sense top end sourcing and almost have mastered all the needed technologies but Brazil and Mexico are working in a globalized world building jet airliners.
Brazil knows perfectly globalization means adquiring technology transfers but also being part of that international chain of aircraft manufactoring.
China is aiming at building top class aircraft and building them at very large scale however modern aircraft are harder to build and can only be build in fewer numbers than the earlier J-6 and J-7.
The JF-17 won`t change that specailly when the aircraft won`t close the gap and stealth fighters are the skies
MiG-23MLDThere is a huge difference between making an aircraft (“indigenous” design or not) out of parts created entirely at home and assembling parts imported from the rest of the world. There is also a massive difference between building a type or two in small batches and building a huge amount of types (and their associated variants) in the hundreds if not thousands.
Take the J-7: even if the initial design of the J-7 was not Chinese, every example is a Chinese aircraft from the first bolt onwards. And there are over 1000 of them where not a single part needs to be imported.
Among the silliest ideas propagated on the internet is that copying a “design” will somehow make a plane magically appear :rolleyes:
This is stupidity of kids who live on the internet and think the world is virtual. In order for an aircraft to actually appear out of some design, huge infrastructure systems have to put into place. A “design” means nothing without the means to make it a reality. A “design” on paper whether it is thought up by someone “indigenously” or overseas means absolutely nothing unless the nation has the will, ability and resources to turn that design into an actual aircraft.
China has the ability to turn a large variety of designs from pen and paper into real aircraft. This isn’t something that most countries outside the P5 could do on the same scale.
You give the F-16, F-18, Su-27 and Mig-29 blueprints to Luxembourg, Peru, Sweden and China and no access to American or Russian parts and see who has the most examples of all four aircraft by the end of five, 10 and 15 year intervals.
Resources, personel and an established industrial and manufacturing base on the scale of the P5 are simply not there in most nations.
The ability of making aircraft is not as limited as you think, many nations are currently building aircraft parts or aircraft out side your selected group of 5, India is an example, Brazil another, Japan another well known example.
The only difference China has with them is China is pouring large amounts of money, today is very easy for a nation to get technology for example Mexico by 2010 will be producing 737 engines and Bombardier jets, Brazil is building already 737 class jets, it not magical as you say, China imports many aircraft parts too.
In 2006 the aviation production chain is more widely spread than in 1945, even nations like turkey build aircraft parts.
however in military terms China is not going for cheap fighters, china is going for good quality however they have to see other nations are advancing too so it is hard to stay on top.
The problem is also more advanced jets mean also more expensive aircraft too and this reduces too the numbers you can purchase.
China is trying to be on top but this can not be achieved without alliances with other nations building aircraft, the fact is China is not isolated is working with several other nations to develop technology and even pay for some projects
you also might think nations like Brazil, India or even Mexico or South Korea are not designing but as China many nations have R&D centers owned by general electric or honeywell to cite some examples, these develop technology for these firms and you think that because these firms are american those technologies were designed by americans when in reality these technologies were developed in other nations but america and by american engineers.
Aircraft like the A-380, boeing 787 even F-22 are not build by entirely by the nations or nations originally in the project in fact many nations work in those projects same is with China what happens you forget technology transfer very easily
MiG-23MLDAlthough I believe number of people (including me) are trying to avoid replying to you, at least I should reply once:
1. I don’t think you understand the original topic. The original post was about the current somewhat caotic status of China’s military aviation industry, not about whether China knows how backward they are. And I’ve offered my analysis
2. Now about your points: China is already lagging behind. Thank you, I thought everybody including the chinese themselves know that for the last 100 hundred years. Just to remind you, 56 years ago when western countries were producing jet fighters, PRC made her first plane (not the official one, it’s actually a rust Japanese plane), the cockpit windows was made of a farmer’s family window glasses.
My point is I see them closing the gap, while you don’t.
I think you are misundestanding me. i know the chinese are lagging out they are not stupid to think they have to invest in fighters that won`t close the Gap, also they do military sales predictions, they know perfectly the market is saturated, few nations will buy chinese aircraft and those nations are mostly poor so their profits will be small.
If you have two competing designs one is more advanced and cheap is better to invest in that one the J-10 is more less cheap and quit advanced .
The JF-17 is also an advanced design however i guess the J-10 is better and still is competitive in terms of price.
Some natiosn will buy perhaps JF-17 but it is better for a nation buy a better fighter because if they get in trouble with a western military equipment user well F-35s will make that aircraft a wreckage.
The Russians already know the Su-27 days as their most sold aircraft are over the same the French with their Mirage 2000, the americans also know their F-15 and F-16s are going to be thing of the past in few years too, so they are investing in newer and better figters why china would not follow that path? 😉
MiG-23MLDI just want to comment on the original topic, which is about the current status of China’s mil aviation industry.
Put it this way, they are going through the painful transition stage, which happenned to other countries already. In the next 1 or 2 decades, some companies will be merged or dismantled. So now, everyone is desperately trying to prove their capabilities to survive. Thus you can see all these different projects, some are necessary because china needs to catch up, others are desperate struggles. Believe me, the competition is fierce in China.
The Original question was is China investing too much in high quality aircrraft that their sheer quantity of aircraft will be reduced to a minimun?
the answer depends in what other nations are doing and what is the percived threat?
Several nations are also replacing obsolete aircraft, NATO is doing it with Eurofighters and Rafales the US with F-22s, Russia still is not replacing her fleet of fourth generation fighters.
This process is what many call what is the best option? crappy JF-17s or good J-10s.
China has quality and quantity what happens many think the JF-17 is the super fighter.
If the west adopts F-35s armed with IRIS-T, ASRAAM and Meteors and Russia field soon the I-21, the JF-17 will be an obsolete fighter very soon (already is), further more F-22 and Eurofighters are too advanced.
Solution China should and seems to be opting for J-10s and J-11s but in 10 years from now the J-10 will be obsolete because already the F-22 and F-35 have left anything else obsolete.
Russia is betting in her new super fighters of the fifth Generation, probably Europe will upgrade the Eurofighter to a level that will offer a Super Typhoon or Rafale with 90% of the capabilities of an F-22.
in few words already China is lagging behind because the J-10 at the most is a JAS-39 class fighter that even latest versions of F-18E, F-16E and F-15E can shoot down.
China needs get into the next level of fighter aircraft and develop fifth generation combat aircraft soon if not all what the J-10 and J-11 will do is being shot down
MiG-23MLDHow do you figure? There have been more F-15s built than Flankers (of all types), more F-18s than Mig-29s, add to that thousands of F-16s, Mirage 2000s, and Tornados. . . Unless Russia has some other 4th generation fighter besides the Flanker and the Fulcrum?
I think you are confused, i talk about China versus Russia in terms of fourth generation fighters, China has around +200 Su-27s Russia has around 400 Su-27s and another 400 MiG-29 plus 360 MiG-31, China has not as many Su-27s or J-10s.
however NATO must have at least 4000 fourth generation fighters available.
at least 3000 F-16s, Mirage 2000. Tornados and F-18s available
Also many aircraft are stored
MiG-23MLDNot things like radars or whatnot, but actual personnel, factory space, things like that.
No it’s not, when you consider that there are other products that they could export. The JF-17 isn’t the only aircraft they can export.
It is laughable all this arguments about the JF-17, China has no F-22 operational equivalent hardly has a better fighter than the JAS-39 and has even less number than the swedes.
The JF-17 is crap is not a stealth aircraft properly and the F-35 surpass it completly even the F-18E or F-15I can beat it.
the rest of Chinese aircraft are 400 J-8IIs which are MiG-23 equivalents or F-4E and some 300 Su-27 the US and Russia have more Su-27s and F-15s than China Su-27s Japan has more less the same numebr of F-15s.
The J-6 is crap is not more than a Su-17 class aircraft at the most and the J-7 is also crap won`t stand a chance against modernized F-16Is or F-16Fs.
in terms of economic terms and production capability a F-22 class fighter will be expensive and at the moment they have not one, niether and F-35 or Rafale equivalent and much less a Eurofighter.
China has no technology to built an AN-124 or a C-5 even a Il-76 class aircraft by it self.
the harrier is out of the question harly can make a R-33 engine or an AL-31 equivalent an stil are just entering production talking about an AL-41 is still far far away and the `Pegasus out of the question.
Conclusion China has domestic technology but still unproven has good quality and good quality means less numbers also has poorer populations and a 2% or 4% expenses of the GDP in military stuff has a burden in the chinese population.
It`s impossible to think a poor US will allow China to survive economically and a Rich US means stay behind in technology at least for the near future same is Europe and even Russia
MiG-23MLDThe question does not depend in China but against what nation is compared it.
NATO air forces are the only world`s military force capable to tacle China conventionaly without nukes
NATO has hordes of F-15s, F-16s, Mirage 2000, Gripens, Tornados, Viggens etc etc some stealth fighters F-22, F-117, B-2, large numbers of naval F-18s.
has more than 20 aircraft cariers and three nuclear powers.
ANY ATTACK ON ANY NATO MEMBER IS AN ATTACK ON ALL NATO MEMBERS Nato has three nuclear armed powers.
China in that sense is totally out classed in military terms .
Now if the enemy is a single power as Russia well Russia is out classed in numbers of obsolete in service aircraft, slightly ahead in numbers of fourth generation fighters but in nuclear stock pile and some major strategic weapons surpasses China by a large margin, in that sense China is still out classed.
India is a minor nuclear and military powers but still a threat it is just slightly out classed by the Chinese in military terms.
Japan totally out classed, however it is a non Declared NATO member.
Same is South Korea and TAIWAN all of this nations are out classed by China as single powers
Today Chinese air force is as capable as Japan in terms of combat capability however still has large numbers of obsolete aircraft.
Any other nation in the world besides these last is totally out classed by China by the exception of Israel whicjh is a non declared NATO member and possess nukes.
In terms of technology China has 30 years of lagg with respects the US and can not compete with it in fourth generation aircraft numbers.
Russiia is problably ahead 15 years ahead of China.
EUROPE is ahead at least 20 years too and in numbers ahead too.
India and Japan are on Par with China in technology and fourth generation fighters.
Israel is behind China at least 10 years in almost all the technologies except missiles.
Rest of the world is behind China in numbers and technology.
Except probably Braxil which is probably 10-15 years behind of China in aircraft technology but is totally out classed in military fleet has no nukes but has the forth largest civil aviation industry.
Predictions: China won`t surpass NATO in the near or mid term Future at least for 20-30 years, probably can surpass Russia it it does not re arm and JOINS NATO or forms a new SOVIET UNION with its CIS partners., INDIA MAY STAY oN PAR, Japan will decline probably and will be surpassed by China in 30 years, Brazil might be on PAR WITH CHINA IN 30 years from now in technology
MiG-23MLDI have to say that perhaps the B-29 is not as beautiful to my taste as the Me-264 but undoutedly had a bigger impact than any WWII bomber, same i can say about the Il-2 with respects the Ju-87, however is just looks, like women not always the pretty one is a smart one 😀
These are my 10 favorite propeller driven attack and bomber aircraft of WWII
Number 0ne is the Me-264
Number two is the Ju-388
Number three is the Ju-87
number four is the B-29 
number five is the He-111
Number six is the is Il-10
number seven is the D4Y
Number eight is the the He-117
Number nine is the Pe-2
and number 10 is the B-17
MiG-23MLDOkay :diablo: And you gotta admit if the world had never seen the Blackbird before and they rolled it out today “Lockheed unveils it’s new Mach 3 stealth aircraft” people’s jaws would be on the floor. That thing has “futuristic” written all over it even today.
When i first saw the YF-23 i liked it more than the YF-22, but i feel the modernized and modified F-22 is a cool design
however the rest of stealth aircraft i found them not so beautiful
the X-32 was the ugliest
as beautiful as this Blohm und Voss BV-141 
or as beautiful as the XF-85
The XF-91 thurderceptor was another ugly design in the class of the X-32
Another ugly aircraft the Caproni CA-60
another ugly design was the Me-323 Gigant
Here is the Bell XP-77 one of the ugliest aircraft ever designed from my point of view
This competed with the X-32 for the trophey as the ugliest design
the XFV-1
this aircraft is like the F-117, definitively is ugly but i found some power in it that makes it beautiful in an extrange way the Do-335
same is the F-117 what an ugly aircraft only because is an stealth aircraft if makes me feel is powerful other than that is really ugly
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