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MiG-23MLD

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  • in reply to: American Sukhoi #2594887
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    That explains why the US wouldn’t need to acquire one NOW…but what about 10 or 15 years ago?

    SOC

    During the cold war things were different but after 1991 the USSR imploded and even before the USSR allowed the former former GDR MiG-29 fall into NATO hands.

    But see that willingly the US has shown pictures of their MiGs and England has done the same even the pictures of the Molvodan MiGs.

    I do not believe utterly despite i think there is a very high posibility they have a Su-27 that the US adquired one but i found extrange they show Mig-29 pictures but not their Su-27 why? basicly both aircraft have the same level of technology

    I do not believe your theory they did not evaluate the MiG-29 from Moldova the real reasons they have now those MiG-29 in Museums is because the MiG-29 in 2006 is an old aircraft specially those built in the early 1980s.

    in reply to: American Sukhoi #2594911
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    Now, you might be right. Back around 1995 or so? That’s another story. And I already described those engagements to you, they weren’t true ACMI engagements and were not all that fascinating from an evaluation standpoint.

    So all the Su-27SKs in China aren’t a threat to anyone then?

    SOC

    In 2006 the US knows perfectly the real capabilities of the Su-27 and by exception of some avionics which the Su-27 from Ukraine do not have the Su-27 is a well know aircraft, in 2006 Russia even sells to any one even nations like Mexico which is a US ally and the US easily can ask them to allow to inspect their Su-27s and even fly them against their F-15s

    in reply to: American Sukhoi #2594918
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    You’re missing the point. Those programs are almost always classified, and if they are (like every other evaluation program involving Russian hardware like HAVE DRILL), you can’t just announce their existance all of a sudden. Where were the Russian press reports tlaking about the USAF operating MiG-21s back in the 60s and 70s? They didn’t report it, so I guess all the photos and declassified documentation released since then must all be fabricated, right?

    I figured out the problem. If the USA evaluated the Su-27 in depth, they’d be in a position to develop systems and technologies guaranteeing they’d be able to blow one out of the sky far easier than anyone else. And I bet the idea of the USA holding the keys to the FLANKERs demise just really irks you, doesn’t it? You just don’t want to face the reality that the USA might just have figured out all the secrets of the Su-27…

    Man the US does not need any of that now because they know what the Su-27 can do to an F-15 thanks to Russian pilots who flew to Alaska and Virgina in the US in the 1990s and shot down F-15 in mock combat.

    Second an old Su-27 is not a real threat, it`s avionics are even inferior to an F-15C and very very out dated with an F-15I or F-15E so they won`t learn any thing new

    in reply to: American Sukhoi #2594920
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    That doesn’t count, they reported it AFTER it was detained. Did they report the sale before the aircraft was detained? Because that’s just what you’re assuming they’d have done in the case of anyone in the world selling an Su-27 to the USA.

    SOC

    Please do not play, you assume the Russians do not track these kind of sales but they do you have pictures of MiG-29 being shipped into a C-17 so why you think they do not track these kind of sales?

    See that you can fly one Su-27 just by going to Russia an paying some few thousend dollars, the USAF has enough money to pay an entire course 😎

    in reply to: American Sukhoi #2594939
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    But it’s only ONE PROTOTYPE

    But then again this is what most of the RuAF Su-27s are right now.

    No foreign visiting aircraft was spotted over Area 51. EVER.

    Moldova never had any Su-27, just the mentioned MiG-29s.

    Let`s go for this, here is a Russian article about an Ukranian MiG-29 detained in Hong Kong, this was intended for a US museum but had no export Licence.

    See that they detected the MiG-29 http://www.inforos.ru/?id=12112

    The Russians reported and showed pictures of the Moldovan MiG-29 being shipped, http://www.strizhi.ru/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1126101967/60 http://www.strizhi.ru/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1111750974/60 reported a MiG-29 smuggled, pitted Su-27s in the US and Russia versus F-15s and even offer for civilians and any one flights in a Su-27 for a few thousend US dollars even you can fly one click the linkhttp://www.flymig.com/aircraft/

    this is a question if you can go to Russia pay some thousend US dollars and fly in a Su-27 and even dogfight with a MiG-29 as a civilian why you think the Russians consider now in 2006 a super fighter ?

    The Su-27 has become even a tourist attraction, yes It has become a tourists attraction, the SU-27 can be flown even by civilians so why you think the US needs to keep secret they own a Su-27?

    in reply to: American Sukhoi #2595206
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    Makes sense, it was delivered in October of 2002.

    SOC

    I think there are no reasons why they will hide the Su-27? why? well in 2006 Russia has better aircraft than the Su-27, the MiG-29OVT is quit more advanced to say the least, you are basicly basing your assumption in a Dark program, in 1980 well i could believe it but in 2006 the US sells F-16s to a potential enemy such as is Pakistan which can easily transfer the F-16 to China.

    The basic Su-27 that the US might have gotten if it got it is basicly a 1980s Flanker and no more advanced than an F-15A in avionics and no more advanced than a MiG-29 Fulcrum A in weaponry and maneouvrability.

    As early as 1992 the Su-27 was tested and flown by Western Pilots, it was pitted against the F-15 and Mirage 2000 and basicly beat them.

    The transfer won`t be hidden to the Russian secret service and known to aviation enthusiats as we are, i agree there are some western reports that make think at least one Su-27 was adquiered but these do not go beyond gossips or sketchy reports, the pictures are too blur, do not prove they are Su-27 visting the US, however it seems one US company got one Su-27 from Ukraine but we can not see the aircraft and you need to justify that lack of pictorial evidence claiming it is a DARK PROGRAM come on 😉 .

    The SU-27 is basicly an old aircraft and the one they might have gotten is an early example not a Su-35BM or Su-30MKI so explain why they need to hide a former soviet republic like Moldova sold a Su-27 to the US when the Russians have reported the sale of Moldovan MiG-29s and even have pictures of the aircraft being load into a C-17?

    In 2006 aircraft like the I-21 or known as PAK AF is really an aircraft to keep secret.

    To tell you the true i do not discard the possibility but still i do not see enough evidence to justify the American Su-27 existance

    in reply to: American Sukhoi #2595811
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    I looked at the Ukraine transfers as officially reported to the UN, it doesn’t say if it’s a military or civilian receiver tho.

    1 SU-27 to China in 2004
    1 SU-27 to Eritrea in 2003
    3 SU-27 to Ethiopia in 2003
    1 SU-27P to United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in 2001

    Those are the officially reported ones between 2004-1993. http://disarmament2.un.org/UN_REGISTER.NSF/

    Btw, if the US did get a SU-27 by unofficial means a reason to keep it quiet can be to protect the seller, as they might face sanctions from Russia etc. I find this unlikely, I don’t think any nation would be interested in risking a relationship to Russia just to sell the US a jet under the table. So if it happened I would say it did so by official means.

    Well i have to admit it is very probable the US got one Su-27, but still i think the gossip state of that sale gives it a degree of unlikeliness what it is interesting that we know about the sale and the Russsians do not 😀 that we are reporting but the Russians are not hehehehehe.

    I agree there is a high possibility almost a fact but without any good picture i won`t be totally and utterly convinced.

    Why because is not possible the Russians do not know but we do and i have not read any Russian article about a US purchase of a Su-27 up to now.

    in reply to: American Sukhoi #2596166
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    http://www.combataircrafts.com/su27takeoff.jpg

    It would have been one of the former Soviet republics shortly after 1991 if the stories are correct. They weren’t all friendly with Russia back then.

    I doubt that story already after 10 years the media would had pictures like these, if they got it in 2005 or even 2006 i would belive that hypothesis as plausible, but after 10 years i totally doubt it

    http://www.combataircrafts.com/su27f18.jpg

    http://photo.sohu.com/2004/02/24/15/Img219181500.jpg

    in reply to: American Sukhoi #2596273
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    -If it wasn’t a Russian FLANKER that was acquired, Russia may or may not know about it.

    -If it was acquired covertly, why would you see a report about it in the Western press.

    The USAF obviously feels differently.

    It’s one thing to face off against an aircraft in mock combat. It’s another thing entirely to be able to have one to play with yourself. You can explore the entire combat envelope, take it apart and see what makes it tick, and get to know every single detail about a potential adversary. Lets say, for example, that the N001 has four radar modes. Your adversary in mock combat only employs one of them. If you have your own FLANKER you can explore the other three modes yourself, and take the time to test the radar against various jamming sources. Conversely you can take the FLANKER’s jamming gear and evaluate it against a number of your systems to gauge the effects.

    Not by your logic it can’t. There’s no Russian press report associated with that picture.

    The main question is who gave the Flanker?
    China? India? Vietnam? venezuela? Syria? Belarus? Ukraine? Algeria? the only possible candidate is Ukraine and that would have been reported

    you are claiming that a Flanker B, a Su-27 built in the 1980s is a big threat worthed to be adquiered secretly? i do not think the Su-27 can be purchase easily by the US since the vast majority of Flanker Users in the developing world are not US friendly in terms of weaponry, Russia would had simply reported the sale and Belarus is the Cuba of Europe.

    Ukraine perhaps shipped one Su-27 or two, Kazakhstan is another posible source but they are quit cozy with Russia and China.

    The posiblity that aircraft is a Su-27 well is high, it`s source is unclear but the reason it was flown in a US airfield clear. from my humble opinion we can not claim that it is a US owned Su-27 yet despite there is a chance it is though

    in reply to: American Sukhoi #2596294
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    I’m aware of that event, that took place out over the sea while FLANKERs were visiting Langley AFB like I said. And yes, Su-27s have made regular airshow appearances in the USA, like I said as well. And then there’s the FLANKER flying around over Groom Lake, which by itself means it isn’t being flown by a Russian pilot. That’s three separate events right there, why the confusion?

    No what i meant is we can not say or at least me i have not seen any Russian report or even a western one confirming the US adquiered Su-27s, the picture is not clear is quit blur it seems to be a Su-27, if it is a Su-27s it can be a Russian Air Force Su-27 on a visit.

    From my point of view there is no need to hide the fact the US has a Su-27, because they already have Russian fighters, second they already have pitted their fighters with Russian Su-27s and even Indian Su-30s so why they need a Flanker when they have already evaluated the type without need of owning it?

    http://sistemadearmas.sites.uol.com.br/ca/iffmig29f18.jpg
    source:
    http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/comparison-f16-f18-su30-1.html

    in reply to: American Sukhoi #2596300
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    You’re referring to the Su-27s that visited Langley AFB, right? Beyond that, the same two Sukhoi company FLANKERs that appeared at the 1989 Paris Air Show did make the US airshow circuit at one point. They appeared in Oklahoma City, for one.

    What this has to do with the USAF testing Russian-made fighter aircraft in controlled airspace over Groom Lake is beyond me though, because you do not fly inside that airspace unless you belong there.

    FLANKERs have visited the USA. So have Tu-95s (they visited Barksdale AFB in Louisiana), MiG-29s, Il-76s, An-124s…and that in no way means that the USAF didn’t manage to covertly acquire a FLANKER or two to evaluate.

    The US evaluated the Su-27s how? well with a Mock combat with them, they did it not in an airshow as you might think but in a US military base Why? well they did not want to get embarrased by the Su-27 defeating the F-15 in US Soil and that being shown by US media outlets

    They F-15 and Su-27s fought far away from the civilian eyes and plane spotters

    in reply to: American Sukhoi #2596320
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    As far back as late 1990 or sometime in 1991 if I recall correctly.

    There’s no proof it is a visiting FLANKER either. The location where the photos were taken would, however, seem to discount that possibility.

    That was never a secret.

    SOC

    The Su-27s Flanker and F-15s Eagle were flown to US and Russian air fields and by that means military air fields

    http://www.wpeu.net/photo_news/editor/UploadFile/2005111215324428.jpg

    http://www.militaryimages.net/photopost/data/521/8DF-ST-93-04681.jpeg

    in reply to: American Sukhoi #2596323
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    And we know about a lot of the older MiGs why? Because those programs (like HAVE DRILL and HAVE DOUGHNUT) have been partially or completely declassified. You’ve got no idea how the DoD classification system works. Here’s a good example: the A-12 was retired in 1968. It wasn’t publicly acknowledged until the mid-80’s, even though the SR-71A was fully visible to the general public from the get-go. The first A-12 photo (outside of some John Andrews shots of spraylat-covered A-12s in open storage at Palmdale) wasn’t released until 1982. There wasn’t really any point to keeping it secret at that point, but that’s how the system works.

    Here are the pictures when the Su-27 were flown to the US

    http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/pix/mix_f15_su27-2.jpg

    Yes SOC, but remember some aircraft were brought from former Soviet or Warsaw pact states and the Su-27 was flown to the US not long time ago so Russian Flankers have been in the US, first the picture is not clear and second there is not prove it is not a visitor Su-27, the Russians also have intelligence systems and they also track these kind of sales in fact check Russian internet pages and you will find pictures and articles about the moldovan MiG-29s
    Расширяющиеся в последнее время контакты летчиков западных стран с их коллегами из России (1995 год — авиабаза Эльмендорф, штат Аляска, 1996-й — аэродром Саваслейка) позволили подтвердить справедливость такого вывода. В качестве аргументов приводятся, в частности, результаты учебных боев истребителей F-15 и Су-27, проведенных в мае 1993 года на авиабазе Ланглей (штат Вирджиния), где американские и русские летчики вели их «один на один» и «пара на пару», а также многочисленные международные авиашоу.

    http://www.soldiering.ru/avia/file/airfight.php

    In the last russian text, they talk about the exchange visits the US and Russia had in the 1990s decade, one was to Alaska and the other to the state of Virginia there was a visit to Russia in the base of Savasleykaya, where they had mock combat and proved the Su-27 to be superior to the F-15 i see no need for the US of buying Su-27 when the can pit their F-15s with the russians for free

    http://www.soldiering.ru/avia/file/f15_su27.jpg

    lest remeber the Russians flown their Su-27 around the world in the 1990s

    in reply to: American Sukhoi #2596335
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    1. You mean a Byelorussian link, not a Russian link, because they didn’t come from Russia.

    2. If we’re going to play the “it’s only real if you can show me a photo” game, show me a picture of a MiG-25P cockpit with the airspeed indicator showing Mach 3+ speed.

    Since when was COPE INDIA “needed”? We exercise with friendly nations all the time. Also, are the Su-30K’s avionics and performance 100% identical to those of a standard-production Su-27?

    It’s ALWAYS been done that way. Has the US announced that it has an SA-11 TELAR in its possession? because there’s one sitting down in Texas on a range outside the Army base in El Paso…

    Why would Belarus necessarily inform Russia that it sold an Su-27 or two? Ever consider that they were offered enough money from the USA that they had no problem keeping it secret?

    SOC

    The Su-27 was flown to the US several times and the US and Russia had mock combat flights between Su-27s and F-15s, not long time ago, the US and Russia usually fly their aircraft to each other air bases MAKS 2005 had a B-1B, a F-16 and a F-15s

    here is the F-15 at MAKS 2005

    http://lenta.ru/articles/2005/08/19/exibit/f151.jpg here is the F-16 http://lenta.ru/articles/2005/08/19/exibit/f167.jpg here is B-1B http://lenta.ru/articles/2005/08/19/exibit/b1b6.jpg

    There is no need to keep secret a Su-27 in the US because already they have MiG-29s, MiG-23s, MiG-21s, MiG-15, Mi-24 and several other equipment of Russian origin.

    The picture does not discard the fact that aircraft if in reality is a Su-27, is a Russian flown and owned Su-27 visitor in the US

    Source of the pictures http://lenta.ru/articles/2005/08/19/exibit/

    here is a Su-27 in canadian air space http://www.geocities.com/smalnbrg/abbotsford93/a93int3.jpg

    http://www.geocities.com/smalnbrg/abbotsford93/a93int3.jpg

    in reply to: American Sukhoi #2596436
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    The Su-27 were from Belarus and were delivered inside a C-5.

    Okay show a picture of the C-5 being loaded or a russian link, specially when Belarus is so close linked with Russia and the Belarussian leader is called the last dictator in Europe by the West :rolleyes:

Viewing 15 posts - 2,581 through 2,595 (of 2,930 total)