In order to achieve M2 it needs to travel at 50 to 60kft, making it visible even to ground based stations distanced several hundred miles away. Although Mach 2 is a tough mark, fighter jets still are able to get a firing solution, especially when guided in the frontal hemisphere by ground control. Even the MiG-25 nearly was caught when it dashed with M2.8 over Israel. For a Sparrow or an AMRAAM Mach 2 is still slow. Against the blue sky even low RCS doesn’t help, the radar works best here.

The capability to turn is severely limited. A good ground controller can estimate the probability when the aircraft is in which sector. When going low close to M0.9 the detection lead time is actually much shorter. Radar has difficulties here, missile ranges are reduced, ECM works in your favor. The B-1B is the smarter solution, the Mach 2 capability of the Tu-160 generally wasted money, although it looks good on paper. The heavier propulsion system needed for such speeds idle 99% of the time, as cruising speeds will be M0.85 to M0.9.

How it is going to be a waste of time and money if it has cruise missiles with 3000km of range, the Tu-160 does not need fly over the target it is not a B-29 droping a nuke, it is a rocket launcher aerial platform

4 pages later and seems like people still don’t get it.

I can’t answer every question but

1. This is a comparison about air forces that uses both western and soviet types in their inventory. Its not about air forces that use only soviet versus air forces using only western, so enough about Russian AF this or experiences in the USAF.

2. No Flogger, posting up as many pics as you can won’t make your point better. All you’ve done is post up a bunch of random aircraft that have nothing to do with the topic.

3. Some one claimed I’m selectively picking certain examples, well what else can one expect? There’s very few air forces that operate both types and I’ve listed most of them. Indian AF, Egyptian AF, Mexico, Peru, etc with India probably being the best example because they’ve often used them in war.

4. They sure are comparable, the Mirage 2000 is not too far off from the MiG-23 and 27 in production schedules, and even then, the 2000 excelled in an area that was supposed to be where the 23ML and 27 excelled in.

5. Even in China, whenever possible, they often prefer western designs or western inspired designs over what they get from Russia.

6. some one kept mentioning how great the MKI and MKM is. Notice that much of its greatness is owed to the fact that it uses a large part of Western sourced avionics. Israel, France, to name a few. How many here rave about the MKK? very few.

7. Malaysia has had a much easier time with their Hornet serviceability rates over their MiG-29, which explains no more follow up orders for it.

that is not to say that all Russian equivelents are bad, Russia probably gets better versions that are different than what India or Peru may use, but we’re not talking about Russia here.

Here we have a funny post, basicly claiming China prefers western equipment than Russian one, later saying that the operational experiences of Mexico, Venezuela, India, Malasya, Indonesia, Peru, Germany, Libya, China and others show that Russian equipment is inferior.

The Chinese in reality can not complaign about Russian products because Russia has always put China`s air forces to the Level of the Western ones.
Without Russia`s help no J-10, J-11, J-7, JH-7. J-6, J-5, Kunlun, FC-1, K-8 and many other products would had flown, no Russian help means China will still remain the backward country it was, your comments show a typical example of a person who has no real experience in the Chinese aircraft industry, Russia and China have good relations up to some level and the Chinese know despite Russia has good technological level, Russia can not satisfy all the demands China has specially in modern helicopters or airliners since bascly Russia is creating a new Generation of aircraft such as the Sukhoi superjet 100 or Kamov Ka-62 just to say a few new models that are designed to compete with the modern western aircraft where soviet older vintage generation can not and that China replaced with Western products.
See in fact that the beautiful MiG-21 is the bread and butter of Chinese aircraft experience
“>

Russian products are good and as many products and sometimes surpass their western counterparts however sometimes they are far behind.

Let us give examples.

Malasya has MiG-29s and F-18 but went for Su-30s why? they could easily have gone for F-15s but prices and capabilities were a a factor for the purchase.

You claim that the Su-30MKK is behind the Su-30MKI because of avionics that is far from the true, the Su-30MKI is a really good airframe and it is because it has thrust vectoring and canards something that the Su-30MKK has not.
No one will rave about an aircraft that is at least half a generation behind the Su-30MKI..

In few words the reason why air forces take both designs is simply because there are good aircraft in both sides even despite Western propaganda claims Russian aircraft as inferior simply because they are cheaper or their air forces have fought export variants and older aircraft than their own with numerical disadvantage for the Russian made aircraft.

I do not care what ever you say because i posted a very good link for a documentary where they say the MiG-15 was better than the F-86 in performance and ability to absorb punishment and this was declared by Western and Russian pilots who fought in the Korean war.

Russian products are good but not all of them, sometimes there are of course products that are less capable than their western counterparts

The Tu-160 will rule is fast and has long range cruise missile and inflight refuelling

param name=”movie” value=”http://i47.vbox7.com/player/ext.swf?vid=26fe9323“>

http://www.vbox7.com/play:26fe9323

Look genius. it does not take much to see that putting two engines in one plane is an obvious idea. Look at Sukhoi’s efforts in the same area.

In the sixties and seventies, China did not have VG technology and even if they copied it, it would have been deemed to complex and expensive, since they prefer cheaper, more straightforward, easier to maintain designs. In the sixties, everyone was going for delta wings, and for delta wing its more convenient to put middle to low of the aircraft. How many delta winged aircraft around the world at that time had a low or mid wing position? Just about everyone from Dassault to the Delta Dagger/Dart. The loose logic being practiced here might make it appear that the Mirage III is derived from the Delta Dagger or vice versa.

The Ye-150 has only one engine to boot. Now when you compare the J-8I with the twin engine Ye-152, somethings become apparent. The Ye-152 appears much thicker, and it has a large top spine which the J-8I doesn’t. On the J-8I side, it had two ventral fins on the bottom which the Ye-152 doesn’t. The intake cone for the Ye-152 extends much further out than the J-8I, giving the Ye-152 a more pointed look, while the J-8I has more of an open mouth look. that difference alone makes a big deal on the aerodynamics of feeding the engine. In the concept drawings that led to the J-8 and J-9, none of them had an extended inlet cone like the Ye-152.

Furthermore, in the history of the J-8I, China never had a major supersonic high flying interceptor requirement until around 1966-68 when that requirement was formed. Why would China acquire blueprints of the Ye-152 when they had no requirement for such, and second, why would Russia give it to them when the distrust between Russia and China was peaking. As a matter of fact out of that supersonic interceptor requirement, there were two proposals, one led to the J-8, and other led to the J-9.

As for the Su-27, carrying the longer ranged R-27ER does not make it a more effective interceptor. It needs to keep the target in the forward view of the radar or otherwise, the missile will fail to track it. Using the R-27ER, it also does not have the ability to engage multiple targets. The cassegrain radar cannot twist and turn to have the same wide field of view as the planar radar equipped J-8F has. This is not to mention that the radar has a sea search and anti-sea clutter resistance that the Su-27 radars don’t have, a reason why the J-8F is being preferred in the PLANAF.

Crobato

The Ye-152A is a very similar aircraft and it is too much of a coincidence of course the Russian sources in their vast majority do not talk too much about the Ye-150/Ye-152 however you were very wrong about the are rule in the Ye-152A, the only reason you can assure the Ye-152A is not a direct ancestor at least very direct one is simply because there are not many russian sources that talk about the Ye-152 and few mention a lot of details.

Now you can take what ever account you wish, i do not have read many russian sources mentioning the direct link and the transfer of the documentation.
For the moment you can take the account you wish, however there are some poeple that see that similarity suspicious and simply some sources say there is a relation.

However if you read the opinion of several Russian posters in air force ru you will see they consider the Ye-152 a base for the J-8 and the MiG-23 as base for the modified J-8II as some other people do

http://forums.airforce.ru/showthread.php?t=1026&page=2
Here they say that aftern completing the program the technical documentation was sold to China for the chinese J-8 fighter aircraft program
После окончания программы испытаний техническая документация на планер была продана китайцам, которые на ее базе разработали новый истребитель-перехватчик J-8.

http://www.cardarmy.ru/hobbymod/e152.htm

Who said that the F-117 was invulnerable? It is inherently very difficult to detect and track at useful ranges, which is why it had value under certain circumstances, but it is definitely not invulnerable–nothing is.

The B-1B and B-52 are still valuable because of their range and payload capabilities, but they would never be used in the same manner as the F-117 because most likely every single one of them would be shot down during their first mission–it is simply not a fair comparison. Also, being larger, more expensive aircraft, they were designed with much longer service lives, and were flown more like airliners than fighters.

No excuses are needed–the F-117 or any stealth aircraft can be shot down if they get too close to a SAM site or another fighter (due to tactics and/or luck). However, this does not change the fact that they are significantly less vulnerable to being detected and tracked by radar systems than conventional aircraft. The F-117 is too simple and crude to take full advantage of this capability–it’s not much more than a concept demonstrator equipped with FLIR and a laser designator, and it’s definitely not a fighter–but there are more complete, advanced stealth fighters already flying and being developed.

This is true enough.

As far as I’m concerned, the proven effectiveness of Russian SAMs means that their industry knows what its doing regarding weapon systems, and if their aircraft can fly well, which everyone can see for themselves, then they should be quite capable in combat. While they may not be as proven by some measures because of circumstance, I wouldn’t dare to underestimate them.

The question is why an air force buys Russian aircraft? for example some might buy Russian aircraft as the only option in this case we have Iran and Venezuela in 2007; Poland and Bulgaria during the cold war, or India and China when they wanted technology transfers that Western powers would not simply grant.

Later comes combat record or general capabilities.

Brazil for example is pondering basicly between the Rafale, the Gripen and the Su-35 as possible candidates and this is because the Su-35 brings technology transfers with execellent capabilities.

During the last part of the XX century Russia sold or bartered weapons simply because they were the only side that would had done it.

why then the West claims the Russian technology is inferior simply because of western national and political interests and as a way to keep their fighters in the market because Russian products are cheaper than western equivalents and usually as cost effective and capable as western fighters.

When we see numbers in the export market we see that Russian products are good and still can competive with Western products

the MiG-29 is an example

Poland operates MiG-29s and F-18, Malasya operates MiG-29s and F-18, Peru operates Mirage 2000 and MiG-29, India operates MiG-29s and Mirage 2000, Germany operated MiG-29s along side F-4s.
check the Malasya opted for Su-30s even they still operate F-18s

Other aircraft are typical examples of Russian good craftmanship.

The An-32 is operated along side the C-130, the Mi-8 along side the Blackhawk in the Mexican air force, Venezuela operates F-16s and Su-30s.

The reality is all aircraft have flaws and the F-117 was retired simply becasue the new generation of SAM are deadlier than even the SA-3 that shot one proving that still is not invulnerable.

In numbers no other western fourth generation fighter has been more exported than the MiG-29 with the exception of the F-16, and the Su-27 has in the same level of the F-15 in export numbers

And you seem to have a clear wish to underestimate it. The J8F can use both ARH and PRH BVRAAMs and has a pretty modern and decent radar. They also come with high off-broadside WVR AAMs and HMS and have new built airframes to boot (the airframe itself has also been refined recently). That is hardly ‘barely’ able to fire modern weapons, and when was the last time the F4F was upgraded?

Besides, as usual you have completely missed the point. Go back and read what I wrote instead of what you thought I wrote. I never said the J8II was on par with the Mig31, in fact I specifically pointed out that the J8 was much less capable.

Which is just a collection of speculation that struggles to present any evidence whatsoever of tech transfer.

If you have a sourse with any evidence of tech transfer, please post it, otherwise stop spamming the thread with 50 different dubius sources that all fail to present anything more then baseless speculation.

Please man, undertand this, in all the things of what i read about chinese aviation i see the Russian presence all the time in fact almost every project you will see Russian presence in one way or another, it is too much of a coincidence that both aircraft look similar even to the degree that they followed and mirrowed the development of the MiG-21 and MiG-23, after the MiG-21 the Russians attempted to build the Ye-150/Ye-152 and the Sukhoi T-5 what does China do? well after the MiG-21 they developed a copy at least in concept of the Ye-152A, and later the copy the MiG-23 in the J-8II.

yeah that is what i call original thinking, the Ye-150 in Russia was a further development of the MiG-21 and the chinese did the same with their MiG-21 copies.

The R-11 that powers the J-8I is the same engine that powers the Ye-152A so it means in terms of power plant both aircraft used similar inlet arrangement and technologies, so the Ye-152A is not far from the same design of the J-8.

If china did not copy Russia in the J-8 the Ye-152A why then the J-8 has not a different design for example VG wings, shoulder mounted wings, but not we find that the J-8 mirrows the Ye-150A so you like it or not the Russian sources that claim relation are as speculative as your stand in the J-8 because having the same engine both aircraft share at least some technology

I suggest strongly to refrain from argumenting with MiG23MLD about claimed kills and such stuff, except you like to have an endless but utterly pointless argument on an (exactly: this) internet forum. Many people have more rewarding activities in their spare time.

Schorsch

Did i give you Rusian data? no i did not when i give you the data taken from western acknowledged sources

Дата Подразделение Пилот Самолет Серийный№ Жертва Чем одержана победа
17 янв 91 58 TFS/33 TFW Kelk F-15C 85-119 МиГ-29 AIM-7
17 янв 91 58 TFS/33 TFW Graeter F-15C 85-105 Mirage F-1
Mirage F-1 AIM-7
AIM-7
17 янв 91 71 TFS/1 TFW Tate F-15C 83-017 Mirage F-1 AIM-7
17 янв 91 58 TFS/33 TFW Magill F-15C 85-125 МиГ-29 AIM-7
17 янв 91 VFA-81 Fox F/A-18C 163508 МиГ-21 AIM-9
17 янв 91 VFA-81 Mongillo F/A-18C 163502 МиГ-21 AIM-7
17 янв 91 390 ECS/366 TFW Denton/Brandon EF-111A 66-016 Mirage F-1 на земле
19 янв 91 58 TFS/33 TFW Tollini F-15C 85-099 МиГ-25 AIM-7
19 янв 91 58 TFS/33 TFW Pitts F-15C 85-101 МиГ-25 AIM-7
19 янв 91 58 TFS/33 TFW Underhill F-15C 85-122 МиГ-29 AIM-7
19 янв 91 58 TFS/33 TFW Rodriguez F-15C 85-114 МиГ-29 на земле
19 янв 91 525 TFS/36 TFW Prather F-15C 79-069 Mirage F-1 AIM-7
19 янв 91 525 TFS/36 TFW Sveden F-15C 79-021 Mirage F-1 AIM-7
24 янв 91 RSAF: No.13 Sqn Shamrani F-15C ? Mirage F-1
Mirage F-1 AIM-9
AIM-9
26 янв 91 58 TFS/33 TFW Draeger F-15C 85-104 МиГ-23 AIM-7
26 янв 91 58 TFS/33 TFW Schiavi F-15C 85-108 МиГ-23 AIM-7
26 янв 91 58 TFS/33 TFW Rodriguez F-15C 85-114 МиГ-23 AIM-7
27 янв 91 53 TFS/36 TFW Denney F-15C 84-025 МиГ-23
МиГ-23 AIM-9
AIM-9
27 янв 91 53 TFS/36 TFW Powell F-15C 84-027 МиГ-23
Mirage F-1 AIM-7
AIM-7
29 янв 91 58 TFS/33 TFW Rose F-15C 85-102 МиГ-23 AIM-7
29 янв 91 32 TFG Watrous F-15C 79-022 МиГ-23 AIM-7
2 февр 91 525 TFS/36 TFW Masters F-15C 79-064 Ил-76 AIM-7
6 февр 91 53 TFS/36 TFW Dietz F-15C 79-078 МиГ-21
МиГ-21 AIM-9
AIM-9
6 февр 91 53 TFS/36 TFW Hehemann F-15C 84-019 Су-25
Су-25 AIM-9
AIM-9
6 февр 91 706 TFS/926 TFG Swain A-10A 77-275 Bo-105 GAU-8
7 февр 91 VF-1 Broce/McElraft F-14A 162603 Mи-8 AIM-9
7 февр 91 58 TFS/33 TFW Parsons F-15C 85-124 Су-7/17 AIM-7
7 февр 91 58 TFS/33 TFW Murphy F-15C 85-102 Су-7/17
Су-7/17 AIM-7
AIM-7
7 февр 91 22 TFS/36 TFW May F-15C 80-003 Mи-24 AIM-7
11 февр 91 525 TFS/36 TFW Dingee F-15C 80-012 0.5 x вертолет AIM-7
11 февр 91 525 TFS/36 TFW McKenzie F-15C 79-048 0.5 x вертолет AIM-7
14 февр 91 335 TFS/4 TFW Bennett/Bakke F-15E 89-487 Hughes 500 GBU-10
15 февр 91 511 TFS/10 TFW Sheehy A-10A 81-964 Mи-8 GAU-8
20 март 91 22 TFS/36 TFW Doneski F-15C 84-014 Су-22 AIM-9
22 март 91 53 TFS/36 TFW Dietz F-15C 84-010 Су-22 AIM-9
22 март 91 53 TFS/36 TFW Hehemann F-15C 84-015 PC-9 на земле

Примечание: список составлен на основе Gulf War Airpower Survey, Volume 5; Norman Friedman, Desert Victory; Robert Wilcox, Wings of Fury; World Air Power Journal

http://www.airwar.ru/history/locwar/persg/vict91/vict91.html
this is the losses by western forces

Дата Тип ЛА Принадлежность Место Причина потери
17/01/91 F-15E 4 TFW 16nm ЮЗ Басра Зенитный огонь
17/01/91 Tornado GR.1 617 Sqn (RAF) 8nm NWW Tallil Зенитный огонь
17/01/91 A-4 ВВС Кувейта 25nm S Kuw.City ЗРК
17/01/91 F/A-18C VFA-81 29nm SE Baghdad МиГ-25ПД
17/01/91 GR.1 15 Sqn (RAF) 1nm W Basrah ЗРК
17/01/91 A-6E VA-35 10nm SW H-3 ЗРК
18/01/91 A-6E VA-155 Marsh, SW Abadan Зенитный огонь
18/01/91 Tornado GR.1 ВВС Италии 20nm NW Kuw.City ?
18/01/91 OV-10 USMC Ras Al Mishab ЗРК
19/01/91 GR.1 617 Sqn (RAF) 51nm SE Tallil ЗРК
19/01/91 GR.1 15 Sqn (RAF) H-3 ЗРК
19/01/91 F-15E 4 TFW Al Qiam SA-2
19/01/91 Tornado GR.1 ВВС Сауд.Аравии Зенитный огонь
19/01/91 F-16C 401 TFW 36nm W Tallil ЗРК
19/01/91 F-4G 35 TFW 1nm N KKMC Зенитный огонь
19/01/91 F-16C 401 TFW Baghdad ЗРК
21/01/91 F-14A+ VF-103 H-2/H-3 SA-2
22/01/91 Tornado GR.1 16 Sqn (RAF) N3306 E04002 ?
28/01/91 AV-8B USMC 15nm S Ahmadi Зенитный огонь
31/01/91 AC-130H 1 SOW 12nm N Khafji ЗРК
02/01/91 A-10A 23 TFW 20nm SW Kuw.Cty ЗРК
02/02/91 A-6E USN 20nm E Kuw.Cty Зенитный огонь
05/02/91 F/A-18 USN 40nm E. Kuw.Cty
05/02/91 A-10A 354 TFW Зенитный огонь
07/02/91 GR.1 27 Sqn (RAF) ЗРК
09/02/91 AV-8B USMC 24nm SW Kuw.Cty ЗРК
09/02/91 F/A-18 USMC ЗРК
13/02/91 F-5E ВВС Сауд.Аравии Near Wadi Al Kirk Зенитный огонь
13/02/91 EF-111 20 TFW 30nm NW Arar маневрирование
14/02/91 Tornado GR.1 15 Sqn (RAF) 50nm NW Baghdad ЗРК
15/02/91 A-10A 354 TFW 60nm NW Kuw.Cty SA-13
15/02/91 A-10A 354 TFW 60nm NW Kuw.Cty SA-13
19/02/91 OA-10A 23 TASS 62nm NW Kuw.Cty ЗРК
22/02/91 A-10A 23 TFW ЗРК
23/02/91 AV-8B VMA-542 2nm W Kuw.Cty ЗРК
25/02/91 OV-10 VMO-1 S. Kuwait ЗРК
25/02/91 AV-8B VMA-542 Ali Al Salem ЗРК
27/02/91 OA-10A 23 TASS KKMC ЗРК
27/02/91 AV-8B VMA-331 30nm NNE Kuw.Cty Зенитный огонь
2/02/91 F-16C 50 TFW Зенитный огонь

Составлено по Gulf War Airpower Survey, Vol. 5; Norman Friedman, Desert Victory; World Air Power Journal.

http://www.airwar.ru/history/locwar/persg/poteri91/poteri_91.html if you do not believe me when the Russians claimed that the MiG-15 shot down 4 F-86s Sabres for each MiG-15, well then watch this western documentary where they interviewed Russian pilots who flew in the Korean war

http://producers.guba.com/watch/3000024266?duration_step=0&fields=23&filter_tiny=0&pp=40&query=mig-15&sb=10&set=-1&sf=0&size_step=0&o=0&sample=1202522466:7195445ce6c8dad3940a8898fb83048a77dd1acf

Of course when you count that the Iraqies shot down at least three F-16s and the Western forces shot down 4 MiG-29s and the Iraqies shot down 5 Panavia Tornadoes and lost 7 MiG-23s you can see you do not want to see a reality during Gulf war I the attrition rate was almost equal 1:1 just taking the Western data

http://www.f-16.net/articles_article8.html
The Gulf War in 1991 was the first major action for USAF F-16s. The F-16 was assigned to the attack role during the Gulf War and scored no “kills” against Iraqi aircraft, but the Vipers performed large numbers of strikes on ground targets and also flew “Fast FAC (Forward Air Control)” missions to spot targets for other strike elements. Three F-16s were lost in combat and one was lost in an operational accident during the conflict.

http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avf163.html

Then why you ask do not argue with me simple it is another way to deny realities the Russian weaponry is effective and all the slandering and labelling as inferior is only a way of boost national prides avoiding to see the real losses might be different than those accepted by the Western Media