Who cares ! This forum functions much better with aeroplanes as the matter in question.

Many of us do. Well, at least some of us do. Sadly, the Forum all too often drifts off aeroplanes and “talks” about things other. And when it does, the Forum is all too often the source of innuendo, rumours, unsubstantiated “facts”, etc., (“I was in the hangar the other day and heard…”) unless someone asks the questions and challenges the them they become “facts”. Too often people opine on things they know nothing about. Make rash statements as if they were there or know the more than they do, when they know nothing of the facts. How many times has the Forum been the source of misinformation?

The Forum is a fantastic place. So much great exchange of knowledge and ideas. It is when it is the “forum” drifts and becomes a platform for the poorly informed and willing to pontificate that it does itself an injustice. Unless someone is willing to challenge the incorrect, misinformation, etc., …

But I guess that is the cost of free speech.

Thank you Dave. Please don’t denigrate the RAFM. They are good and smart, probably overworked and underpaid. The Kittyhawk is way down on the list of priorities. Staying a first class organisation in today’s world is their first, and they are working hard at it. As to the Kittyhawk specifically, firstly, they have no obligation to supply this forum with internal and confidential information, or any information at all. Where does it say that in the Museum’s charger? As much as they might (and I don’t speak for them) want to comment, I believe they have opted to limit comment, for, secondly, as I have said before, media exposure does nothing to help get the Kittyhawk back to the UK, unless it is good exposure. The Egyptians are not stupid (just as the RAFM is not stupid) and are sensitive to media commentary. IMHO (not always H), people must get off their horses and put the other riders’ shoes on. It is very easy for armchair experts to pontificate on a Monday morning the weekend’s events. It is much more difficult to live the weekend. Thanks for listening. Tim Manna, Kennet Aviation, off my horse.

I am sorry Whitley_Project, I don’t know you or your history. You may be the expert in aircraft recovery. But are you comparing an apple you have been involved with, with this apple?

How you know, “these figures do not add up…” when you don’t even know the figures is beyond me. And how, not even knowing the figures, you can give assurance.

Again, my beef with this thread and the Forum in general is the proliferation of unsubstantiated opinions, etc.

And, in all my dealings, Mark12 has been an honest agent and nothing but helpful, and never asked for compensation.

Tim Manna
Kennet Aviation

From Pat1968; “I, like many others on this forum and more importantly Dennis Coppings family have been unable to get to the bottom of the actions of the RAFM and their agents in this matter as they have avoided accounting for those actions at every juncture using spurious excuses.”

I try to keep out of these things but every once in a while there comes a time when I feel it necessary to “jump” in. I find it incredible that people with little of no knowledge of the actual undertakings can be so willing to voice opinions that are not facts.

To set the record straight; Paul Collins, Capt, RN, Defence Attache in Cairo at the time, and without whose help nothing would have ever happened to the Kittyhawk in any reasonable amount of time, if at all, and I met with the family at the Royal Geographic Society for over three hours. During that time we gave a full accounting of all of our actions, the mission, the ins, the outs, the politics, etc. Even the monies involved. We showed them all of 1,800 plus pictures. We assured them that this was not in any way a money making enterprise in any way on our part (I now can assume National Geographic is purely charitable).

We emphasised that our only desire was for the Kittyhawk to be returned to the RAFM and displayed as closely as possible to its situation as found. We emphasised that in our belief it would be a fitting memorial to those who gave their lives in the Desert Campaign, and the Sgt’s role in that would be highlighted. Again, our desire and belief was and is that it would be worth the efforts of all involved.

A very detailed summary of the MoD’s activities with regard to the Italians and the Egyptians was presented to them. That is not my pew in the church to talk accurately about other than to say they fully accepted the “realities” of the situation.

We entered the meeting as devils incarnate, probably due to the impressions and implications of others. We left as friends, with both the nephew and his wife thanking us for our time and efforts, not just in the desert, but in trying to keep Dennis’s memory alive. They offered to help in any way they could. They offered to go to Egypt with us. We, as we have from the beginning, said that our goal was to get the Kittyhawk back to the UK and media attention, in our opinion was not helpful. They reiterated that they were available if we needed their help. We thanked them for this and promised to keep them in touch as progress was made, and to certainly be part of any repatriation.

We were in the desert for four days and three nights. The temperature was over 50 degrees C during the day. Sleeping in tents during the day was unbearable. We worked at night when the temperatures were in the balmy 30-35 degrees C. Every morning and evening, while there was still light, I personally walked around the Kittyhawk in all directions looking for any trace of anything, including the Sgt. I went as far as I could keeping the Kittyhawk in sight. My guess is that this was over a mile in some directions as the terrain was not level and the Kittyhawk could be seen from a good distance in some directions, not far in others. The terrain was difficult to say the least. I was not the only one of the team that did such. We are not all heartless ba*tards.

Comparing the Kittyhawk recovery to any other recovery may be like comparing apples to apples, or apples to crabapples, or apples to oranges. One will never know. My guess is that it is never apples to apples. No two projects are the same. What was a going on at the time in Egypt was unique (once in a hundred years? Thousand?)

Anyone who thinks this project could have been done for less than £120k knows nothing of the realities of the situation. National Geographic may have said they would fund it, but I doubt whether they saw the “quote”. Maybe when they saw the “quote” they might have jumped on it. Maybe not. We will never know.

Now, against my better judgement, to put the cat among the pigeons, Kennet Aviation was not the first choice to recover the Kittyhawk. A/the “free” option was certainly number one on the table. Does anyone think the RAFM’s executives are that stupid? Clearly some here do, which in my mind is unfair and unreal. The “reality” of it all was that I sat with the DG of the RAFM for over two weeks, while working on another project, waiting for something hard and unrefutable to come through from the free camp. Oh, by the way, there was more than one “free” option. It is amazing how people can be “out of town” so often.

The RAFM was under pressure from those on the ground in Egypt to make a move. The decision was to give the parties one more week to come through with the goods, which were not forthcoming on the Monday deadline. Therefore Kennet Aviation volunteered to and was asked to step in.

Regardless of who went into the desert in July of 2012, my guess is the outcome would be the same. The DA was busy with riots, etc, not Kittyhawks. No one would have made it there before that. My guess is that a professional media organisation would need far more time. Our team was light and nimble and not burdened by camera crews, production people, etc.

The political climate and personnel changed dramatically, between June and October, and all previously negotiated agreements fell off the table. Despite great efforts by many heavyweight people, we are where we are. If anyone thinks that anything that has been said on this Forum re the Kittyhawk has been helpful, I suggest he or she thinks again.

I hope that all this bickering might stop, and all this energy put into supporting the Museum and the family. No now has a monopoly on hindsight. And there seems to be too many personal axes to grind. I apologise if this is seen as an axe. I am sure there will be many arrows.

Thank you for listening.

Respectfully submitted,
Tim Manna
Kennet Aviation

To be fair, this all happened some time after the ‘Arab Spring’, and the political situation in Egypt had already been in turmoil for a year or so by then.

It’s a completely bizarre notion that a display of a wrecked Kittyhawk is of more value than finding and burying the mortal remains of her unfortunate pilot and giving him a plaque inscribed
with his name in a remote part of the world. !

The reality of this story is that aircraft enthusiasts find it exciting ! It’s a no more or less significant than the likes of the Halifax wreckage. Just in the case of the P-40 it happened to crash in a remote part of the world. Any closer to civilisation and it would have been scrapped years ago.

Regards her pilot and the notion that he would have wanted her displayed – how could we possibly
know this ? He might if he be alive
curse his luck or judgement ! We don’t know why it was there – what really happened and will never know.

I must echo Tail Gunner’s point of view. He did not say that he knew what Flt Sgt Copping thought or is thinking, only that if it was he, he would find the Kittyhawk displayed at the RAFM of more value than finding and burying bones in the desert. I repeat TG’s point of view, If I were he.

And I would agree, and again, read the words, If I were he (not that he is here to talk to us), I would not give a hoot about my bones, but care more that the world knew what the price of war and combat and all the other things we fought for were.

I find it difficult to fathom that over 4,000 British soldiers were lost and unaccounted for in the Desert Campaign, and we get so excited about one. What about the other 3,999?

I too look forward to dinner and meeting Mr Pryor-Bennet.
Tim

Or you were simply blowing smoke from your fundament.

Ah, just the cogent and witty remark one would expect from a moderator. Well done!

You choose.

Moggy[/QUOTE]

I’m sorry. When did I ever say or imply that an internet forum might ever ensure the safety of an airframe?

Odd then that you should imply that it was ever a possibility.

Moggy