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MiG-23MLD

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  • in reply to: F-15, F/A-18 #2505302
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    Wasn’t that Rocky’s point!!:rolleyes:

    The main reason why American 4th generation aircraft had to content with blowing Soviet 2/3 generation aircraft out of the sky during the last decade of the Cold War was because there was no such thing as a Soviet built 4th generation figher to be found anywhere around the world for much of this timeframe!

    Both the F-14 and F-15 were in service ten years ahead of the MiG-31 and Su-27 respectively.

    That is not true by 1983 the MiG-29 was operational and the first flight of the MiG-31 and MiG-29 are 1976 and 1977.

    since the Bekka valley to the GWI the F-15 was challenged by MiG-29s and Su-27s but the lack of fund of the MiG-29M, Su-27M or MiG-31M allowed the F-15 to simply fight MiG-23s, Su-22s and Mirage F1, the real outcomes of the wars it fought have been always single Histories never admitting losses to air to air

    In 1982 Israel had dead and captured POW pilots, in 1991 the Western alliance did too, in 1999 over the former Yugoslavia there were also western pilots shot down however the motto has been say SAMs have killed our aircrafts or accidents in the best case of course accidents in the combat zone, the F-15 is invencible in air to air combat

    in reply to: F-15, F/A-18 #2505307
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    Right and wrong as always. Related to aerodynamics yes and as a weapons-system not!
    That is the reason, why the Flanker as a design from the 70s is upgraded in avionics mainly.

    Otherwise you can claim, that the later SH has been surpassed by its forebar, the F/A-18 C/D.

    The true next generation is the 5th starting with the F-22.

    The F-15 already is an old aircraft, its title as the best fighter has been achieved not too much as a direct result of its technical merits as it is usually claimed.

    For example up to 85% of its claimed kills are third generation fighters, the few targets that count are a few MiG-29s and few MiG-25s, they succeded because they had completly superiority in numbers, fought againts outdated MiG-29s, and never had accepted any losses in air combat.

    Now in 2007

    get large number of Su-27s or Eurofighters versus few and old F-15s and you will see similar results.

    get 80 Eurofighters or even a 90 Su-30 MKI supported by 80 Mirage 2000s and MiG-29s versus 20 F-15As like Serbia fought and let us see if the F-15 remains a good aircraft.

    Get 35 F-4s and pit them against 76 Su-27s as Israel did.

    The reality is the F-15 since 1986 is not outstanding and has been the collapse of the Soviet Union and the bankruptcy of Russia that kept the F-15 as the terror of second class militaries.

    In 2007 if i were a general i would purchase Gripens and Eurofighters not F-15s.

    in reply to: F-15, F/A-18 #2505312
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    The F-15A and F-15C are the comtemporaries of the MiG-23ML. The Su-27 came ten years later. The current top western fighter is the F-22A, and can completely dominate anything anyone else can fly.

    The West is best. :dev2:

    The West is best? come on just to do not get in a senseless historical discussion i can say to you each generation of aircraft is always surpassed that is what fuels the armaments race.;)

    in reply to: F-15, F/A-18 #2505313
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    The very fact that MiG 29 and Su 27/30 users still buys the R 27 :diablo: In fact, even in the latest Su 35 brochure issued by Sukhoi, the medium-range missile advertized is the R 27 ๐Ÿ˜€ What ??????????The MiG 31 is, in your opinion equal with the F 22 ???????????? The “kid” is for saying that the R 33 is active ๐Ÿ˜‰

    It is true the R-33 is not active, it is semi active however th Zaslon is a better radar than the AWG-9 and the reason is it can guide four semi active missiles at different targets simultaneously, so indeed i was wrong in the way it works i acknowledge it however it still can be fire simultaneously with other of its kind by the Zaslon.
    nevertheless there is an active radar version of the R-33 the R-33S
    The F-22 by the way is a fifth generation aircraft Russia is now building the PAK FA we can not say it wil be inferior to the F-22.

    however the fact is the F-15 has been surpassed.

    in reply to: F-15, F/A-18 #2505314
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    Kid, do your homework first; the R 33 is semi-active…

    The PLAAF and the IAF purchased thousands of the semi-active R 27 for a very simple reason: the much praised active R 77 is a little piece of crap…

    You are right the R-33 is semi active at least the initial variant, however it still can be fired in groups of four to attack four different targets simoultaneously..Any way my appologies

    in reply to: F-15, F/A-18 #2505374
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    Every radar is reduced in capability by counter-measures. Stealth is a important passiv one, but just one of several. None radar delivers a bubble view around your fighter in real-time, if at all. So wishfull thinking aside and put the performance test-data from producer into the next trasher. It is still questionable to achive a stable search and not even speaking of constant tracking in severe EW conditions.
    Even when you are lucky about that the IFF is under such conditions a further hurdle to overcome.
    The promises about computers in the military and the related super cockpits from the late 80s are becoming reality right now. In that the SH is more advanced than the F-22, but will be overtaken by the F-35. The Flanker upgrades do reaching late F/A-18C/D levels right now.

    Man do not exagerate, the F-18C level was achieved by the Russians in the MiG-29M and early Su-35 in the late 1980s and early 1990s, todays Su-35BM can fire eight AAMs at eight different targets simultaneously.

    http://www.sirviper.com/fighters/mig-29/mig29_9.jpg

    Data link was also a thing known by the Russians since the MiG-31, in fact the MiG-31 was like a mini AWACs for MiG-23s and MiG-25s and it did the same job as GCI systems in the case of the MiG-23P

    That is the typical western attitude of declaring Russian tech is inferior but it is not, Russian technology is simple but practical and in many ways is superior to western technology.

    For example
    The F-15A/C is not as good as the Su-27B however it is comparable
    the F-18A/C is not better than the MiG-29M

    The F-18E is in the same class of the Su-30MK
    the F-15E is in the class of the Su-30MK
    Modern export Russian fighters can fire active homing missiles such as the AA-12
    the Su-34 is in a class beyond the F-18E and F-15E
    There is no Western equivalent to the MiG-31BM

    Do western aircraft sometimes have more advanced features well sometimes, however not always and sometimes they are less capable too

    in reply to: F-15, F/A-18 #2505387
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    That might hold true for the PLAAF after 1989, but I’m sure France would have been only too happy to sell Micas to India. Recently, Israeli missiles have become available to the IAF and yet there is no sign of them replacing the R-27 or R-77 in the MiG-29 MLU (they will however form part of the Mirage2000 upgrade and are being integrated onto the SeaHarrier) or the Su-30 fleet.

    Could it be that the R-27 isn’t quite so bad afterall, making its long range a worthwhile addition to the Su-35’s arsenal? Going by the achievements of even the most recent Sparrow versions, nobody should expect stellar performance from a SARH missile of course, but I see no reason for the R-27 to be significantly worse.

    In the African combat operation, I was always under the impression that it was the pilots who were mercenaries in some cases. That begs the question if the missile’s disappointing performance could be attributed to the targets being flown by crews who were intimately familiar with its strengths and weaknesses, knowing exceptionally well how to defeat it.

    One of the reasons is simple there are a lots of myths abouth the Eritrea Ethiopian war, Russian sources for example will give credit to much fewer MiG-29 losses than acknowledged by Western sources, why? coincidence? well in order to slander russian weaponry you need to inflate the losses, and this is intentional because for western manufactures the Su-27 and MiG-29 are important competitors in the world`s fighter market see

    The Russian federation is the main supplier of arms for Ethiopia. Since Soviet times, Addis-Ababa has had a lot of military hardware that is still being serviced by Russian specialists. In the end of the 1990s, Ethiopia purchased from Moscow 12 SU-27 (from the air force reserve), 10 self-propelled 152 millimeter artillery systems 2S5. During the war with Eritrea, Ethiopian SU-27s proved themselves better than the lighter MiGs. One Eritrean MiG-29 SE was even shot down.

    ะ ะค ัะฒะปัะตั‚ัั ะพัะฝะพะฒะฝั‹ะผ ะฟะพัั‚ะฐะฒั‰ะธะบะพะผ ะพั€ัƒะถะธั ะฒ ะญั„ะธะพะฟะธัŽ. ะ•ั‰ะต ั ัะพะฒะตั‚ัะบะธั… ะฒั€ะตะผะตะฝ ะฒ ัั‚ั€ะฐะฝะต ะพัั‚ะฐะปะพััŒ ะฝะตะผะฐะปะพ ั‚ะตั…ะฝะธะบะธ, ะบะพั‚ะพั€ัƒัŽ ะฟั€ะพะดะพะปะถะฐัŽั‚ ะพะฑัะปัƒะถะธะฒะฐั‚ัŒ ั€ะพััะธะนัะบะธะต ัะฟะตั†ะธะฐะปะธัั‚ั‹. ะ’ ะบะพะฝั†ะต 90-ั… ะณะพะดะพะฒ ะะดะดะธั-ะะฑะตะฑะฐ ะฟั€ะธะพะฑั€ะตะปะฐ ัƒ ะœะพัะบะฒั‹ 12 ะกัƒ-27 (ะธะท ะฝะฐะปะธั‡ะธั ะ’ะ’ะก ะ ะค), 4 ะฟะพะดะตั€ะถะฐะฝะฝั‹ั… ะฒะตั€ั‚ะพะปะตั‚ะฐ ะœะธ-24ะ”, 8 ะฒะพะตะฝะฝะพ-ั‚ั€ะฐะฝัะฟะพั€ั‚ะฝั‹ั… ะฒะตั€ั‚ะพะปะตั‚ะพะฒ ะœะธ-17 ะธ 10 ัะฐะผะพั…ะพะดะฝั‹ั… 152-ะผะผ ะฐั€ั‚ะธะปะปะตั€ะธะนัะบะธั… ัƒัั‚ะฐะฝะพะฒะพะบ 2ะก5. ะ’ ั…ะพะดะต ะฒะพะนะฝั‹ ั ะญั€ะธั‚ั€ะตะตะน ัั„ะธะพะฟัะบะธะต ะกัƒ-27 ะทะฐั€ะตะบะพะผะตะฝะดะพะฒะฐะปะธ ัะตะฑั ะปัƒั‡ัˆะต, ั‡ะตะผ ะปะตะณะบะธะต “ะœะธะ“ะธ” — ะพะดะธะฝ ัั€ะธั‚ั€ะตะนัะบะธะน ะœะธะ“-29ะกะญ ะดะฐะถะต ะฑั‹ะป ัะฑะธั‚.
    source http://www.kommersant.com/page.asp?id=570344

    http://www.kommersant.ru/doc.aspx?DocsID=570344

    in reply to: F-15, F/A-18 #2505412
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    For that capability you are in need of a cooperative target or at least one what is unaware of such threat!
    But you can be shure most of the time, that your opponent is briefed by his intel about that capability, be trained to handle that threat and did plan and fly his mission accordingly.
    Going after AGLMs (robots) is something different.

    It is not like that, the main issue will be if a radar can detect the target even throught the ECM and RCS, the whole idea is have radars that are difficult to jam.

    Data link also helps for that, in few words Sens fighters like the F-15 and F-18 are more or less in the same class, only new aircraft like the F-22 or F-35 can be considered up to a degree inmune to the fourth generation technological level.

    True, it is possible the targets will be difficult to adquire, but by the exception of the F-18E few fourth generation fighter have a high degree of stealthiness.

    http://www.sff.n.se/images_aktu_2002/2002-08-10_002-1013640.jpg

    in reply to: F-15, F/A-18 #2505479
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    Right and wrong in the same way. You are mixing capabilities at wish. Some of that capabilities do work under Swedish conditions only and not all to the max at the same time. When fed by different sensors there and the “unnamed” enemy approaches high over the Baltics in numbers and with clear cut intentions, with hostilities started already.
    About the Su-35B. As long as that rearward sensor do work in a passive mode. Otherwise that use is limited to special conditions to find where?
    Sticking to the Swedish example, every Gripen airborne is linked into the network of much more capable sensors to cover the areas around that Gripen not covered by own sensor for technical reasons.
    Every weapon-system is tailored to a given enviroment and missions in mind.

    Sens

    Fighter evolution has gotten newer radars that allow multitarget engagements, the early fighters of the third generation only could handle one target at at time, the AIM-7 Sparrow and AA-7 Apex were also heavy missiles.
    The first active radar homing air to air missiles were also big and heavy, yeah i am talking about the AIM-54 and R-33, however with the arrival of the AIM-120 and new radars, multi target engagement technology has been increasing the number of targets that can be engaged simultaneously.

    Today`s JAS-39 can carry four AIM-120 and fire 4 AIM-120 simoultaneously at different targets, fire and forget technology has become wide spread in modern fourth generation aircraft.

    The F-18`s fire and forget capability has also grown, this has made smaller aircraft as capable as heavy weight fighters.

    This in fact was the reason that doomed the high maintainance F-14.

    This trend of radar miniaturazation, lightening of Air to AIr missiles has allowed to smaller aircraft carry a similar air defence capability, in fact the JAS-39 is more capable or at least as capable as the F-14 with a reduced weight and price tag.

    The F-18E already has replaced a heavy weight fighter and is as good as the best of F-15 Eagles with a reduced price tag and growm combat capability.
    In fact the F-18E is comparable to bigger aircraft such as the Su-30 or F-15E

    in reply to: F-15, F/A-18 #2505622
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    The AIM 120 is active not semi active…

    sorry i knew it but i forget to fix my mistake my apollogies

    in reply to: F-15, F/A-18 #2505625
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    You really don’t know what you’re talking about. There were thousands US fighters with IRST. Actually they were the first to put on fighter in 1961 on F 101 Vodoo. Every F 102 Delta Dagger, F 106 Delta Dart or F 4 Phantom (over 5000 built) had IRTS!

    All those aircraft are not fourth generation and the F-16, F-15 and F-18 did not use them, until very recently the US has readopted thet trend but early F-15A/C or F-18A/C did not carry an IRST system and since the early MiG-23M the Russian aircraft have carried IRST systems.

    in reply to: F-15, F/A-18 #2505628
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    When was Meteor “fielded”????? Do you know something that we don’t?

    When did the Russains fielded a ramjet AA missile?????

    BTW is there any Su 35 “fielded”?????

    Do you have any contact with real world?

    The Meteor is closer to get fielded than any other Russian or Western equivalent weapon.
    http://www.milavia.net/news/images/gripen_meteor.jpg
    The Rafale has a instantaneous turn rate of more than 30 deg/sec, compared to the F-15 in less than a decade the F-15E will become obsolete in terms of air to air at BVR.

    The Eurofighter is the same and it has supercruise.

    In terms of combat capability the F-15 lost the niche of the best fighter at BVR combat in the late 1990s.

    The F-18E more or less is a modern equivalent of the F-15, in few words aurcov the F-15 in 2007 is more a strike aircraft than a fighter, see that the main version sold is the F-15E.

    in reply to: F-15, F/A-18 #2505648
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    Guessing around again. A computer does not solve your identification problem. Positioning means, that you stay out of the harms way as long as possible. When doing so a threat is gone most of the time and with it your second firing chance. To get the most from training Fox two does follow Fox one.
    In reality your adversary will give you no second chance. Modern Fox two have an all aspect capability.
    When fighting limited robots like ASM, the F-14/AIM-54 or F/A-18E there can not be enough AAMs for a brief period. But that is not typical and limited to special missions in full wartime.

    The MiG-21 is in no way to compare with a F-16. No worthwile radar, thirsty Tj, limited fuel load and outdated aerodynamic. Just cheap to operate with cheap labour at hand. Limited eyesight and ……….

    Sens

    I will give you a simple example, today`s Gripen can guide AAMs at targets by the radar signal of a second Gripen.

    The JAS’s built-in armament consists of a single Mauser 27mm cannon, along with guided weapons to ensure maximum combat effectiveness. Its possible external stores include: Air-to-air missiles (AAMs), primarily the Raytheon AIM-120 AMRAAM. The JAS-39’s PS-05A radar can guide four of these weapons simultaneously. Incidentally, Sweden is the only nation approved by the US to perform flight tests of the AMRAAM.

    and What also works in its favour is its Ericsson PS-05/A pulse doppler radar, which, reportedly, can count anchored ships and follow road traffic at a distance of 90 km, and can pick up fighter targets 120 km away.

    The JAS-39 incorporates the world’s most developed data link systems, which, apart from increasing situation awareness and combat effectiveness, also shorten the sensor-to-shooter loop to near real-time. Saab’s ‘tactical information data link system’ (TIDLS) provides it with multiple facilities. It allows: multiple fighters to lock on to a target’s track through triangulation from several radars;
    one fighter to jam a target even as another tracks it;
    multiple fighters to use different radar frequencies collaboratively to “burn through” jamming transmissions; and,
    the JAS fighter transparent access to the SAAB-Ericsson 340B Erieye “mini-AWACs” aircraft, as well as the overall ground command and control system.

    source
    http://www.domain-b.com/aero/gripen_jas-39.htm

    fighters like the SU-35BM can guide 8 active radar air to air missiles

    The fire control system can simultaneously guide two semi-active radar guided missiles. If used in conjuction with active radar guided missiles, this number is eight.

    and it can use a rear facing radar to guide missiles while it is leaving the battlefield

    Su-35BM also has rearward radar system, to locate and track targets behind aircraft. Rear radar is located in tailcone. Itโ€™s still not known what system is going to use; Tikhomirov NIIP suggested itโ€™s Osa type ESA radar for this task, but has also revealed itโ€™s work on active-array radars that could fill this task, too.
    source

    http://www.aviapedia.com/fighters/su-35bmt-10bm-the-last-flanker

    in reply to: F-15, F/A-18 #2505742
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article4.html

    red that part over F-16C in 1986 in the meanwhile f. e.
    Sorry I forgot, you do ignore details not fixing to your special views.

    For the benefit of all. Radar equipped fighters are limited in view. Just a small sector is covered and shifting it, it does reduce range. Even the AWACS has blind sectors shielded by fuselage and modes. So the AWACS has to fly circles to cover that from time to time during mission. Intel-people do brief their crews about the related radar-capabilities of all parties for mission profiles. Intelligent CGI guideance has to assists the fighters to explore or to avoid that. “Positioning” is the name of the game. You has to “see” and “identify” before you fire your AAM.
    Same problem with every AAM. You have to be shure, what the seeker-head does “see” really, before the AAM is started. You have to be shure, that no friendly fighter passes through the line of flight, when the AAM is fired.
    So in 1982 most of the fighters were unable to fire in anger to the anger of the pilots. Such firing opportunities are limited to a few seconds in multible engagements. In real fights your opponent will disengage most of the time. Just in training exercise more than a single firing opportunity is created for training purposes. Typical weaponsload is no more than 4 AAMs for practical reasons. In 1991 the US fighters were limited to visual ID Rules of Engagement for good reasons.

    The few Iraqi opponents did not face that problem for obvious reasons, when chased by own SAMs/AAA too.
    In 1973 several Arab SAM-kills were own MiGs, when no time was left to coordinate the own AD properly. (~50 losses) By the way one of the reason, why ground defences are limited in number.

    Modern aircraft have better processing radar computer and have also multi-engagement capability, even old fighter like the Su-27 and F-14 wiil carry 6 long range air to air missiles

    http://wmilitary.neurok.ru/su27/su27-9.jpg

    http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/airdef/su-27-DDST8809324_JPG.jpg
    The whole idea behind a long range fighter is long radar detection range and engagement at long distance

    fighters like the MiG-23 or early F-18 would had dispatched one or two targets at long range before coming at close range and dispatch one or two more at close combat.

    In the MiG-23 quick and brief attack at high speeds; in the MiG-29 and F-18 a close combat mellee was not out of the question.

    The F-16 was different it was a point defence fighter like the MiG-21 it relied in close combat and a short flight to the target.

    It was not an scort aircraft, in bombing misions it was to be scorted by F-15s

    in reply to: F-15, F/A-18 #2505855
    MiG-23MLD
    Participant

    Funny, this statement has nothing to do with your previous, where you hailed BVR and the ability to fire semi-active radar-homing missiles with the help of radar.
    BTW, a useful multi-mode radar can give pretty much the same information, it is even less weather-dependent (though detectable, to admit that).

    Air combat has basicly three phases detect fire and leave.

    Now If the F-15 has a better detection range and long range missiles it will beat the F-16 theoretically speaking, same will be with the F-18 or MiG-29.

    The main issue here is how jam proof is the radar, if the MiG-29, F-16 and F-18 can jam the F-15 Eagle reducing the detection range well that dogfighters will have some chances.

    Under the best of conditions the F-15 will jam the MiG-29 radar, will launch the AIM-120 and the semi active radar missile will do the rest, leaving the F-15 plenty of time to leave from the battlefield.

    At close range the MiG-29 in the early 1980s had the advange of a missile, the AA-11, with better range than the AIM-9L, at close combat it was better.

    now in 2007 basicly all the current versions of MiG-29, F-18 and F-16 can fire AIM-120 or AA-12s, so basicly here is who has the best radar will decide who wins.

    however the Russians also detected targest with IRSTs and fire their missiles with them since the early 1980s.

    Modern F-16s and F-18s have the same capability that modern F-15s have and basicly none of these aircraft has fielded a weapon in the class of the Meteor with the exception of the Russians with their Su-35s or the Europeans with the Eurocanards.

    conclusion is to me simple the F-18E and F-16 are still cost effective

Viewing 15 posts - 1,246 through 1,260 (of 2,930 total)