So you are in need of further links at least to make-up your mind about. I am not intrested to do much scanning from sources to convince someone like “Flogger” with further details, just to keep myself busy.
When you do your ‘Googeling’ about that including Google Earth, when no good map at hand, you are in need of further details about that incident.-Where did those Italian Tornados started their mission. (distance involved)
-The mishap about refuelling failures. (related to distance)
-The intended targets of the Tornados were in the Tallil/Nasiriyah-region (15 nm NW of border you find Ar Rumayalah Southwest AB
-The captured crew-member was shown to the international press in Basra.
Even that fact could not have gone unnoticed by the maker of that Russian website. But the lack of details there speak for themselves.Despite that, it is helpfull always to have a good map and understanding about that. Basra for example is no more than 40 km from the Kuwaiti-border.
The distance between Bagdad and Basra is 400 km.
The distance between Al Dhafra Air Base in the UAE and Basra is ….?That all has nothing to do with ‘farmers logic’. At least, when the Russian side claimed such a MiG-23 kill near Bagdad. In that very sense that claim is nothing more than just an unsubstanted claim or lie, even when we declare GR1 as typo!
hehehehehe 😀
All are your suppositions, first you start with a Refuelling Mishap, no range and the distance is no range hehehehehe like they never attacked Bagdad lack of range Now we have lack of range, very likely Bagdad never was attacked 😀 because there was lack of range yeah yeah.
The Iraqi very likely according to you have to take all their POW to Bagdad they did not take the POW to strategic targets as Humans shields 😀
You say I won`t google because i do not need hehehehehehehe some one like Flogger is not worthed of neither Flex do your home work hehehehehehehehe
Prove what you are saying with a BBC, CNN or IP release or at least TASS or Pravda 😀 believe me am sure you have them do not you?
By the way he appeared on TV several days after been shot down
January 17
CAPTAIN MAURIZIO COCCIOLONE — Italian Air Force, Italy
On January 12, 1991, Italian Air Force Captain Maurizio Cocciolone flew a Tornado GR1 fighter/bomber in the first wave of strikes on military targets in Iraq and Kuwait. During the strike, Cocciolone’s Toronado was shot down.
Cocciolone was captured by Iraqi forces. In all, seven Allied airmen shot down and captured in the first waves of strikes.
On January 20, Cocciolone appeared on Iraqi television with other Coalition POWs. Cocciolone appeared to be speaking under extreme duress. Also on January 20, the Iraqis stated that their POWs would be used as “human shields” to protect their important military targets from strikes by Allied
forces.
Cocciolone was captured by Iraqi forces. In all, seven Allied airmen were
shot down captured in the first waves of strikes.
On January 20, 1991, Cocciolone appeared on Iraqi television in an apparent
propaganda effort by his Iraqi captors. First the voice interviews, followed
by the videotapes, were released by Cable News Network (CNN). Cocciolone
appeared to be speaking under extreme duress. Also on January 20, the Iraqis
stated that their POWs would be used as “human shields” to protect their
important military targets from strikes by Allied forces.
British Prime Minister John Major immediately charged that Iraq’s treatment
of Allied POWs was “wholly objectionable” and against the Geneva accords for
treatment of prisoners of war. U.S. Vice President Dan Quail said that Iraqi
leaders would be held “personally” responsible for the obvious mistreatment
of Allied POWs.
On March 3, 1991, a smiling Maurizio Cocciolone greeted cameras when he was
released by the Iraqis. According to U.S. national media, all non-U.S.
Coalition POWs except one Kuwaiti, were released by March 6
. Most had been held at Basra, and reported being well-treated
As you can see Sens MOSt of the POW were held in Basra Not shot down in Basra as you claim
Among the things you are wrong is the fact the Italian Tornado shot down in 1991 did indeed refuel, that is a fact even acknowledged by the Italian web pages, many claimed it was shot down over the Iraqi desert.
When he was interviewed on Iraqi TV he said his mission was to attack a target on southern Iraq
From the Russian account of http://www.airwar.ru
войны сбила в районе Багдада итальянский истребитель-бомбардировщик “Торнадо”.
We can translate в районе Багдада as well as in a region in the vecinity of Baghdad something that is curious is some webpages as you claim he was shot down basicly in Kuwait therefore rendering the Russian account as unaccurate, claiming the Tornado was shot down by AAA most likely.
However some webpages claim he was shot down in southern Iraq, but we have something funny many claim he was shot down just 20km north west of Kuwait but check this Map
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/gulf/images/kuwait-map.jpg
How was he going to parachute just 20km from Kuwait city and been shot down and captured in Southern Iraq in the Iraqi desert at the same time? 😀
Check that basicly they say he was shot down in Kuwait according to this pageItalian pilot
check that in this webpage they claim he was shot down in Kuwait basicly and at the same time in the Iraqi desert just by looking the Map 20km from Kuwait city is still Kuwait
So you have several contradicctions. first iraqi desert at just 20km north of Kuwait city? captured in the Iraqi desert at just 20 km of Kuwait city? was his target in southern Iraq or in Kuwait?
Here is excerpt from the page:
Bellini, chaffa – chaffa”
“Cocciolone, sto chaffando – sto chaffando” – “Cocciolone, vai così”
“Bellini, Eject – Eject – Eject”!
Il Tornado viene colpito dalla contraerea, e i due membri dell’equipaggio si lanciano con i loro sedili
Martin Baker MK-10A
atterrando nella piena oscurità del deserto Iracheno
If i am not wrong Chaffando means use chaff flare counter measures so why you need that for AAA? of course it is for the radar but seems more for a missile
Duh Flogger. Please switch on. Most of AFM can recognise this image that you are promoting from 2006. This is very simple stuff! So much for the accuracy of those Russian websites that you are constantly promoting as the truth. This is yet another stunning example of your naivety.
http://www.inforos.ru/?id=10601
The images of that Apache that crashed due to brown out were from 2003!
Do some simple research on AFM using the search engine. Caught out again Flogger! Will you be contacting the Russian website webmaster to correct his error? Ask him why he/she is using an image from 2003 to promote claims of an Apache shot down in 2006?
very embarrassing for you Flogger, but click on the following link from 2003. On page 2 you will see the image of the Apache that crashed due to brownout.
Page 1
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=11206
Page 2
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=11206&page=2&pp=30
You’ll have to do very much better than this Flogger!
Image insert is from the 2003 thread.
So what you have proven no AH-64 was shot down? you have three differences in each picture, first in one picture the tail rotor is facing up while in the other picture is facing down and the weapons on the wing pylon are different and one horizontal tail rotor is damaged
In this picture the AH-64`s horizontal stabilizer is damaged, has different weapons on the wing pylon and the tail rotor is facing down
the tail Rotor facing up and different weapons on the wing pylon
So even if the picture is old what are you going to prove that the US had two accident? :rolleyes:
By the way even ABC news and CNN reported that information so what excuse you are going to say? The fact is a SA-7 shot down a AH-64D on January 16 2006
here is a list of Helicopter shot down
Helicopters
April 1, 2006 – AH-64D Apache from 4-4th Avn shot down southwest of Baghdad, killing the two crewmen.
January 16, 2006 – AH-64D Apache from 1-4th Avn shot down north of Baghdad, probably by a SA-7, killing the two pilots.
January 13, 2006 – OH-58D Kiowa from 1-10th Avn shot down near the al-Sukar district of Mosul, killing the two pilots.
January 7, 2006 – UH-60L Black Hawk from 1-207th Avn crashes near Tal Afar, killing 12 people on board.
December 26, 2005 – AH-64 Apache from 1-4th Avn collides with another Apache near Baghdad, killing two pilots on one of the helicopters.
November 2, 2005 – AH-1W SuperCobra 165321 from HMLA-369 shot down near Ramadi, killing the two Marines on board.
August 30, 2005 – An OH-58D(I) Kiowa 90-0037 from 4-3rd ACR crashed in Iraq.
August 12, 2005 – AH-64 Apache crashes near Kirkuk, injuring the two pilots.
July 2, 2005 – CH-47D Chinook 85-24335 from C Company/159th Avn destroyed in a fire on the ground at Ramadi Camp.
June 27, 2005 – AH-64D Apache from 3-3d Avn shot down near Taji, killing the two pilots.
May 31, 2005 – An Italian AB-412 helicopter crashes near Nasiriyah, killing the four soldiers on board.
May 26, 2005 – An OH-58D(I) Kiowa from 1-17th Cav is shot down near Baquba, killing the two crewmen.
May 21, 2005 – A CH-47D Chinook 85-24335 from B Company/4-123rd Avn crashes in Iraq due to failure of both engines. Five crewmen injured. [1]
January 28, 2005 – OH-58 Kiowa from 1-7th Cav crashes in Baghdad, killing the two crewmen.
January 26, 2005 – CH-53E Super Stallion 164536 from HMH-361 crashes in Al-Anbar province, killing 30 US Marines and one Navy sailor.
December 15, 2004 – A PZL W-3 Sokół crashes near Karbala due to pilots error; three Polish soldiers are killed and four injured.
December 9, 2004 – AH-64A Apache 91-0012 from A Company/1-151st Avn hit a UH-60L Black Hawk 82-23668 from N Company/4-278th ACR on the ground at a Mosul base, killing two soldiers and wounding four.
November 12, 2004 – UH-60A Black Hawk from 1-106th Avn shot down northest of Baghdad, wounding three of the four crew members.
November 11, 2004 – AH-1W SuperCobra 161021 from HMLA-169 was shot down by RPG and small arms fire near Fallujah. It was destroyed by Iraqi rebel forces, crew recovered intact. A second SuperCobra was damaged, but was recovered by US forces.
October 16, 2004 – Two OH-58 Kiowas from 1-25th Avn collide nearBaghdad, killing two soldiers and wounding two others.
September 23, 2004 – AH-64D Apache 5292 (B Company/1-227th Avn) crashed near Tallil AB, Iraq when pilot lost control following tail rotor problem.
September 21, 2004 – UH-60 Black Hawk crashes near Nasiriyah, wounding three crew members.
September 8, 2004 – CH-46E Sea Knight 153372 crashes 20 miles south of Fallujah; all four crew members survive.
August 11, 2004 – CH-53E Super Stallion 164782 from HMM-166 (Reinforced) crashes in the Al-Anbar province, killing two Marines and wounding three others (cf. DoD News Release No. 782-04).
August 5, 2004 – UH-1N Huey 160439 from HMM-166 shot down near Najaf; crew wounded.
July 19, 2004 – near Basra, a British Aérospatiale Puma crashes, killing one crewman and injuring two others.
June 24, 2004 – AH-1W SuperCobra 163939 shot down in Fallujah; pilots safe.
June 13, 2004 – OH-58 Kiowa crashes north of Baghdad; both pilots safe.
April 13, 2004 – MH-53M Pave Low 5797 of 16th SOW/20th SOS crashes near Fallujah–three on board are wounded and a Marine is killed securing the crash site.
April 11, 2004 – Apache helicopter shot down near Baghdad, killing the two pilots.
April 7, 2004 – OH-58 Kiowa crashes near Baquba after being hit by ground fire; pilots rescued.
March 30, 2004 – Two AH-1W SuperCobras 163947 and 164595 of HMLA-775 collide near Al Taqaddum, Iraq; pilots rescued.
February 25, 2004 – OH-58D(R) Kiowa 97-0124 crashed in Iraq with 4-3rd ACR west of Baghdad, killing the two pliots.
January 25, 2004 – OH-58 Kiowa crashes near Mosul, both pilots killed (cf. DoD News Release no. 062-04).
January 23, 2004 – OH-58 Kiowa crashes near Mosul, both pilots killed (cf. DoD News Release no. 048-04).
January 13, 2004 – Apache from Fort Carson shot down near Habbaniyah; pilots rescued. [2]
January 8, 2004 – near Fallujah, UH-60 Black Hawk is shot down, killing 9 soldiers.
January 2, 2004 – near Fallujah, OH-58 Kiowa shot down, one soldier killed.
November 15, 2003 – Mosul, two UH-60 Black Hawks crash after coming under fire; 17 killed.
November 7, 2003 – near Tikrit, UH-60 Black Hawk shot down; six killed.
November 2, 2003 – near Fallujah, CH-47D Chinook 91-0230 of Detachment 1/F Company/106th Avn shot down; 16 soldiers killed.
October 30, 2003 – AH-64D Apache 86-9009 of 6-6th Cav crashed near Balad AAF, Iraq.
October 25, 2003 – near Tikrit, UH-60L Black Hawk crashes after reportedly being hit by ground fire, 5 soldiers injured.
October 23, 2003 – AH-64D Apache 86-8972 crashed in Iraq while approaching to land at Kirkuk. The APU clutch failed and started a fire. Aircraft landed safely but fuselage was almost completely burnt through.
September 2, 2003 – near Baghdad, one soldier killed as UH-60L Black Hawk rolls over.
August 28, 2003 – CH-47D Chinook 88-0098 from F Company/159th Avn written off in Iraq.
August 14, 2003 – AH-64A Apache of 1-14th Avn crashed in Iraq.
June 12, 2003 – near Baghdad, AH-64D Apache of 101st Avn helicopter shot down; pilots rescued.
May 19, 2003 – CH-46F Sea Knight 156424 of HMM-364 crashes, killing four Marines; another Marine drowns trying to rescue the crew.
May 9, 2003 – UH-60A Black Hawk 86-24507 of 571st Medical Company (AA) crashes into Tigris River, killing two pilots and crew chief.
April 30, 2003 – A Marine CH-53E Super Stallion 162486 of HMH-465 crashed near An Najaf. Crew escaped.
April 14, 2003 – A Marine AH-1W SuperCobra 163940 of MAG-39 crashes near Samarra, injuring both pilots.
April 8, 2003 – CH-46 Sea Knight crashes into the Mediterranean Sea while resupplying; all on board are rescued.
April 5, 2003 – AH-1T SeaCobra 161020 of HMLA-267 shot down; pilot dies.
April 2, 2003 – near Karbala, UH-60A Black Hawk of B Company/2-3rd Avn crashes, killing six soldiers.
March 31, 2003 – AH-64D Apache 84-24201 of C Company/1-3rd Avn crashes on landing in Iraq, injuring the two pilots.
March 30, 2003 – UH-1N Huey 160620 of HMLA-169 crashes; three die.
March 28, 2003 – Two AH-64D Apaches, 97-5032 (A Co) and 98-5068 (B Co) of 2-101st Avn crash in Iraq; one pilot injured.
March 27, 2003 – Apache helicopter shot down in southern Iraq.
March 27, 2003 – OH-58D Kiowa 95-0024 from C Troop/2-17th Cav crashes in Iraq.
March 24, 2003 – AH-64D Apache 85-25407 from C Company/1-227th Avn shot down; two pilots taken prisoner.
March 22, 2003 – Two Royal Navy ASaC.7 Sea Kings XV650 ‘CU-182’ and XV704 ‘R-186’ of 849 Squadron/A Flight collide, killing six British soldiers and one American.
March 20, 2003 – CH-46E Sea Knight 152579 of HMM-268 crashes, killing eight British soldiers and four Marines.
March 19, 2003 – MH-53M Pave Low 14993 of 20th SOS carrying special forces crashes in southern Iraq. No one is injured and it is later destroyed.
Dude!! The Apache in those photos crashed in 2003 during the war…and you’r posting about an incident that happened this year.
You confuse yourself…
That is a different AH-64 look at this picture from http://www.afa.org
Air force Magazine AH-64 crash 2003
There is an old Intelligence rough assessment maxim when monitoring contemporary rival national claims during a period of air combat:
” Divide claimed kills by three: multiply admitted losses by two”.
Those who are interested might like to investigate the Battle of Britain, Six Day war and Falklands claims ,at the time and now , for further validation of this law. .
Ground losses, accidents and Blue-on-Blues, are also never properly accounted for at the time. For example, when the “Battle of Britain” is fully checked it is seen that the opposing sides total actual aircraft losses from all causes were almost exactly even. The losses of a RAF aircraft on the ground were substantial and not put into the early public proclamations.
I would politely suggest that the more recent combats being touted here are still rather too close to the present for open analysis.
I guess in WWII the combat losses were more difficult to know due to the large numbers of aircraft built, if we remember only of Me-109 we get production numbers of around 30,000, but in the post war combat records the numbers are not as high and it is easier to guess a real number, wars such as Kosovo, the Bekka Valley or GWI basicly had relatively small numbers of aircraft so the combat losses are much easier to calculate accurately
Modern wars have also an extra outlet of Information basicly the internet
Here is an AH-64 downed in Iraq
From http://www.airforce.ru this is the original page war in iraq
Another Mi-8 downed in Chechnya
from http://sovsekretno.ru
And a picture of a MiG-25 shot down in the Caucasus from http://www.airwar.ru
MiG-25 shot down
Undoutedly Russian sources are worthed of credibility and much more in modern times due to the internet
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