Yup and so conviently you chose a J-10B…

Why? so that it’ll better suit your need that the J-10 resembles the Lavi?

It is not a matter of only looks but of historical accounts, when you read about the Ching kuo or the F-2 you know perfectly General Dynamics (now Lockheed) was involved in their designs, in the case of the J-10 it has been reported the Israeli involvement, Russian reports acknowledge the Israeli involvement, the Russian evidence is the best since they played an important part in the J-10 design.

The americans also reported Israeli involvement, so it has been accepted by the vast majority of Historians the J-10 has an IAI Lavi ancestry even in spite the J-10 has several different aerodynamic characteristics.

I could give a variety of reasons why the J-10 clearly draws more heavily on Israel’s Lavi experience, than on the Typhoon, Rafale or Gripen.

• Chin inlet – like the Lavi and Typhoon, but unlike the Rafale or Gripen
• Single engine – like the Lavi and Gripen, but unlike the Rafale or Typhoon
• Area ruled fuselage – like the Lavi, unlike the Typhoon, Rafale or Gripen

I don’t have to assume, however: According to Jane’s All the World’s Aircraft, there was a period of time during the 1990s when Russian visitors to the Chengdu aircraft factory reported seeing signs all over the facility, posted in Hebrew. Israel engineers clearly played a significant role in the J-10’s development.

This does NOT make the J-10 a Lavi clone. The J-10 is significantly larger, and was sized to meet China’s requirements rather than Israel’s. The relationship between the two airplanes, however, is real.

The main question is who is claiming the Lavi-J-10 connection and why?

The Lavi was reborned in the J-10, up to what i have read the J-10 has suffered several design modifications and redesigns.

Early in its carreer from a Mirage 2000 and Mirage 4000 hybrid aerodynamic model proposal, was redesigned to a IAI Lavi looking clone with Israeli help, however they needed to ask Russia to further redesign the aircraft.


Russian sources do claim for example the fly by wire system that equips the J-10 is designed in China and this provoked the lost of one prototype, however the Chinese engineers succeed in the design of the Fly by wire system.
So by 1998 the first prototype as we know it was basicly flown, the J-10A was flown in 2000 though.

The ameicans based their arguments on their intelligence services, the Russians on first hand experience since they were in China helping the Chinese and have a good image of the J-10 program.

the Israelies do not denied involvement in the J-10 they only denied the degree of involvement, Israel has helped China in the development of airborne fighter radars and has offered even one to equip the J-10 that basicly uses technology taken from the Lavi.
Weaponry is basicly the same in what respects the Python III, both the Lavi and J-10 use it.

Now Russian sources claim that the Chinese intent to build up to 1500 J-10s in a 10 years period.

The F-16 which basicly is similar in technological terms has had a production run for almost 30 years and more than 4000 aircrafts have been produced.

We have to consider that China is not Sweden and has much much resources in order to produce large numbers of J-10s

The prospects and expectations by the Chinese regarding the J-10 production sound feasible, 1200 J-10s in a 10 year period is not a unlikely production number, however it implies that China has totally mastered the technologies involved in the J-10 manufacture.

At this moment a production number of 300 sounds achievable and very but very likely to be acomplished.

With this very likely we can see that China still is struggling to have quantity and quality.

In Asia and in specifically in east Asia, if the J-10 production expectations are reached we can say that China will achieve total superiority in numbers and in technology over any asian rival including even India.

Russia is the big unknown at this moment while there is no Light weight I-21 in production and while we can not predict large numbers produced for the Russian or foreign users we can say is already lagging behind China.

This would mean that the only way to counter act the J-10s will be large fleets of F-22s or very well armed F-35s.

India and japan would need purchase a new generation fighter of the fifth generation and large numbers of fourth generation aircrafts to couter balance the Chinese fleet of J-10s

Quite wrong. There will still be a J-10 no matter what. It’s prime inspiration is the F-16, and the Israelis are far from the best ones with the experience on delta canards. The Russians, the Europeans, all of whom have their connections to China one way or another, have much better experience in delta canard design.

You are right, according to the Russian webpages i have read, the J-10 program was stalled many times but in one way or other they pulled out of the trench, they say one of the first J-10s models was like a Mirage 2000 with big canards, later early in the 1990s with Russian help they built a Lavi clone as many American reports say however see that without israeli or Rusian input the program would had first flown very late in the 2010 because they had too much trouble and for that reason they asked Russia for the Engine.

however Russia in many ways have been a big benefactor of China and probably one of its best friends in the Western world

I brought out the Bell Curve because you’re the racist who repeatedly attempted to say that the massive infrastructure and the 250,000 members of the Chinese aviation industry are nothing and that their work is nothing because of the “design” even every part of a J-7, J-8 or JH-7 is built in China.

Now why are your stereotypes okay but the scientific work of Hernstein and Murray are not? Because the Bell Curve does not conform to your stereotype of the Chinese?

No you brought it because you believe it, in fact you are the only one claiming Indians, brazilians Japanese and africans are not in the five club it is quit foolish boast the works of others say they are your own and later claim because India has the same level of technology is not in that club, you are a wolf in Sheep`s clothes minimalizing other nations efforts and boasting russian or Israeli technology as Chinese that is falsifying aviation History

No, I don’t believe in the Bell Curve, Strevitel. You’re the racist who insists that everything in China must be somehow a copy. You’re the one who claimed that Europeans and Russians are somehow more intelligent than the Chinese.

As a rebuke I showed you the Bell Curve, which WESTERN researchers have themselves put East Asians on top of whites.

Don’t put forth your stupid and inane stereotypes about the Chinese and then expect us to accept it. I’m giving you material from your camp of thought that said we are not less intelligent but more.

You can’t pick and chose literature just to back your own racist stereotypes about the Chinese.

First do not put words i never said. you are falsifying the truth, i sustained the J-10 has a Lavi connection because Knowledge you might not want to admited is a comodity yes a comodity like water.

Knowledge costs and rich nations try to keep knowledge hidden that is the reason of law suit for industrial spionage

China did not develop the principles of modern aerodynamics that is the truth niether rocket science as we know it now, german american and in General western scientists developed modern aviation.

therefore China in order to make the J-10 needed foreign experts something you also deny, they needed foreign technology something you also denied, you brought up the bell curve only to defend your self from your own fears and feelings.

Russia in 1945 was an aviation power in fact remember the first all metal aircraft was made in Russia, the first helicopter as we know it was developed by a Russian however they knew was better get a technological transfer than rather spend more time in R&D.

If you qoute me right you will see i said the chinese were smart enough to understand the israeli and Russian experience would cut R&D time so they took that oportunity

Russian websites claim the J-10-Lavi connection.

in general the level of Russian and Soviet science in Russia was one of the best in the world in 1945 and in that China was not at the same level, reality the MiG-17, MiG-19 and MiG-21 were built in China. You hate addmit the foreign input due to your own fears.

The state of science in a nations is reflected in the inventions and discoveries made by that nation in a time period.

I do not believe in the bell curve simply because that is not anthropogy that is bourgoisie science as the Soviets claimed you support that because you believe as the Nazis did in the superiority of one race over other, however all humans we like it or not are the same because we are the same spieces

See who is the racist 😉

Yeah and the West has such a clean record with its rise in the world. China has nothing compared to those crimes. Interesting that the West didn’t go through their industrial revolution until after they started raping the world. How much did they steal from the world and put their names on it? And we know a lot of it came from China.

The Western world did not achieved its power thanks to violence as you claim, the West achieved technological superiority because as China is doing now Absorbed all the ancient knowledge or in few words got technology transfers and the latest knowledge from Greece and the arab world, this was achieved thanks to commerce, an open society, let`s remember the West developed Democracy as a modern concept, the Judeo-Christian world view and the Greek love for science and knowledege gave to the West leadership in technological terms.

NOw the question is why China needs 1200 J-10s, probably several hundred JF-17 and otehr hundreds of Su-27s and JH-7s? the answer lies in the fact that any comecial power needs a military arm to protect its interests.

China is developing it`s industry throughout Legal and illegal technological transfers (copy) they are already developing any commercial product.

The J-10 reflects a great victory of China over the US since the original F-16 technology was transfered to the PLAAF.

China did the same to the Former Soviet Union in the MiG-21 and MiG-23.

China is the most populated country in the world and at least 1 in 6 humans is chinese, their future is bright because they are a great part of humanity.

The Chinese are trying to become world leaders in military aviation and we can say they are already in the big leagues, the fact that nations like Venezuela or brazil it self get technology transfers from China in Satellites reflects they are already a super power in aviation.

However tyhe problem is in this forum many do not want to acknowledge China achieved this level thanks in part to foreighn input.

So you are insisting that Israel has backstabbed the United States?

And the Israel government, furthermore, is continuing to lie about this and the US government refuses to take action?

So why hasn’t the Lavi question been blown wide open in Congress?

Because the most obvious reason is there is no evidence that a plane dependent on American technology and parts could possibly fly in China where American parts and technology are denied.

Well, then if the Russians were there, why would China bother with a failed design from a country that has never designed its own aircraft and which was dependent on American technology and parts to boot?

Are you saying that this design which Israel can’t even build for its own airforce is better than what the Russians can come up with on their own?

Are you making sense at all?

here is where you are wrong.

China has done a smart move, technology transfers short cut the development time period.

Israel was in 1980 like China licensing aircraft and deriving aircraft, both could not turn the J-10 program into a real operational aircraft because both lacked an Engine. Israel is the second most important tech transfer supplier to China after Russia.

The whole issue here is China is aiming at getting the best technology and build it as soon as possible to modernize its air force as fast as possible with the less delay.

They want to build the largest numbers possible and the AL-31 allows that, China is aiming at quality and quantity.

Without Russian involvement the J-10 would had flown for the first time with a chinese engine probably in 2010 when already the aircraft will be totally obsolete like the J-8II was in the 1990s.

So the russian engine fills the gap while the chinese developed engine is design.

TECH TRANSFERS CHEAPEN R&D and allows you to get the things before they are obsolete

Lavi has many design faults that if the Israelis were advising the Chinese, they were advising to _avoid_ these features.

Nose too small. Radar limited. Solution. Make bigger nose. The radar on the J-10 is bigger than the Lavi’s or F-16’s and puts right in the MiG-29’s class.

Fixed intake is always a compromise. Solution. Use variable Intake.

The F-16 copy tail is not adequete for stabilizing for an unstable plane. Solution. Use a bigger tail.

Bubble canopy creates excess drag. Solution. Use a more streamlined canopy.

Canards causes intereference drag over the wings. Solution. Lengthen the distance between canards and the wings.

The J-10 has other features too, the Lavi didn’t. Two control surfaces on the wing vs. one. Putting the leading edge slat midway instead of the whole length of the wing creates a breaktooth in the wing that stabilizes the planes at higher angles of attack. You know which plane uses this too? The Gripen.

If you look closely at the J-10, you see details that you don’t see with other delta canards. Neat gloved rest for the canards for example, positioned exactly so the turning joints won’t be exposed to frontal radar.

See the back of the J-10. It’s curved outward like the MiG-29 Fullback, not inward like the F-16C. Purpose? You can only guess its both avionics and fuel. Look at the remarkably large bladders at the wing roots. You can easily see the fuel caps as dots near the wing roots. This thing must hold a lot of fuel for its size.

Regardless to what degree the Israelis, Chinese and the Russians work on this, the whole product is extremely well thought of in the details and execution and far more ambitious than the Lavi. The more you study it, the more new details appear.

I totally agree with you