But when MiG-23MLD promotes the superior radar of the MiG-23MLD, then I would like to know if any relevance was given to improve the man-machine interface. The F-15A was up to my knowledge the first aircraft where one single pilot could handle a BVR fight without close guidance (means: acquiring target, locking, firing). Of course, ability is very depending on training and workload may easily exceed the limit, especially when under attack. On an F-16A (although the aircraft lacks MR-AAM support) the radar allows the pilot to have a quite useful awareness of the situation 50km in front of him, possibly even plan his tactical maneuvers ahead (f.e. a bracket maneuver).

I have never said the MiG-23ML was better the Russians never say that, they only say the detection range was almost the same but they admit the APG-63 was a better radar

The Saphir MLa-2 N 008 was the most advanced. Did you give the variant of the Saphir you claim the data for? Did you give an official source about that?
I am well aware where your nonsense did come from.

The best joke is, that the Flogger did get its SA data from GCI with much greater range. The limited search mode did allow the Flogger to close in to the preselected target. Aquire the target till a lock can be established and the R-23 or R-24 be fired. Low and in mountainius terrain with a lot of ground-clutter that is in WVR-conditions already. Here the TP-23 does help the R-23T or R-24T, when a short pulse from the radar is still in need to give the distance. The name of the game was to cut the Flogger from CGI.
To restore the lost combat capability of the Flogger, it was in need of a secure data-link and more remote sensors, which were much more difficult to jam. The smartest solution is, to force your opponent to jam that frequencies he is in need himself and does limit his ability to do so at wish.
The first task of the Russian experts was to bring back the GCI in a working order.

Relax buddy, i know you can not admit the Saphir ML has a range in the range of 80-95km and that is what is usually is reported, of course you insists in 70km or less range overlapping data of the Saphir carried by the MiG-23M with that seen on the MiG-23ML.

The most likely range for a MiG-21 target size is 85km, so a bigger aircraft like the F-15 will have a larger RCS and the Russians say the MiG-23 can detect it within a range of 90-95km.

Who is illogic, you that only has presented a page where they even not mention what saphir variant or me who can present you more independently created pages that show a minimun range of 80km and a max of 95km?

see that basicly they claim 85km for a target with a RCS of a MiG-21
состав оборудования входят: РЛС “Сапфир-21” (МиГ-23С и МиГ-23МС), импульсно-доплеровская РЛС “Сапфир-23Д” (МиГ-23М и МиГ-23МФ, дальность обнаружения воздушной цели класса МиГ-21 — 55 км, дальность захвата 35 км), “Сапфир-23МЛ” (Ми Г-23МЛ, дальность обнаружения воздушной цели 85 км, дальность захвата 55 км) или “Сапфир-23МЛА” (МиГ-23МЛА);

http://www.rusarmy.com/avia/mig_23.htm

Thank you for confirmation. As I quoted before, well below 90 km.

Радиолокационный комплекс американского самолета обладал определенными преимуществами перед РЛС МиГ-23МФ, и особенно МиГ-23МС. Однако возможности усовершенствованных МиГ-23МЛ и F-15A оказались примерно равными. Установленная на “Игле” РЛС AN/APG-63 была в состоянии обнаружить МиГ-23 на максимальной дальности до 100-110 км (при курсовом угле 90°), а МиГ-23МЛ “видел” противника при тех же условиях на удалении 90-95 км. Радары обоих самолетов имели возможность обнаруживать цели на фоне земли. Хотя зона обзора AN/APG-63 по азимуту вдвое превосходила зону обзора РП-23 (соответственно, +/-60 и +/-30°), разрешение по угловым координатам у советской станции было в 1,5 раза лучше, чем у американской, что позволяло, в частности, скрывать от противника истинное число самолетов, летящих в плотном строю.

The F-15`s radar range has certain advantages over the MiG-23MF`s radar, especially MiG-23MS`. However, the possibility of improved MiG-23ML and F-15A were roughly equal. 95 km. Both aircraft radars were able to detect the target against the backdrop of the earth. Although zone review AN/APG-63 on azimuth zone twice exceeded review RP-23 (respectively + / -60 and + / -30 °), permission to bend the coordinates of a Soviet station was 1.5 times better than that of American that allowed, in particular, to conceal the true number of enemy aircraft, flying in a tight strictly.

Радиолокационный комплекс американского самолета обладал определенными преимуществами перед РЛС МиГ-23МФ, и особенно МиГ-23МС. Однако возможности усовершенствованных МиГ-23МЛ и F-15A оказались примерно равными. Установленная на “Игле” РЛС AN/APG-63 была в состоянии обнаружить МиГ-23 на максимальной дальности до 100-110 км (при курсовом угле 90°), а МиГ-23МЛ “видел” противника при тех же условиях на удалении 90-95 км. Радары обоих самолетов имели возможность обнаруживать цели на фоне земли. Хотя зона обзора AN/APG-63 по азимуту вдвое превосходила зону обзора РП-23 (соответственно, +/-60 и +/-30°), разрешение по угловым координатам у советской станции было в 1,5 раза лучше, чем у американской, что позволяло, в частности, скрывать от противника истинное число самолетов, летящих в плотном строю.

The radar complex of American aircraft possessed the definite advantages over RLS MiG-23MF, and especially MiG-23MS. However, the possibilities of detection MiG-23ML and F-15 proved to be approximately equal. The F-15`s radar An/apg-63 was able to detect a MiG-23 at maximum range to 100-110 km (with heading angle of 90°), and MiG-23ML “detected ” the enemy with the same conditions at the range of 90-95 km, the radars of both aircraft they had the capability to detect purposes against the background of the earth. Although the zone of survey An/apg-63 along the azimuth twice exceeded the zone of survey RP-И (respectively, + -60 and + -30°), permission in the angular coordinates in Soviet station was 1,5 times better than in American, which made it possible, in particular, to hide from the enemy the true number of aircraft, which fly in the dense system.
http://www.airwar.ru/history/locwar/…/mig23liv.html

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Unable to read carefully. My quote about the detection range of the latest Saphir was up to 70 km, when an unknown poster did claim 90 km for the ML at all. But with the help of the link, you may like to ignore that nonsense and find it out yourself. It is even a preferred Russian source and not a “questionable” Western one.
http://www.milparade.com/security/28/026x.htm

“increase of an air target detection range up to 90 km”
Increase does mean, that the Saphir does offers less detection range.
For the Moskit it is up to 90 km.

The Saphir radar is a family of radars not all the radars have the same specifications, therefore your generalization is unacurate, the MiG-23M has a radar with different detection range than the MiG-23ML for example

The difference may be between the RCS of the target. Are you trying to detect an F-16 or a B-52?

Up to what i have read it is an F-15 RCS

“Production of the MiG-23 seems to have run ahead of the development of the new missiles. When the type was first observed in East Germany, in the course of 1973, it was seen to be carrying launch rails for K-13-type missiles. The new weapons probably entered service in Soviet Union in the mid-1970s and were kept away from less secure areas of Eastern Europe and the Baltic until the early 1980s. ..”
“The factors behind individual Soviet planning decisions are kept secret. It is no secret, however, that Soviet industry’s forte is the production of mechanical devices: airframes, engines, tanks and the like. In the case of almost any weapon system, it is found that the production of electronics and electronic-based sub-systemslags behind that of the platform itself. In the case of the MiG-23M, the most likely components to present such a problem would be the ‘High Lark’ radar and the new missiles.
In the case of a Western aircraft in the same position, production would probably not be started until the radar production rate could match that of the airframe. The Soviet front commander, though, would rather have the faster, more powerfull aircraft as soon as possible. It is possible that considerations of this sort underlay the development of new versions of the MiG-23, the first of it which appeared quite suddenly on the scene in mid-1975. The simplest adaptation, and possibly the first to be developed was basically a MiG-23M with ‘High Lark’ radar……”

If someone claim performances of a radar, he has to give the right designation. There were built different lots of that basic design, which did differ in specification and reability related to age.
A TV-set built in 1975 does differ from one built in 1980 or in 1985, just to find a very simple example to show what development does mean.

I agree with you in many points, i feel in many ways the MiG-23 lagged behind in several areas and the MiG-23S Flogger A is a good example, later MiG-23s did recieve the R-23s and R-60 in the mid 1970s.

The MiG-23 as any design never was found totally satisfactory, it is true the MiG-23M was found deficient in agility and weaponry, however i feel for a few years perhaps one or two probably in 1975 it was regarded as a good design, but it was never regarded as a very powerful opponent, in fact i believe the only reason it was regarded a threat was because it was very numerous and was inducted into service relatively quickly and in such a large number

Take your time and verify your guesses.

The Mirage F1C did enter full production and service in the AdlA from 1973.
The full combat capability was reached with the Super 530D in 1979. Just three years later the more capable Mirage 2000 did enter service.
The Safir radar based on the technology of the AWG-10 was not very reliable at first to stay polite. I had some thoughts, when I presented the link about the F-4J from 1972.

A fighter has to fullfill a task or it is a waste of money and a failure by that.
The Syrians were unable to defend their AD-net over the Bekaa and their ground troops in a adequate way. Neither the MiG-21s, MiG-23s nor MiG-25s were able to do so. Both parties had 400-500 fighters at hand to send in and to fullfill the related tasks.
The exchange ratio alone is no yardstick. Air-warfare does not mean to bring down hostile fighters at first, but to exercise own firepower in need and deny that to your opponent.

Midway 1942 is a classical example, what I mean about that. The USA had lost more fighters there, when they were able to sink the much more important CVs. You can loose an air-battle but win a war by air-power. (just for the benefit of the others, because someone will not understand the deeper sense related to that claim)

The Flogger was intended as successor of the MiG-21 and it did so in the SU only.
For the other WP countries it was a limited interim fighter to bridge the time for the MiG-29 to come. When did the first WP-countries receive their Floggers?!
For the GDR just one Wing was equipped from 1978, when the other 6 had to be equipped with MiG-29s. At first there was the idea and wish of the SU, that the GDR may purchase more of that, like the ML in 1982 to bring JG-9 to strength [12 MF + 32 ML + 10 UB]. But 1982 did end that thought and all WP countries did start to receive their MiG-29s from 1987/88. From 1989 the system did start to crumble and production of the MiG-29 came to an unforseen stop. The MiG-23 was the first fighter to end its service after 1990.

In the GDR air force it is easy to explain why the stop using the Flogger and other russian fighters simple economics the vast majority of Easter european air forces retired the MiG-23 in the late 1990s or even early 2001 mostly for economics and the need to buy Western fighters .

Now let us analize other air forces: India did not retire the MiG-23 in the 1990s but just few years ago.

The vast majority of Arab nations that were MiG-23 users still fly their MiG-23s even some ex soviet republics still have some MiG-23s or retired it after the year 2000.

Now your theory is the Saphir technology was unreliable all the time so then why the Saphir was modified to be used on the MiG-25PD and was proposed for the MiG-29?

here is the Saphir-25 used on the MiG-25

here is the saphir used on the MiG-23

source
http://www.missiles.ru/foto_MuzeyFAZOTRON-2005.htm

Now if the Saphir was not a mature radar by the mid 1970s they would had not done that, the Saphir was a radar that like any new technology was difficult to handle when it was inducted but eventualy it was perfected and by the time the MiG-23M was being mass manufactured in the mid 1970s it was totally debugged