BlackArcherI’ve seen a similar kind of concept being advertised for the Klub..a container that could be stationary or be carried on a railway bogey and look like any other cargo container. Would be very hard to neutralise something like that without very very specific intelligence and a platform nearby to act as a shooter to take it down.
BlackArcherThat deal was inked back in 2013. I guess it has something to do with cost.
HAL has its own overhaul fasillity, but they do not construct and assembly AL-31PF engines.
They do- Koraput is where the assembly plant is located.
BlackArcherThe biggest drawback of more MKI is the continuation of an airframe designed in the 70’s. (The F-15E being even older!). If the deal with Rafale falls through then at least Typhoon is a leap forward in that respect. I always thought Rafale was more refined than Typhoon, but its purely my opinion. Without other more modern options on the market its a no brainer.
You (Rii) mentioned engine importation which we all know if inevitable. I doubt India could re-engineer the MKI nozzle for F100 or F110, but it certainly would be a leap in technology over the current import. Single engine fighters are important in the grand scheme and would it really be a disappointment to see a single engine AMCA rather than a twin engine design?
With FGFA turning into a drawn out affair, the IAF needs to worry about that program slipping schedule, too. F-16IN (Blk 60+) isn’t a bad option in the short term as leverage against both FGFA and Rafale programs.
I don’t understand..India already knows just how to use composites in airframe design, the Dhruv and the LCA being testament to that..so the Rafale ToT on airframe manufacture didn’t necessarily give India a big jump in an area where it was lagging as such..some manufacturing technologies perhaps, but certainly not in composite structures.
And the MKI’s construction hardly dictates how it fares in the air, does it? It may make it more maintenance intensive, but the airframe itself has 6000 hours of life, which is adequate and so far we’ve not seen any issues with the MKI’s airframe with relation to fatigue. So what is the primary concern here?
As for the Typhoon- I’d rather the entire tender be scrapped than going for it. Its expensive to buy, operate and offers marginal advantages over the MKI that cannot be made up by the much higher unit cost. The Typhoon is a maintenance hog as well, which still isn’t a fully multi-role aircraft like the Rafale. The consortium approach really has taken its toll on the capabilities that it gets, versus the Rafale, which without a shadow of a doubt, is the best non 5th gen fighter out there.
if at all another fighter should be looked at, IMHO, it should be the Super Hornet with the roadmap to get the Advanced Super Hornet eventually. And with Growlers added to the purchase. Sounds unlikely, but who knows what’ll happen if the tender does get scrapped? the IAF really has shown no great interest in the F-16 IN that was offered and it would likely be the lowest on the list of replacement options- lower even than the MiG-35, since the IN has had a decent enough experience with its MiG-29Ks.
As for the AMCA – it’s going the twin engine way – there is next to nil chance of it being changed to a single engine design this late. Besides, there just are more options with the twin engine design, but for a single engine design, just what engine choices exist apart from the F135?
BlackArcherAnd in more news, the Indian Defence Secretary and a senior HAL official are in Paris for negotiations..
Indian Defence Secretary in France for Rafale Talks
NEW DELHI — Indian Defence Secretary Radha Krishna Mathur is in Paris Monday and Tuesday to help speed negotiations on the Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) program, an Indian Defence Ministry source said. A senior official of state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) is accompanying Mathur, the official said.
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Under terms of purchase, the first 18 aircraft will come in fly-away condition while the remaining 108 will be manufactured under a technology transfer process. Out of the 108 aircraft to be license-produced in India, 74 would be single-seat and 34 twin-seat aircraft.
Even as HAL is finalizing the cost of the Indian-made Rafales, HAL is insisting that Dassault guarantee the delivery schedule because hundreds of spares and subsystems will be supplied by the French.
French officials have said they can assist HAL in the delivery schedule and help lower the cost of the Indian-made Rafales, but cannot give guarantees.
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BlackArcherScrapping of the Rafale deal could end up being a boon for the Tejas program, as more resources would be poured into the assembly line for the Tejas Mk1 and more funding for the Mk2 program as well to speed it up if possible. Super-30 upgrades too would get a boost. If the Rafale deal does go through funding for a bunch of other IAF programs will get tied up, which many believe would be detrimental to the local industry and the IAF as well.
BlackArcherBlackArcherThe life extended M2000-5s in French service are good for 7,500hrs and this is being increased to 9,000hrs, so about 50% more life than a Su-30.
India’s Mirages haven’t flown that much by Western standards (less than 165 hours/year) so even the 30 year old fleet leaders are still under 5,000hrs. So if they can now extend the life to 9,000hrs like the French did, then the upgrade will give them the IAF the equivalent of 1 brand new Mig 29 or 2/3 new Su-30 lifetimes.
Pretty good deal IMHO.
What 2/3 new Su-30 lifetimes? The Su-30MKI has a service life of 6000 hours and that may also well get extended based on fatigue studies that will be carried out whenever they approach the latter period of their service life.
I know that the Mirage-2000 has plenty of life left in its airframe, but the original service life of both the Mirage-2000 and the Su-30MKI is 6000 hours and we don’t know exactly how much additional life the IAF will get out of its Mirage upgrade nor from the Su-30MKI SLEP that will come eventually.
BlackArcherNEW DELHI: India plans to kick-off its own fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) development project this year to build on the expertise gained in the long developmental saga of the indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft.
Top defence sources on Wednesday said the preliminary design stage of the futuristic fighter called the advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA), with collaboration among IAF, DRDO and Aeronautical Development Agency, is now “virtually” over.
“Once the project definition and feasibility is completed in the next few months, the defence ministry will go to the cabinet committee on security for approval. It will require Rs 4,000-5,000 crore for the initial design and development phase,” said a source.
The aim is to fly the first twin-engine AMCA prototype by 2023-2024, which will be around the time deliveries of Tejas Mark-II fighters will be underway. IAF is slated to get its first Tejas Mark-I in March this year, over 30 years after the LCA project was first approved in August 1983. But the Tejas Mark-II jets, with more powerful engines, will start to come only by 2021-2022, as was first reported by TOI.
“After Tejas-II, we have to move ahead to a fifth-generation-plus AMCA. Basic design work of AMCA as well as presentations by five to six global aero-engine manufacturers is over. Simulation modelling is also in the works,” said the source.
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BlackArcherAnd re-lifed airframe. They’re supposed to have more airframe hours after the upgrade than a new-build Su-30.
Not quite. the Su-30 has an airframe life of 6000 hours
A Su-30MKI is overhauled after flying 1,500 hours or 14 years, whichever is earlier. Over its total service life of 6,000 flying hours or 30-40 years, each fighter undergoes three overhauls. Eventually, the IAF’s fleet of 272 Su-30MKIs will undergo 816 overhauls – three per fighter.
The Mirage-2000 would in total exceed the 6000 hours original service life with additional few thousand hours, but there is no source for how much additional service life is going to be obtained. FYI, HAL had reported that the Mirage airframe was exceptionally robust, with overhauls revealing no fatigue issues with the airframe at all, unlike in the case of the Jaguar where every 1 out of 5 Jaguars overhauled had some fatigue cracks reported.
BlackArcherThe MiG-29 may not see any AESA retrofits since most MiG-29s are on the way out or being operated by nations that won’t be able to afford the scale of an SMT type upgrade with new development and integration costs for the Phazotron AESA that was demonstrated on the MiG-35 demonstrator.
the MiG-29K/KUBs of the IN and the RN will be the likeliest MiG-29 variant candidates when they’re up for MLUs in the late 2020 timeframe.
BlackArcherNot to mention the countries that licence build german sub designs … (e.g. Italy, Turkey, Greece, India, Brazil).. or French designs (Spain, Pakistan)
India licence built the U-209 decades ago but currently is in the process of building French Scorpenes.
BlackArcherPart of the reason for keeping so many types going is the declining number of squadrons and the target number of required squadrons. In addition, the long delayed development of the LCA is running to over 30 years, with lacklustre enthusiasm from the IAF for only 40 so far for the MKI. It’s important to remember that the Mig-21 still makes up the bulk of the fleet.
no, it doesn’t. There are fewer than 200 MiG-21s left in the fleet now, most of them the upgraded Bisons and in 2-3 years there won’t be any MiG-21 type other than the Bison in service. As of today, there are more Su-30MKIs in IAF service.
It made ample sense for the IAF to upgrade the MiG-29, Mirage-2000 and Jaguar fleets since they have the infrastructure in place and with relatively affordable (at least in the case of MiG-29 and Jaguar) upgrades, they can be retained for another 10-15 years.
Not very different from what your air force is having to do with its F-16 A/Bs of similar vintage. Because with an upgrade, the F-16 offers a very decent level of capability, better than the newest type in service, the JF-17..which is why they’re continuing to look for more second-hand F-16s even with the second block of JF-17s entering service.
The MiG-21 situation in the IAF is similar to that of the F-7 and Mirages of all vintages that the PAF is keeping in service just to keep up numbers. Both types have the highest attrition figures in the PAF, yet they will only be replaced as and when more JF-17s or second-hand F-16s become available. Budgets are much much tighter for the PAF than for the IAF, whereas the IAF is hamstrung by bureaucracy more than the PAF is.
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