eagle1For the record from aviation week on rafale new standards :
France has also announced big investments for Rafale. Dassault has already inducted the first of the French Navy Rafale F1-standard aircraft to begin an upgrade to the latest service configuration, F3-04T, which includes the active, electronically scanned array (AESA) version of the RBE2 radar and the DDM-NG missile-warning system. The program goal is to retain all the aircraft in service through rolling upgrades, the company says.
The DDM-NG, part of the Thales/MBDA Spectra defensive avionics suite, comprises two imaging infra-red sensors located on either side of the fighter’s fin-tip pod, each with a hemispherical field of view and jointly providing full spherical coverage other than the area blanked by the fighter’s wing. Its ability to detect and track other targets, such as aircraft, is classified, according to Dassault.
In January, the French defense ministry awarded Dassault a contract for the next major Rafale upgrade, known as F3-R.
It includes more powerful processors and upgrades to the Multi-functional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminal datalink and the automatic ground collision avoidance system.
For tactical and strategic reconnaissance missions, F3-R will include in-cockpit replay and analysis of imagery from the Thales Areos long-range oblique photography (Lorop) reconnaissance pod. The Rafale pilot or weapon system operator will be able to review imagery without interrupting the pod’s collection process.
The upgrade will also see a series of improvements to Spectra. Developed by Thales and MBDA, Spectra is a fully automated system that provides electromagnetic detection, laser and missile warning, jamming and four chaff/flare dispensers. French industry sources say that during operations over Libya in 2011, Rafale literally disappeared from the radar screens of the Libyan air force, performing “soft kills” on enemy radar systems [already related in one of the lastest issue of FOX3].
Bruno Carrara, director of the Rafale program at Thales, says the F3-R upgrade will involve a more advanced electromagnetic detection capability based on new digital wide-band-receiver technologies, improving the suite’s spectrum analysis as well as its instantaneous interception capability.
Thales will also update Spectra’s solid-state jamming subsystem, which was one of the first to use electronically steered phased-array antennas. Carrara says for F3R, Spectra will include more powerful antennas, while further increasing the power supply so that more threats can be jammed simultaneously. Like Saab, Thales will use GaN technology because of its power and efficiency.
Since the late 1990s, Spectra’s designers have dropped hints that the system can perform “active cancellation”—receiving a radar signal and mimicking the aircraft’s echo exactly one-half wavelength out of phase so the radar sees nothing.
Carrara again implies that such a capability is in use: “There are other strategies, such as generating signals that will encompass or be higher than the echo from the aircraft, so that the radar threat will receive a signal that will mask the echo from the aircraft,” Carrara says. “Instead of creating a false echo and drawing the radar to the wrong place, the idea is to produce a signal that will mask the echo of the aircraft, so the radar will be unable to detect the aircraft Spectra is protecting.”[…]
eagle1Any info on India Hallo ?
eagle1Possibly Egypt at the end of this months for 12 or even 24 more. They just got the clearance from France for a loan a few days ago as Sissi asked to lift the option. French minister of Defense flew ahead of President visit to close the deal presumably. It should be announced during his next trip to Egypt.
eagle1eagle1, thanks.
I am still not sure about the “active cancellation” parth though — no doubt SPECTRA has jamming modes that can make the Rafale “invisible” to radar, however I believe there are techniques that can be used that are not based on producing an echo that is out of phase. Seems tricky to do.
I wonder what extras the Indians have ordered… As far as I can recall one of the things was that they will expand the SPECTRA bandwidth even further!?
I may be wrong but most probably indian upgrade for spectra is just the upgrade from F3-OT4 currently in use to the F3R or perhaps a standard in between F3R and F4.
eagle1“Over the coming months” — sounds like F3R to me? Or is this referring to F4?
Loke, yes it is related to the F3R and it will be operational in early 2019 :
From aviation week published a few years ago:
France has also announced big investments for Rafale. Dassault has already inducted the first of the French Navy Rafale F1-standard aircraft to begin an upgrade to the latest service configuration, F3-04T, which includes the active, electronically scanned array (AESA) version of the RBE2 radar and the DDM-NG missile-warning system. The program goal is to retain all the aircraft in service through rolling upgrades, the company says.
The DDM-NG, part of the Thales/MBDA Spectra defensive avionics suite, comprises two imaging infra-red sensors located on either side of the fighter’s fin-tip pod, each with a hemispherical field of view and jointly providing full spherical coverage other than the area blanked by the fighter’s wing. Its ability to detect and track other targets, such as aircraft, is classified, according to Dassault.
In January, the French defense ministry awarded Dassault a contract for the next major Rafale upgrade, known as F3-R.
It includes more powerful processors and upgrades to the Multi-functional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminal datalink and the automatic ground collision avoidance system.
For tactical and strategic reconnaissance missions, F3-R will include in-cockpit replay and analysis of imagery from the Thales Areos long-range oblique photography (Lorop) reconnaissance pod. The Rafale pilot or weapon system operator will be able to review imagery without interrupting the pod’s collection process.
The upgrade will also see a series of improvements to Spectra. Developed by Thales and MBDA, Spectra is a fully automated system that provides electromagnetic detection, laser and missile warning, jamming and four chaff/flare dispensers. French industry sources say that during operations over Libya in 2011, Rafale literally disappeared from the radar screens of the Libyan air force, performing “soft kills” on enemy radar systems [already related in one of the lastest issue of FOX3].
Bruno Carrara, director of the Rafale program at Thales, says the F3-R upgrade will involve a more advanced electromagnetic detection capability based on new digital wide-band-receiver technologies, improving the suite’s spectrum analysis as well as its instantaneous interception capability.
Thales will also update Spectra’s solid-state jamming subsystem, which was one of the first to use electronically steered phased-array antennas. Carrara says for F3R, Spectra will include more powerful antennas, while further increasing the power supply so that more threats can be jammed simultaneously. Like Saab, Thales will use GaN technology because of its power and efficiency.
Since the late 1990s, Spectra’s designers have dropped hints that the system can perform “active cancellation”—receiving a radar signal and mimicking the aircraft’s echo exactly one-half wavelength out of phase so the radar sees nothing.
Carrara again implies that such a capability is in use: “There are other strategies, such as generating signals that will encompass or be higher than the echo from the aircraft, so that the radar threat will receive a signal that will mask the echo from the aircraft,” Carrara says. “Instead of creating a false echo and drawing the radar to the wrong place, the idea is to produce a signal that will mask the echo of the aircraft, so the radar will be unable to detect the aircraft Spectra is protecting.”[…]
eagle1Please explain how the AMRAAM has anything to do with situational awareness. He specifically states the Mirage 2000C was outclassed. That is not just due to the AMRAAM, it was due to a significantly more powerful radar with LPI modes, sophisticated NCTR, JTIDS, AN/ALQ-135. The RDI was considered roughly comparable to the F-16’s AN/APG-68, even by the Greeks who operated both!
He flew the mirage 2000C RDI between 1993-1997 not in 1989. Unlike the F15, The M2k RDI did not evolve. To operate a “fire and forget” missile you need significant radar improvements such as a datalink and increased performance/calculators to be able to track and engage several targets simultaneously. For instance the RDI has never been able to handle such type of missiles. So it is an unfair comparison which is beside the point of the thread which is to talk of fighter jets in 1989. You should compare the F15C with amraam with the mirage 2000-5. The mirage 2000C RDI should be compared to F15C with Sparrow. By the way Taiwanese mirage 2000-5 were fielded earlier than the french air force so that would be very valid.
In 1989 it certainly did not lack in situation awarness:
“As a weapons system the Mirage 2000 is a great ‘package’ with a good radar , onboard electronic countermeasures and radar warning receiver. It also packs a good array of weapons – with air-to-air refuelling its a formidable fighter. “
eagle1Final comment then done on this, here is an interview with a RAF exchange pilot on the Mirage 2000C.
Especially note the part about the F-15C. He mentions AMRAAM, but more importantly was his comment on SA (which has zero to do with the missile)
I already know this interview, but you are beside the point, we are talking of year 1989 and at that date there were no amraam in front line squadron. Clearly the mirage 2000C RDI was outclassed by F15C with amraam in the 90’s but also other platforms using the amraam. But in 1989, an operational mirage 2000C RDI had not a lot to fear from a F15C. The situation changed with the mirage 2000-5 which would be a more fair comparison. It clearly outclassed aircrafts with AIM-120A & B. When the AIM-120C-5 was fielded, the “dash five” was more evenely matched. Note that in the interview he said that the “older genartion did not stand a chance” vs the mirage 2000C RDI – given he takes the F16 block-50 as a reference that give you quite a margin in 1989…
eagle1for very good reason, at the start of 1989 France had 50 odd Mirage 2000C of which 37 had the RDM radar. There was one unit going through IOC with the RDI and 530D. If your going to claim these were operational, then so was the AMRAAM that was being fielded by the 33rd TFW (and actually more AMRAAM had been manufactured than 530D by ’89).
By what logic you can claim the RDI and Super 530D was superior to the AN/APG-63 or 70 MSIP II and Aim-7F/P, I cannot guess. Both were look down/shootdown capable, the latter radars had much longer range and superior NCTR capabilities.
Whatever the bad rep the Aim-7 gets, it was an effective weapon by ’89 in the M/P variants, that was lighter than the Super 530D, longer ranged, and the F-15 was capable of carrying more than two.
Not going to get into your comments over the Super 530 shooting down an Iranian F-14, except that Iraq had 88 Mirage F-1 and were supplied with super 530F missiles. 9 of those were lost to coalition aircraft with zero confirmed kills (conflicting reports on the EF-111). Not to mention, the Gulf War was not a proud moment for the Armée de l’Air, they were relegated to secondary roles as they found out they were ill equipped for modern air warfare. The embarrassment led to a considerable modernization push and integration with allies. The result was effective force by the end of the 90’s.
The mirage 2000C RDI was operational since 1987 with the armée de l’air, we are not talking of a dedicated test squadron. This is not the same thing. As for the mirage F1 it did score a kill on Iranian F14 on July 19th 1988 with a super 530 piloted by iraqi pilot Ali Sabah. The Iranian pilot Gholamreza Nezamabadi managed to eject. The mirage F1 scored other kills but not with the Super 530.
As for the French air Force in the gulf war, it perhaps had shortcomings in terms of Nato interoperability which might have hindered its ability to participate in a coalition, but that has nothing to do with the mirage 2000C as a platform and weapon system which was in 1989 probably the best air superiority aircraft at that date.
eagle1IIRC Indian Air Force considers MiG-29 radar + R-27R superior to Mirage 2000 + Super-530D. In the late 80s Soviet Union had MiG-29 9.13 Fulcrum-C with L-203BE Gardenyia-1 ECM system by the way.
Su-27, F-15 or MiG-31 would be my choices.
Indian mirage had the older RDM radar not the RDI if I am not mistaken. Do you have a source ? I never heard about it from the IAF, only for dogfighting. Mirage 2000 + RDI and SUPER 530D were a superior combo in 1989.
eagle1For the record regarding rafale in India :
*******
eagle1That is absurd, the super 530F was a heavy SARH missile with shorter range and limited envelope against maneuvering targets than the AIM-7F/P. And exactly how was the RDM a “true look down/shoot down radar” compared to the AN/APG-63 MSIP II (or AN/APG-70)
The consensus would be the F-15C MSIP II was the “premier air superiority aircraft” of the West in the late 80’s and it wasn’t particularly close. The M2000C still in the nascent stage of it’s development despite it’s introduction in the mid 80’s particularly in regard to radar performance.
Had even Dassault believed Mirage 2000C equaled or exceeded the capabilities of the early F-15, they wouldn’t have funded the Mirage 4000 for a possible export market. A better question would be if Belgium and the Netherlands would have been better off with a split buy of F-16’s and Mirage 2000’s, 2 ATAF was lacking in BVR capable fighters in 1989, and would have been at a severe disadvantage vs. Soviet frontal aviation (especially considering the MiG-29’s had HMS and R-73 to counter the knife fighting ability of the F-16). Hindsight being 20/20 and no one knowing the AMRAAM was going to be five years late.
Why are you talking about the 530F and RDM radar ? We are talking about the 530D and the RDI radar which entered in front line service in 1987, it is perfectly valid for 1989. The Super 530D is longer and heavier than the 530F with up to date electronics and was designed to intercept MIG-25. it could fly at mach 4,5 and could reach +9000 m in elevation compared to the firing aircraft, it was a very impressive missile until multi-target missiles (fire and forget) became the norm. It has characteristics the Sparrow just could not match. In exercises in the late 80’s the mirage 2000C RDI dominated the arena even against F15C, F16 etc…Less so (to say the least) a few years later when the Amraam came in numbers. Only when the 2000-5 with mica arrived it regained a clear edge in the late 90’s (scoring 40-1 against modern NATO jet in its first exercise) …until the AIM-120C-5 was fielded which has a slightly greater range than the Mica.
If an older mirage F1 can shoot down an F14 in actual BVR combat like it did in 1988, you can guess the differential with the Mirage 2000C RDI with Super 530D in 1989 vs F14 and F15.
As for the mirage 4000 vs F15, a bigger aircraft has its advantage giving you a better endurance in combat but it has also downside like an increased RCS. The point is in 1989, the mirage 2000C RDI was at the very top of western air superiority fighter. A few years later this same aircraft was outclassed when “fire and forget’ missiles became the norm, but right in 1989 it could dominate F15C and F14 relatively easily – everything else being equal. The question was what aircraft would you pick in 1989 (stand alone).
eagle1Super 530D has no track record to suggest any advantage over anything else.
During that era F-15C and F-14A were in their prime. Situational awareness was key. AWACS support of Sparrow/Skyflash equipped fighters was king at the time.
AIM-54 and R-33, like Super 530D, were big missiles with no track record to base superiority on. The Pk of missiles approached zero as range grew.
That’s incorrect, the Super 530 does have a track record in actual combat…Against F14 mind you. Even a older generation mirage F1 with an older radar could down an F14 with its super 530 like in the Irak-Iran war (on july 19th, 1988). So I let you imagine what could a newer generation mirage 2000C RDI with the latest version of the Super 530 do in 1989 – It had a very modern EW suite for the time as well along with a true look down/shoot down radar which was quite tricky at that time. Until the Amraam replaced the sparrow, the mirage 2000C RDI was at the top of what the west could offer in terms of air superiority – from 1986 to early 90’s when the Amraam was fielded in numbers.
For the record the SUPER 530D is a mach 4,5 missile designed to take down mach 3 MIG-25. It was way superior to the Arrow. Everything else being equal, the mirage 2000C RDI is definitely the best choice in 1989 for air superiority.
eagle1Mirage 2000C RDI (look down&shoot down radar) with its Mach 4,5 SUPER 530D.
just before the AMRAAM became widespread it was the best frontline western air superiority fighter. There was a short period where it was at the very top: 1986 till early 1990’s. 1989 was right in its peak of glory as a modern system.
Only when the mirage 2000-5 with Mica was released later in the 1990’s the type regained an edge vs early version of AMRAAM (A&B)…Until AIM120C-5 came in number…It was then more evenly matched.
eagle112 or 24 more rafales for Egypt to be very probably signed late January/early February during Macron’s visit.
eagle1This is somewhat true and also the UAE was furious after the interview of French Gen in DSI magazine about some technical aspect of the negociation at that time. I bet they learnt their lessons. As for western countries I would say that you are right in most cases but not only because of F35 technology it is also due to the fact that buying the F35 means that you politically count on the US as an ally in case of conflict and you adhere to its foreign policy. It is much more than the aircraft in itself. As an exception, I would not agree that Switzerland would automatically go for the F35.
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