MiG-23MLDCan’t use the WP-13 for a prototype, silly. The engine has too narrow a diameter, and its even more narrower than the RD-33 used on the FC-1. Lavi, F-16, MiG-21, and the J-10 no doubt are all monoque structures where the airframe is literally a skin wound around the engine. This kind of design can only tolerate an engine conversion where the other engine must have very similar size parameters. but not when the dimensions are as drastic as the WP-13 which is a slim turbojet vs. the AL-31FN, which is a much fatter bypass turbofan.
A false reasoning i will ask you how it is possible the MiG-23 and MiG-27 have been fitted from the ultra fat AL-31 that has a diameter of 1.14 meter to the slim R-35 of only 0.912 meters or the R-29 of 0.986 meter of diameter or 0.91 meters of diameter depending in the variant?
check that Lyulka offers a retrofitting of the Al-31 to MiG-23s and MiG-27 already India will upgrade 60 MiG-23 with newer AL-31
The MiG-23ML is powered by the R-35, The MiG-23BN is power by the R-29B, the MiG-23M is powered by the R-29-300, the latest upgrade accepts the Al-31 Lyulka currently powering Su-27s and J-10s
в конце 1993 г.) завершается строительство прототипа истребителя. Внешне он напоминал «Лави». Это была одноместная машина с двигателем WP13C со штатной системой спасения китайской разработки, с авионикой и РЛС израильской разработки.
here they say the first aircraft was fitted with a WP-13C and looked very similar to the IAI Lavi, was construted at the end of 1993 and was fitted with israeli avionics.
want to check diameters and sizes well here is the link http://www.airwar.ru/enginer.html , in fact the PW 1120 has a diameter of 1.02 metes and the R-13/WP-13 have a diameter of 0.907 meters
MiG-23MLDIt goes very well only with the internet claims. It goes against all reason when we look at real world and official American and Israeli actions.
1. The Israeli government has denied any transfer of the Lavi,
2. ALL five Lavi prototypes are in Israel, not China,
3. There were no US Congressional punishment for the sale of the Lavi to China. There is absolutely no way that the US government would stop Israel from building the Lavi but not punish Israel for selling the same aircraft to its biggest rival,
4. Israel has a much smaller and far less experienced aircraft design and manufacturing industry than China; whatever is passed from the Lavi program that is worth something to China would be American; this goes back to number 3, if American technology was passed, we would know for sure from an official American document. There is no US document stating that the Lavi had unequivocably gone to China,
Strevitel, you are engaging in a conspiracy theory. You pretending you have more knowledge and resources than the US Congress, the US Senate and the American intelligence arms who would have made clear if the Lavi had actually gone to China.
You are pretending that you know that the Israeli government lied about the Lavi and had backstabbed the US and you are also hinting that Israel controls the US government so that the Americans would not even punish Israel for what would be an extremely damaging trangression.
Look at Phalcon and Harpy and even the Lavi project, US reaction and punishment was swift and clear. There was no punishment for this alleged Lavi transfer which would have been a far, far, far more serious transgression than either Phalcon or Harpy. Lavi was blocked by the US for Israel itself, it could not then be sold to China without extreme consequences for Israel.
Strevitel, you engage in conspiracy theories not facts.
Lets refresh the memory Tigershark
In the summer of 2000, the Washington Times reported that a memo circulating inside the Pentagon’s Defense Threat Reduction Agency told analysts they no longer had to gain input from the Defense Intelligence Agency before deciding whether controlled technology should be transferred to Israel. The DIA had compiled evidence that Israel had violated US export regulations by transferring missile, laser and aircraft technology to China. add that to the Russian websites and add this more
In March 1997, despite official denials from Israeli officials, the US Office of Naval Intelligence in its unclassified “Worldwide Challenges to Naval Strike Warfare” restated more strongly than it had the previous year its belief that US-derived technology from the canceled Israeli Lavi fighter was being used on China’s new F-10 fighter. It said, “The design has been undertaken with substantial direct external assistance, primarily from Israel and Russia, with indirect assistance through access to US technologies.” In fact, according to the annual intelligence report, “the F-10 is a single-seat, light multi-role fighter based heavily on the canceled Israeli Lavi program”.
So mister do not claim the US has not accused Israel of such deals if you do the puzzles and check Russian and American webpages you will see a wider picture
read that and compared to the russian allegations of the J-10 powered by a WP-13 and later redesigned to adapt an AL-31
China and Israel started collaboration in the early 1980s and full-scale cooperation was under way officially by 1984. As neither China nor Israel was capable of developing the propulsion system required by the J-10, in 1991 China acquired the AI31F turbofan engine from Russia for incorporation into the J-10 fighter. This engine is also used in the Su-27 air-superiority fighter that Chinese acquired from Russia. As the performance of the AL31F engine is significantly better than that of the American PW1120 originally slated for the Lavi, it may be anticipated that the performance of the J-10 will be accordingly enhanced. Built by the Chengdu Aircraft Industrial Corp, the J-10 attempts to rival current fourth-generation Western fighters. China has inked a 10-year deal with the Russian engine maker SRPC Salut for 300 Al-31F engines for its J-10 program and will begin
sourcehttp://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/lavi.html
MiG-23MLDI think You have a severe problem with reading and understanding !
I never said that all Russians were lying nor did I say that the Israeli had nothing to do with that plane.
All I say is that only because of several Russian internet pages – which often quote one each other and repeat every time the same – that the J-10 is a development of or even clone of the Lavi this statement won’t become truth !
I agree that there have been some Russian assistance – mainly with engine integration and maybe some other systems too – but the J-10 is surely not a Lavi captured by some Chinese (or secretly delivered by Mossad to China), given to Russian aerospace technicians, which developed the J-10 from it ! …. that’s pure nonsense and if You are able to understand the arguments given by crobato and others especially regarding the aerodynamic differences between the Lavi and the J-10 You would know what we mean.
…. so why this useless discussion ???
Deino 🙁
Deino
Let`s go by parts
Russian sources claim the israelies and Chinese struck a secret deal in which they commited to further develop the IAI Lavi, the motives were clear, Israel needed china as a weapons customer and did not want to waste the IAI Lavi Technology paid for, the documentation pertaining to the IAI Lavi was delivered to Chengdu, Chengdu got leadership of the program and they developed with the Israeli a prototype fitted with the best engine China had. the WP-13, the engine and aircraft fell short of expectations, pressured by China, Russia accepted to be a partner, they fitted a better engine, the Al-31. SIBNIA ( Chaplygin Siberian Aeronautical Research Institute / SIBNIA) did some design work for the Chinese.
China recieved assistance in radar, weaponry and aerodynamics by Russian and Israeli engineers.
If you want to accept this version that goes very well with Western claims of Israel passing that technology, well is up to you.
but is more less what the Russians say
Russian sources claim at least 500 J-10s will be built, and up to 1500 if everything goes on schedule
MiG-23MLDAnd that’s once again the point !! Not the number of links or “sources” is important but the quaility and even if the Russians tell there that they are the co-developer of the J-10 that need not to be true !
I’m not denying that the Russians gave great help on that project especially as You point out it’s powered by a Russian engine.
I’m angry about that always repeated false argument that the J-10 is a Lavi clone … and that false statement doesn’t become reality only because some Russian links say so !
Deino 😡
man you can opt for one thing do not believe the Russians, continue thinking the Israelies have nothing to do with the plane however the Russians say the J-10 is a more complex aircraft than the IAI lavi.
The only thing i can say to you is that is what the Russian sources say i can give you more sources is you want.
MiG-23MLDYou claim these russian “articles”(which are user opinions) are factual yet their creditbilty is the same as a opinion poll. Ill give you an example
North Korea holds a opinion poll that the worlds worst, most evil country country is america. Some of the people have been to america and say its crap
The poll shows that everyone voted yes, What exactly does that mean even if everyone from a particular country agrees?
Are suggesting you have proof what radar the J-10 uses?
Apart from the cannon, what weapons have been featured on the J-10 which are of russian origin
aerodynamics is a broad defination and can mean anything. I would like some proof and something speific
If Ukraine helped, that makes it one more source that russia couldn’t ahve used
man please give me more intelligent examples, you even created a thread where yakoplev says preliminary design consultant for a trainer, you think that 10 years ago they would not do the same for a more complex aircraft like is the J-10? you have a Russian engine in the J-10, radar proposals for the J-10 weaponry proposals, helmet mounted sights based on ukrainian tech in few words Russia has helped a lot in the J-10.
MiG-23MLDCan you name some then? :rolleyes:
radar weaponry aerodynamics even Ukraine helped
MiG-23MLDI think You still don’t understand and that’s always the problem with YOU !!
If You like You could give us hundreds of these links that won’t change anything. Only because something is written on an obscure Russian internet-page that doesn’t make it true !!!!
As such I only can quote:
If I would write on such a page that there are Martians on moon or that the MiG-25 is the ancestor of the F-15 … or the Concorde a clone of the Tu-144 … or was it vice versa ?? … that won’t change anything on the facts.
You could find any argument in the internet for any opinion You would like to proof and that’s the reason why internet sources are only treated with care as a real “source” especially in science !It’s the main reason why internet sources are so difficult to judge for their credibility: The quantity of sources isn’t a relevant argument for reliability; only the quality is. One quality source can disprove a hundred false internet links. And as there are hardly any open or official sources on the PLA, the best way is to rely on Chinese articles, pictures, and posters as they are closest and are best positioned to the actual thing … and surely not a Russian (or an US page like FAS.org). Especially this is the main problem with the J-10: Once one argument or “fact” is published in the net, several other “sources” only copy and paste these facts without any reflection what might be possible or true. … I think that has been written here already several times !
Cheers, Deino 😉
No man you are wrong, first we are not talking about subjectivity or reliability, we are talking what is the Russian opinion about the J-10 and you forget also that the Russians did develop that aircraft too, it is not the same with a German or French or Brazilian or what ever the source because the Russians are already acknowledged as have worked on the J-10 program.
I do not care you think the links are false or unreliable, i am only interested in what the vast majority of Russian articles claim about the J-10.
there is only one thing you and all the other posters holding the same opinion can say and it is the Russians are lying no more, you say that because you have no Russian sources proving your domestic development account that claims there is no relation between the J-10 and Lavi, in few words that is a very bad defense of your sources
It is frankly amazing that even the J-10 uses the Russian Al-31, and you still claim the Russian will pour lies on the internet
Lyulka was deeply involved with Chengdu and that also means at the technical level, you see several Russian reports claiming the Israelies were working along side the Chinese.
Russia`s involvement goes beyond the engine and that is a known fact but you still denied what any russian reports say.
Another source reporting about Lyulka and the J-10 it claims each AL-31 costs USD $3 million dollars
http://scripts.online.ru/misc/spacenews/00/09/21_803.htm
MiG-23MLDThe first picture we ever had of the J-10 was a obsure model showing a cone intake featuring a F-16 style wings and a canopy very different from the LAVI. The picture can be located at chinese military aviation
Why do you keep on giving me russian links, apart from the fact that the information is inaccurate (as well as a good deal of their pictures) i cant read russian (I only read their basic english and know its wrong)
NOR DO I TRUST ANY RUSSIAN SITES ABOUT CHINA
I am not interested if you believe the Russian or not, i am only interested that you can see what they say, this is important because since they were partners in the J-10 program, they know the project very well, you complaigned about one article but i am showing you that the Russian articles claim the IAI Lavi-J-10 connection and by the way they talked about a real aircraft powered by an WP-13 engine not an aerodynamic model, read the articles later you say what ever remember the Russian indeed know the J-10 program very well because they indeed took part in the development of the J-10
http://www.army.lv/index.php?s=726&id=3049 .
check this other link they claim the J-10 was based upon the IAI Lavi
MiG-23MLDI would presume that was the failed J-9 project, the predecessor to the J-10
NO that was the IAI Lavi first clone, it was a J-10 very early prototype
http://www.chinadata.ru/plaaf_ttd.htm read this other source
MiG-23MLDThey lie because it is a good and entertaining story to tell.
The US Senate and Congress would be telling the same story if there were any truth in it.
The US would not stop Israel from building the Lavi and then turn around and keep perfectly quiet while the Israelies sold the same plane to China. The idea is ludicrous.
Were not the americans claiming the IAI lavi was transfered to China? read this article and you will see the Russians claim the Israelies sold the technology in fact they give you a very detailed history of how the first documentation, what institutes in China were in charge and even a failed prototype that was powered by a R-13/WP-13 however the aircraft was insatisfctory remember China had no engine in the class of the AL-31 in the 1990s
MiG-23MLDThe Russians are also very good liars, they have a track record on it. A Chinese report there is no actual crashes on the J-10 at all, other than Internet myth. There was a near crash in June 2000, the episode of which was actually displayed in China’s national television, as the pilot was commended for saving the aircraft. While the J-10 was never mentioned in name, it was the plane shown in TV.
There is no need for the Russians to lie. that is not a national russian aircraft they do not care, also it was not in the Soviet Times but in Yeltsin`s, there are more reason for China to lie
MiG-23MLDConsidering that you linked us to a site whos only pictures are paintings and one PS’ed gripen. I wouldn’t consider it accurate, their source is also dated 1999
Well if you want more sources here we go
http://imp.lg.ua/~user/pf.php?url=http://paralay.narod.ru/j10.html
http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fighter/j10.html
http://www.bestavia.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=552&Itemid=37
MiG-23MLDHere is the contradiction. Why are the Israelis helping then if the Chinese made up their own FBW. The FBW is the key element for this type of aircraft to fly because active delta canardsa very unstable aircraft, more than an F-16’s. If the Chinese had accessed FBW from Pak F-16s, or FBW for Su-27s, they would have gotten only an analog system. But where did they get a fully digital, quadruplex two channel fly by wire system?
With so many changes in the J-10 design, the Lavi’s original design was a failure. But the Israelis may have passed on knowledge on other things, mainly electronics and avionics. From 1995 on, China was suddenly knowing how to make digitial FBW, GPS navigation, digital HUD displays and MFDs, slotted planar arrays with multiple target TWS, laser guidance, and even helmet sighting system. There was an immense qualitative leap in their technology circa 1990, and when the first Zhuhai show opened in 1998 that was displaying all that stuff.
The IAI Lavi first was not a failure the aircraft for the 1980s was one of the most advanced however the Chinese wanted even a better aircraft.
The IAI Lavi also had great number of technologies made in the US, this limited the Israelies, niether China or Israel were capable enough in the early 1990s to go alone and design the J-10, the loss of the experimetal airplane is very documented in Russian sources.
They worked with the first experimental prototypes also you have to see what degree of confidence all of these three parts had and what technologies were willing to pass, Russia for example denied the AL-31 license.
MiG-23MLDHe picked a J-10B precisely because it is convenient. The original J-10 prototypes are single-seaters that looked far less like the Lavi.
The inane arguments from Strevitel/Mig23 is that a supposed “design” on a piece of paper makes the J-10 Israeli while the massive infrastructure and personnel of the Chinese industry that actually built the J-10 doesn’t make the J-10 Chinese :rolleyes:
Why doesn’t the Lavi fly in the Israeli air force if it is a worthwhile design? It can’t fly in the Israeli air force and yet it can fly in China?!? What kind of stupidity is that?
If someone like Strevitel can find out Israel’s supposed betrayal of the US by passing on the Lavi then why can’t Congress? Every Lavi is accounted for and in Israel. If there were transfer of this plane — which is dependent on American tech not available to China — then Israel would be brought to hearings before the US Senatorial and Congressional committees.
Are we to believe that Strevitel has more intelligence at his disposal than the US government? Sorry, that’s completely stupid.
This is where internet stupidity go wild. A poster like Strevitel is supposed to know more than the intelligence arms of the US government and designs on paper are more important than the massive infrastructure that actually builds the aircraft :rolleyes:
Tigershark
Do you read Russian?
начале 1990-х годов в Китае развернулись работы по созданию истребителя нового поколения, по своему боевому потенциалу приближающегося к таким самолетам, как «Рафаль», EF2000 или МиГ-29М. Разумеется, столь сложную задачу в КНР могли решить лишь в кооперации с зарубежными фирмами, владеющими наиболее современными технологиями самолетостроения. При создании этой машины возник, пожалуй, наиболее необычный международный симбиоз, объединяющий китайских, российских и израильских специалистов
here the Russian article claims the J-10 is a product of Russian , Israeli and Chinese designers
За основу конструкции нового китайского истребителя был взят израильский самолет IAI «Лави», работы над которыми в Израиле были прекращены под давлением США в 1987 году.
Первая информация о новом китайском истребителе появилась в открытой печати в октябре 1994 года, когда со ссылкой на американскую космическую разведку было сообщено, что в Чэнду строится самолет, своими очертаниями и размерами напоминающий истребитель Еврофайтер EF2000 или Дассо «Рафаль»
.
here they claim the IAI Lavi was the base of the J-10 check like Crobato is saying they said the J-10 was modified based upon the European fighters Rafale and Eurofighter
They also say the americans knew about the J-10 thanks to satellite photos
За основу конструкции нового китайского истребителя был взят израильский самолет IAI «Лави», this means the J-10 was based upon the IAI Lavi
MiG-23MLDI don’t think modern fighter jet development is oonsidered “History”
The only “Historians” who deal in this stuff are war nerds taking a guess.
Give it a couple decades, this’ll be a little more revealed.
I think you guys are getting GoldenDragons arguements wrong, he never argued that Chinese planes such as the J-10 were purely indigenous, rather, he states that China has a very modern and very effective infrastructure for the design, manafacture, and maintence of planes. If that infrastructure requires foreign engineers to boost the effort of indigenous design programs, then it will do so.
That is, what I believe, GoldenDragons argument is.
The question is why the Russians admit the Israeli involvement in the J-10 or why even Russian aerodynamic research intitutes claim Israeli involvement?
If the Russians would not claim what they claim i guess the Israeli involvement would easily be considered just an urban legend.
The Russians were there, worked in China, were deeply involved in the J-10 program in fact they did help to design the J-10, it means the J-10 in part is a Russian product like the Ching kuo is american, i believe the Russians because they were there and they designed many features of the J-10.
The Russians claim the J-10 is a joint product of Israeli, Russian and Chinese designers
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