First could anyone confirm to me wether flogger and mig-23MLD is the same dude? If he is then how come the mods are allowing one person to exist with 2 ID’s..? Secondly why dont just neglect his posts and carry on with the discussions at hand. There are far more inteligent and logical russian technology proponents such as flex and garry who are worthy of a long and intelligent discussion.

I will answer you your question, simply i have not two IDs and there is no more Flogger, besides that there is plenty of Russian webpages i recommend you to read, once you read them you will see i am not making up combat records simply i am using some Russian webpage`s information that you will find if you read them or some Russian TV programs i have watched.

It is interesting to see how many claim the Western combat records are unversaly accepted around the world as the only versions of what really happened, many forget that the western accounts are not universally accepted as the valid ones

I understand that the F-117 is not as stealthy as the US and particularly the US media says it is. The US media particularly blows everything out of proportion.

But again MAPO are not in the business of intelligence gathering. They would not know whether a MiG-29 shot down an F-117 or not.

The US has acknowledged the loss of an F-117 to a SAM and I think even the Serbs said it was due to an SA-3.

The testimony of some Russian engineers and vague internet rumours do not amount to a more credible source than US official government reports.

Dubya

The weapon that destroyed the acknowledged F-117 was a Russian weapon, besides Russian sources claimed several F-117 were damaged or kill, the question is simply the Serbs sent F-117 wreckage fragments to Russia.

The Russians know as much as the US DoD simply because their technology was used to destroy the famed F-117.

Well of course the Russians claim kills. It’s bad marketing not to (“Buy the latest MiG-29 – only shot down 12 or so times. No victories.”).

Anyhow my point is that the reason people believe American claims and not Russian one is due to political reasons.

I agree that kills should be confirmed by either physical proof or acknowledgment by the other side.

This is why I stated that Israel is a grey area. Israel is very secretive and will not acknowledge losses unless the enemy has physical proof. Syria on the other hand is even more secretive and has an authoritarian regime in power. So what happened over the skies of Lebanon is a mystery at best.

But the US on the other hand is relatively open and acknowledges losses when they occur. The number of helicopters shot down in Iraq and Afghanistan attests to this.

So I doubt that the Iraqis or Serbs shot down anymore aircraft than they did. Especially as they have no physcial proof of additional kills.

Dubya

People believe what they like and while there is no physical evidence two different accounts will have the same weight as evidence, if you check Russian acknowledged combat records you will see that they differ from Western ones, in the West of course such accounts have less credibility because there is preference for accounts that embelish the Western aircraft industry and it`s combat records.

Western authors prefer under estimate Russian aircraft due to a natural bias for their national aerospace Industry.

Here is an excerpt from http://www.airwar.ru where you can see in this account they claim a F-117 was shot down by a MiG-29 after been hit by a R-60, if you read the whole account you will see the Russians acknowlege MiG-29 have been shot down by F-16s and F-15s.

Настоящим шоком для Америки стало уничтожение на третьи сутки боевых действий самолета F-117A (летчик – капитан Кен Двили), сбитого в ночном воздушном бою в 32 км от Белграда югославским истребителем МИГ-29. По всей видимости, события разворачивались следующим образом: в 20.45 подполковник Гвоздень Дьюкач, перехватил и сбил малозаметный ударный самолет Локхид Мартин F-117A “Найтхоук”. По словам сербского летчика, “Стелс” был уничтожен ночью после его визуального обнаружения первой же ракетой класса “воздух – воздух” (очевидно, Р-60М с ТГС). По словам американского летчика, удар произошел совершенно неожиданно, без срабатывания системы оповещения, и он “не помнит, как рванул кольцо катапульты”. Семь часов спустя поисковая группа американских командос нашла летчика в укрытии, где он скрывался от югославской полиции

Serbian MiG-29 combat record

For a really objective Historian, and for that i mean not bias, will be hard to find the truth because many times losses are disguised as “accidents” or even as fraticides that has been one of the main reasons to do not acknowlege Russian kill claims.

If you ask for pictures well you will see that either the West or Russia will provide you with few.

Pictures are much better because they are hard evidence.

I think the answer is political. Russia was a dictatorship for a very long time. Syria still is while Serbia was under the power of nationalists for a very long time and started several wars.

This makes these countries highly suspect when it comes to information because it is clear that they had great controls on information and manipulated it at will. The Russians and Syrians still place great controls on information. Try taking some photos of a Syrian airbase and see how long it takes for them to arrest you.

Now the USA is also known for lying but it is hypothetically a democracy and is a lot more open than Russia, Syria or Serbia. Anyone in the world can track the serials of American aircraft and their location. You can generally visit American military facilities without a problem. American families also cry out when their relatives get killed. American investigative reporters love cover ups and it would not be hard to uncover huge losses.

Remember that the US has admitted to great losses in Iraq. They might lie about the political situation or make grandiose statements of improvements in Iraq, but we know American soldiers are dying and we know that helicopters are being written off.

When it comes to Israel, then it becomes a total gray area. Israel is a democracy that acts more like a dictatorship when it comes to security issues.

So we don’t really know what true losses the Israelis suffered in any war they’ve fought in. And it doesn’t help that teir enemies have been dictatorships as well. So it’s a case of claim versus counter claim.

But Israel has several advantages to back up it’s claims. Again it’s hypothetically a democracy, whereas Syria is not. It also has a track record of winning wars and maintaining truly elite military forces that utlise innovative tactics. The equipment it has used also has a good track record when used by other users be they the USA or Pakistan (F-16) or whatever. Syrian equipment such as the MiG-21 or MiG-23 is not that highly regarded in terms of performance.

The Democracy card is a total excuse and basicly a political one, in that case Germany`s ACES combat record in WWII should be a fabrication same should be Japan`s WWII record.

The F-4 for example has close to 800 losses in combat and nobody claims a terrible combat record, in fact the MiG-25 has had very few losses in combat, the main aircraft that has been shot down in the Arab-Israeli wars has been the MiG-21

The question is not of democracy because in times of war both sides used propaganda, the Democratic West uses propaganda as the Communist block did, the question is where is the author who writes the account from? and how he or she shows preference for his or her national aerospace industry

Flogger wrote:

“So we have one AV-8B accident , two AH-64 accidents uhmmm sounds like too many accidents in Wartime, do not you think so?”

Absolutely not! Your naivety is simply stunning. Flogger do you actually read Air Forces Monthly? Are you aware that they have an attrition section? Flogger do a bit of research. Add up all those missions and sorties flown during Allied Force and by the nature of the beast you are going to get attrition through accidents. It is exactly the same during peacetime training missions. Aircraft crash in and out of combat zones. Military flying by the nature of the beast can be dangerous – resulting in attrition.

Flogger wrote:

[I]”You are very selective in your Harrier accidents,” [/I]

OK Flogger, you seem to have all the answers in regards to Harrier accidents. From your research please inform me the serials of those Harriers.
The Harrier fuel tank filmed in April is clearly an RAF Harrier example. Can you provide me with a list of RAF Harrier GR.7s lost post Allied Force? Will you now be claiming that Harrier T.10s were flying combat missions from Italy? Please explain yourself?

Flogger wrote:

“also Nato reported an F-16 knocked down by an “Engine accident” please your list is selective in order to avoid questions.You are avoiding an AV-8B harrier accident which claims no enemy fire was the cause of the lost, several Helicopters among them two AH-64, yes they were operating near Serbia but no Serbian fire shot them down yeah yeah, please those accidents are quit suspicious in War time. besides the Serbians claim several Tornadoes and F-16s, yes TEEJ your list is quit selective because including several suspicious “accidents”

So the Serbs claim several Tornadoes do they? Those Tornadoes that are not missing from the fleet perhaps? Tornadoes that simply combat-jettisoned external fuel tanks over Yugoslavia. The Serbs showed the RAF Tornado fuel tanks on video and claimed that the aircraft crashed within Serbia. Suprise, suprise they couldn’t come up with the wreckage of that RAF Tornado now isn’t it? No PWs, no repatriated bodies of aircrew etc.

Flogger wrote:

Here is an excerpt from an Interview to a NATO Colonel named Freytag from AV-8B accident :

-“As earlier mentioned, we lost 1 aircraft during yesterday’s operation. At 2.20 this morning, local Brussels time, an F16CJ experienced an engine failure 18 kilometres east of Kosluk whilst returning from a mission over Yugoslavia. The cause of the engine failure is under review. The pilot was recovered safely and is now at a NATO base. An AV8B Harrier aircraft was also lost in a training accident. This aircraft was not assigned to NATO but was supporting NATO’s operation”-

See it was an interview, ah but we always have to believe accidents eh?

See they claim an F-16 lost was an accident do you see that is the same F-16 later was acknowledged as the shot down because they said the wreckage is in Serbia

-” Yes, I repeat it was engine failure but as we of course are interested in what caused the engine failure, we are still reviewing this incident. It will be difficult because we don’t have the wreckage, it is on FRY soil. It is still under review.”-

Question for you why do not acknowledge from the begining it was shot down?

Do you think the F-16 pilot had amnesia?

So everything has to be black and white for you at a press conference? All the facts at the finger tips of the briefer and this is what you present as evidence? LOL!. Colonel Freytag even got the variant of the F-16 wrong. It wasn’t a CJ but a CG. Will that also be part of your conspiracy. Will it lead you to believe that an F-16CJ was also downed on the 2nd May 1999?

Flogger I take it that you have actually listened to the audio tape of F-16CG, serial 88-0550? His callsign was Hammer 34. At the time the briefer had limited information, but to you that is a major conspiracy theory in itself. Do you think that the briefer went to the pilot and went through his flight step by step? The Colonel even stated in his brief that the cause of the engine failure is under review! The pilot himself later gave a brief in which he recounts coming under fire from Serb air defences and taking a hit.

F-16CG, serial 88-0550, took shrapnel damage from an SA-3 fired by a battery commanded by Lt. Col. Dani Zoltan. The F-16’s engine flamed out some time later due to the warhead damage and the pilot couldn’t restart it resulting in his ejection.

Audio from the events of 2nd May 1999:

http://www.1stguns.de/support/f_16_hit_serbia.mp3

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Feb2000/n02172000_20002172.html

Flogger, if you had done some research on the subject then you would have found out that the pilot of F-16CG, serial 88-0550 – Callsign “Hammer 34” recounted his story to an audience during a DoD’s annual personnel recovery conference, sponsored by the Defense POW-Missing Personnel Office. Hammer 34 and his rescuers told their stories on the condition of anonymity. If you listen to the audio which was made in the clear and available to all radio enthusiasts with receivers in the region then you will note “Hammer, did you take a hit?”. This is right at the start of the recorded transmission.

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Feb2000/n02172000_20002172.html

“Hammer 34” told the audience here during DoD’s recent third annual personnel recovery conference, sponsored by the Defense POW-Missing Personnel Office. Hammer 34 and his rescuers told their stories on the condition of anonymity. In fact it was later revealed that he was the squadron commander.

“Hammer 34” had just finished a strike against Serb SAM missile sites near Novi Sad when an enemy missile exploded close to his jet and made his the second U.S. aircraft downed during Operation Allied Force. He punched out and watched the aircraft hit the ground in a ball of flames as he parachuted safely to the ground.”

Flogger if you had actually taken the time do some in-depth research then you would have found the above yourself. During Allied Force a huge percentage of the communications were in the clear. Radio enthusiasts tuned in daily to listen to the vast amount of non-secure comms. Many of those were recorded including “Hammer 34s”. Other communications listened into of note included the F-15/16 v MiG-29 engagements on the first night (24th March) and on the 26th March 1999.

Enthusiasts set up chat channels recounting the best bits that they were listening into. If you believe in the ’38’ then you must also believe that there must have been a huge number of incidents intercepted on radio. Strange that those Maydays, Combat search and rescue transmissions etc also went undetected by those keen and eager radio enthusiasts. The desicion to go mostly open comms was because that not all players in the NATO fleet had equipment compatability at that time.

The USMC AV-8B was Bureau Number 164568. This was lost off the USS Kearsarge due to pilot error. The Kearsarge was off the coast near Brindisi, Italy when the accident happened. In a transition phase he did the same as the RAF Harrier pilot at the Lowestoft airshow in 2002. It is a common cause of Harrier accidents and all it takes is a lapse in concentration to get yourself in trouble.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/suffolk/3330045.stm

“An RAF board of inquiry has now established that Flight Lieutenant Cann had accidentally operated the controls for throttle and nozzle direction lever at the same time causing it to drop like a stone.”

So Flogger, just for your conspiracy we are to believe that a USMC pilot took a flight endorsement for pilot error in order to cover up a combat loss? The pilot successfully ejected.

Flogger, operating Harriers has never been easy. During June 1999 two USMC AV-8Bs were lost – one in Japan the other in the U.S. No doubt your conspiracy theory will stretch to the fact that these losses actually took place over Yugoslavia on combat operations LOL!

http://www.cnn.com/US/9906/18/marines.harriers/index.html

“Six of the grounded attack jets are currently aboard the amphibious assault ship U.S.S. Kearsarge now sailing in the Adriatic Sea in support of NATO operations in Yugoslavia.

The first Harrier crashed during take off June 4 at Kadena Airbase in Okinawa, Japan, and a second crashed June 14 during a training flight at the Barry Goldwater Bombing and Gunnery Range in Arizona. Both crashes are under investigation.”

On the two AH-64 losses. Flogger the AH-64 did not take part in combat operations. It was never put into combat. Did you really think that they were involved in combat operations? Do you not think that the individual who you believe shot down the two Apaches would be somewhat of a national hero? Strange that no Serb unit has claimed any of those AH-64s don’t you think?

Flogger you are aware that the first AH-64 to crash was filmed? Strange that you believe that it must have been due to enemy action? An area swarming with troops and media and no one notices units of the Serb Army firing or shooting at the helo? Not one Serb unit has made any claim for any AH-64. The crew survived and the cause was investigated as pilot error. Here we have an AH-64 filmed in trouble resulting in a crash and we are led to believe that the crew would take an error endorsement to hide a loss to enemy fire.?

I take it that you have seen the video footage Flogger?

The second AH-64 crash in May resulted in the deaths of the crew. Again in Albania. The U.S. Army investigation concluded that the cause will be listed as unknown “due to the degree of damage sustained during the crash sequence,” Army spokesman Col. Edwin Veiga said. In what he described as a highly unusual outcome, Veiga said investigators could find no definitive answer to what caused the crash.

The AH-64 had been on a training mission in a formation of five. Chief Warrant Officer David Gibbs and Chief Warrant Officer Kevin Reichert were killed. Now Flogger are we to believe that the other Apache crews are all covering up that they came under enemy fire while in Albania? The deaths of their colleagues are officially down as a training accident and not in combat. Do you not think they would have noticed enemy fire such as a missile launch resulting in crash? Again no Serb unit, or individual makes any claim for any of those AH-64s. Or do you believe that they were destroyed along with several others in the Serbian air raids on Rinas? I take it that you have read the fantasy stories of both the Tuzla and Rinas air raids?

Going back to the first AH-64 the Serb media couldn’t help themselves. A video was hown on Serb TV and claimed to be from the actual shooting down of the AH-64. Footage was made from three segments, first firing of SA-7 (Grail), second firing showed an SA-13 (Gopher). Those clips were taken from a VJ military documentary made long before Allied Force. The third footage was taken from the western camera crew who was filming the Apache. It was a very poor attempt to pass it off as authentic combat footage for the benefit of the Serb population. Again no Serb unit made any claims of any AH-64s apart from the one’s you will see on Venik’s website such as the claims that they captured an Apache deep inside Kosovo etc.Please Flogger tell me that you don’t actually believe those stories?

Flogger, you are still not coming up with the goods. If you believe in the ’38’ then where are the announcements of training accidents to cover them up? Why hasn’t NATO announced the fact that a Tornado or F-16 etc crashed in Italy in order to cover up a combat loss? Flogger where are the missing RAF Harriers? I take it that you believe that because an RAF Tornado left its externals behind then it must have been shot down? Do the Serbs actually claim that they shot down Tornadoes?

I feel that you are scouring through Venik’s and other ‘NATO down tables’ and attributing stories and tales. Flogger you are aware that the Serbs themselves admitted after the conflict to the propaganda campaign aimed at the Serb population. A campaign that completely got out of control and resulted in the likes of yourself hanging onto every story and tale that it produced.

This disinformation campaign was revealed in “INAT: Images of Serbia and the Kosovo Conflict” by Scott Taylor He describes an interview with Bojan Bugarcic on 25th November 1999 (Bugarcic, was the Senior Advisor on International Affairs to Yugoslav President Milosevic)

“He [Bugarcic] said that, throughout the war, a tremendous, and extremely effective, propaganda campaign had been mounted by the Serbian military. The aim was to keep the populace believing their forces were mounting a spirited defence. “Using the state broadcaster, unofficial ‘Russian intelligence’ web pages and Army communiqués, the deception had been so successful that many people were fooled. My 22-year-old translator, Vlada Kopric, was one example. While he vehemently denounced the government-controlled RTS media network as spouting ‘pure lies,’ his explorations on the Internet had led him to the bogus Russian intelligence site. As a result, up until my November interview with Bugarcic, Vlada had truly believed that the Serbian military had successfully shot down 78 NATO aircraft.”He was devestated when he learned the truth.”

It was the disinformation campaign that resulted in ‘Gvozden Djukic’. The name ‘Gvozden Djukic’ originally appeared as air defence ground unit commander. An example of the disinformation campaign getting out of hand such as B-2s being shot down etc was your belief that a MiG-29 pilot named ‘Gvozden Djukic’ shot down an F-117 and was awarded a medal by Milosevic.

This was the propaganda that subsequently made it into Russian military and civilian press: (Obviously someone spun it out for their own agenda!)

“Lt.Col. Gvozden Djukic: “Suddenly I saw a dot of light in the sky, and I headed by aircraft towards it. I realized that I was doing a head-on attack. The first missile I fired against it struck it in that head-on course.”

Few hours later Gvozden Djukic (and the whole world) knew due to the TV coverage that his victim had been one of the -until that time- considered invincible stealth fighters F-117A Nighthawks. After that it was clear that the stealth fighter was neither invisible nor immune to the helmet-mounted gunsight of the MiG-29 and their missiles R-73 Archer.”

Not one member of the 127 Lae made any such claim.

Over to you Flogger. Be good now until next weekend. Don’t be doing extensive research and breaking the ‘NATO losses’ conspiracy theory.

Will Flogger find the missing ’38’? Will he bring NATO to its knees with the revalations? Will governments fall due to the outcry? Tune in next week for Flogger’s solving of the cover-up!

Hehehehe

TEEJ

Yes very reliable excuses for what Freytag said, So NATO did send a complete idiot for a press release? hehehehehe 😀 you are excusing an unexcusable mistake you are denying a simple fact there was no mistake they did know they lost the F-16 to Serbian fire but simply they waited to say the best account fitting the circumstances, yes that mistake was intentional

Same is the Harrier, who will prove it was an accident or not? if the wreckage did not fall in Serbian territory, yes TEEJ those mistakes were simply deliberated attempts to gain time for the best official version.

according to you the F-16`s radar warning recievers did not work or do not work to alert about threats such as SAMs eh?

OK Flogger,
Firstly I think you are simply a Troll. Wasn’t it some time ago that you were claiming that you were thirteen years old? Looking back over your posts your naivety is still that of a thirteen year olds.

I see that you are now doing some research in regard to the links that I supplied you. Flogger can you tell me how many Harrier GR.7s have crashed since the end of Allied Force combat ops in 1999? Flogger your naivety is simply stunning. All you have to offer is smiley’s when you noted that Harriers have been lost in accidents. So we now have your opinion that aircraft accidents post Allied Force (1999) are figments to cover up a combat loss over Yugoslavia.

It’s taken me about 30 minutes to compile the following. Flogger study the links carefully. Note the vast conspiracy theory that would have to be put in force for your “there are even Harrier GR7 accident losses hehehehehe in that
list”

Harrier GR.7 losses since Allied Force (Remember that combat ops started on 24 March 1999):

ZD345 crashed 9 July 1999 5 miles south west of Boston, Lincolnshire, UK.

ZG532 crashed 14 July 1999 6 miles East of Coldstream, Northumberland, UK.

ZD464 crashed 2 August 2002 at Lowestoft airshow, Suffolk, UK.

Firstly here is ZD464’s demise filmed at the airshow:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2168921.stm

Here is ZD345:

http://photos.airliners.net/photos/photos/5/4/0/0821045.jpg

Imaged on 12 June 1999 at Woodford air show, UK. (I was at this airshow)

It was never noted at Gioia del Colle, Italy as part of Allied Force.

ZD345 was also noted at the RAF Waddington airshow on the 26 and 27 June 1999. (I was at this airshow.)

http://www.jhayles.demon.co.uk/pics/waddo/wad3.htm#p3r3

On the 9 July ZD345 crashed in Lincolnshire, UK.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/390324.stm

ZG532 crashed 14 July 1999

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/394738.stm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/htmlContent.jhtml?html=/archive/1999/07/15/nraf15.html

Both ZD345 and ZG532 are mentioned here along with their radio callsigns and aircraft in their respective

formations:

http://www.mar.co.uk/MAR_BRIT.HTM

zG532 mentioned in UK’s Parliament Minutes of Evidence. Now think Flogger. You live in Russia, or claim to do, how often would you see detailed minutes of evidence including serial number in Russia’s officialdom?

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200001/cmselect/cmdfence/516/516ap05.htm

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200001/cmhansrd/vo001220/halltext/01220h01.htm

From questions raised in reference to ZG532s demise:

“I also have the report into the Harrier crash near Coldstream. That incident involved five Harriers, nine Tornado jets, three of which were supporting the Harriers and six of which were acting as the “enemy”, and a Tucano aircraft

that was on a completely different navigation exercise, presumably without the knowledge of any of the authorities involved. In turn, they did not seem to have knowledge of the low-flying activity that was taking place. One Harrier was lost when departing violently from its course to avoid collision with the Tucano.”

Both ZG532 and ZD345’s demise raised in questions here:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199900/cmhansrd/vo000229/text/00229w07.htm

If you search in Google Groups alt.disasters.aviation you will find the following thread in relation to ZG532’s demise:

Harrier Crash 14 July 1999
Date: Thurs, Jul 15 1999 12:00 am
Email: “JimboC”
Groups: alt.disasters.aviation

Hi,

Does anyone have any info on this Harrier which crashed at Pallinsburn
near Coldstream, Northumberland, UK yesterday?

Jim

From: JimboC – view profile
Date: Sun, Jul 18 1999 12:00 am
Email: “JimboC”
Groups: alt.disasters.aviation

The crash involved a Harrier GR7 of 3sqn RAF, does anyone have the serial
number and pilots name?

Jim

From: Jeff Taylor – view profile
Date: Sun, Jul 18 1999 12:00 am
Email: Jeff Taylor
Groups: alt.disasters.aviation

Hi Jim,

I saw a little bit about this on local news; one eyewitness reported
hearing a loud explosion, then saw the plane coming down in flames.
The pilot ejected and walked away with minor cuts and bruises, after
freeing himself from the tree in which he landed.
Hope this helps,

Best Wishes,

Jeff Taylor

From: JimboC – view profile
Date: Sun, Jul 18 1999 12:00 am
Email: “JimboC”
Groups: alt.disasters.aviation

Jeff,

Thanks for the info. I missed the report on the local news and very
little was mentioned in the Newcastle Evening Chronicle. The location is 800
yards from Pallinsburn House.

My father saw the news report and said it showed the parachute up in a tree, I think the cuts to the pilot were caused by the branches of the trees!

Jim

From: TIMOTHY GUEGUEN – view profile
Date: Sun, Jul 18 1999 12:00 am
Email: TIMOTHY GUEGUEN
Groups: alt.disasters.aviation

Hi Jim,

I saw a little bit about this on local news; one eyewitness reported
hearing a loud explosion, then saw the plane coming down in flames.
Take that with a grain of salt for the moment. Apparently people tend to
see a crashing aircraft as being on fire whether it is or not. I even
saw a local newsreport about a plane crash last year where the newscaster
described the plane as being on fire even tho’ the crash footage showed
nothing of the sort.

tim gueguen 101867″

German aircraft enthusiast noted ZG532 at RAF Laarbruch, Germany during 1999:

http://www.flugzeugforum.de/forum/showthread.php?t=23705&page=29

“22-04,Donnerstag

BASED

3 Sqn,Harrier GR.7 ZD378/26,ZD410/39,ZG532/86″

“26-04,Montag

BASED

3 Sqn,Harrier GR.7 ZD328/09,ZD378/26,ZG532/86″

“11-05,Dienstag

BASED

3 Sqn,Harrier GR.7 ZD328/09,ZD378/26,ZD379/27,ZD410/39,
ZG509/80,ZG532/86″

Flogger here is a defence journalist who I think you should be contacting. Sean Rayment believes that the RAF lost a GR.7 last year in Afghanistan:

“Harrier destroyed by Afghan rocket
By Sean Rayment, Defence Correspondent”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/10/16/nafg16.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/10/16/ixhome.html

Sean Rayment repeats the claim here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/10/30/nafg30.xml

Flogger,
Maybe you should be contacting Mr Rayment? Just imagine together you could split wide open the hidden losses during

Allied Force and beyond?

Over to you Flogger. No doubt you’ll have all the conspiracy theory answers? How are the ‘NATO’ doing it Flogger? I’m a taxpayer and need to know?

TEEJ

So we have one AV-8B accident :rolleyes: , two AH-64 accidents :rolleyes: uhmmm sounds like too many accidents in Wartime, do not you think so? 😀 you are very selective in your Harrier accidents, also Nato reported an F-16 knocked down by an “Engine accident” :rolleyes: please your list is selective in order to avoid questions.

You are avoiding an AV-8B harrier accident which claims no enemy fire was the cause of the lost, several Helicopters among them two AH-64, yes they were operating near Serbia but no Serbian fire shot them down yeah yeah, please those accidents are quit suspicious in War time.

besides the Serbians claim several Tornadoes and F-16s, yes TEEJ your list is quit selective because including several suspicious “accidents” :rolleyes:
Here is an excerpt from an Interview to a NATO Colonel named Freytag from AV-8B accident :

-“As earlier mentioned, we lost 1 aircraft during yesterday’s operation. At 2.20 this morning, local Brussels time, an F16CJ experienced an engine failure 18 kilometres east of Kosluk whilst returning from a mission over Yugoslavia. The cause of the engine failure is under review. The pilot was recovered safely and is now at a NATO base. An AV8B Harrier aircraft was also lost in a training accident. This aircraft was not assigned to NATO but was supporting NATO’s operation”-

See it was an interview, ah but we always have to believe accidents eh? :rolleyes:

See they claim an F-16 lost was an accident do you see that is the same F-16 later was acknowledged as the shot down because they said the wreckage is in Serbia

-” Yes, I repeat it was engine failure but as we of course are interested in what caused the engine failure, we are still reviewing this incident. It will be difficult because we don’t have the wreckage, it is on FRY soil. It is still under review.”-

Question for you why do not acknowledge from the begining it was shot down?

Do you think the F-16 pilot had amnesia? 😀 😀 😉

Su-24