At which point will we see the weapons pods and CFT with RCS enhancement Tranche?

Is that 5?

These are just options, it has not been decided yet. DERIDA demonstrator focuses on stealth & survivability without altering rafale proven aerodynamics. It is quite secretive but other paths could be chosen to reach that goal.

Saying Spectra is better than F-16CJ without HTS is kinda an empty victory, that like claiming you can shot further than an airplane without missiles.

You miss the point, the idea was to tell that spectra is integrated into rafale airframe (it is always there whatever the mission) so you always have this capability.

Can you post the links or screenshot of this? Because it doesn’t look like an official interview on magazine to me.

Indeed, it was a “questions and answers” chat on France Television site with random people. Unfortunately the link is dead now but as it was copy pasted on various forums, the content has been salvaged. However Capitaine Romain is not an unknown pilot as he has published a book on the rafale :

[ATTACH=CONFIG]258818[/ATTACH]

The cannon and bell feed are behind the radar, there is a hole leading to front but it has very small diameter because M61 is a 20 mm cannon. Anyway, APG-79 is big because it is canted at around 60°, physical T/R modules count give around 1363 modules.

I haven’t seen the interview but how can he know how well APG-79 performed? If 2 radar made by the same company then i get his point but APG-79 is made by Raytheon rather than Thales

I haven’t count modules for rafale or SH as, at least for the rafale, there is no official information except “more than 1000” from Dassault PR review. However performance was deemed similar by this Thales project manager. I don’t find that absurd, even on this forum/thread many are trying to compare radar performances without knowing each system intimately. If you are actualy working on such project, I bet you know where does the current technology stands and where do you stand compared to your competitors with a reasonnable margin of error. Rafale M often encountered SH with APG-79 after all…

Can you post these reports? Iam interested

These are two instances available/translated on the net, but you have many more exemples in the specialized press like Air & Cosmos, Air fan, Raid aviation etc…

ATLC in DSI:

The Rafale makes the buzz.

Concurrently, the Rafale shown one’s claws. At the end of the last autumn was held on the Al-Dhafra air base, the annual edition of ATLC (Advanced Tactical Leadership Course). Organized since 2000 by the UAE Air Warfare Center, ATLC aims to help air forces pilots of the Arabian Peninsula to improve their tactics and techniques by confronting them to the pilots of major Western air forces. For this particular case, the Rafale from the Air Force take the opportunity to confront their main competitors on the international scene. Especially since , in parallel , stood the Dubai airshow, which could be used as a sounding board for results obtained during the exercise.
The AdA has shipped on site for five weeks, from November 8 year December 12, not less than 6 Rafale and 3 Mirage 2000-5E. A detachment served by only 125 people and which required only 60 tons of material. The availability rate of the Rafale, which have accumulated 220 flight-hours in 148 missions, while shotting down – virtually meant – not less than 61 hostile fighters, was 97% for the entire period. And no missions has been canceled . According to Lt. Colonel Fabrice Grandclaudon, squadron leader of the EC 1/7 in Saint-Dizier and commander of the detachment,” the weapon system Rafale, taking its place in COMAO (raids) of thirty different combat aircrafts, made at the ATLC the demonstration of his extraordinary flexibility. And to cite the case of this mission on November 29 during which a Rafale pilot, has launched, in barely 66 seconds, 3 Mica on 3 enemy planes (two virtually destroyed) and six AASM bombs on as many targets, some 48 km far . All destroyed!

Versatility is not an empty word.

Better yet, december 7, a pair of Rafale which protected a SAR combat device shot down 10 incoming hostile fighters while dropping six AASM on 6 different land targets forty km far , everything without leaving their CAP racetrack.In addition, the Rafale OSF allowed the positive identification of hostile fighters forty kilometers far. And, December 6, a MICA has been assigned its target – indeed virtually destroyed – only with the SPECTRA system. SPECTRA which was also capable, twice, to detect and classify – and to propose flight path changes to the pilot to avoid detection-specific envelope – some air defense systems (SA-6) that even the American F-16 CJ specialized in the SEAD mission (suppression of air defense opponents), yet also in flight, were not able to collect.. Certainly, the F-16 CJ in question had not been equipped during the flights with their common SEAD equipment, namely the HTS pod (HARM Targeting System), while their threats library had not been refreshed to integrate some of the air defense radars in the area. SEAD was not their daily mission. But it was not either the case for the Rafale. And yet, the Spectra, with no other equipment than those onboard daily, has done better than the F-16 CJ which, however, are specialized in the SEAD mission. That’s the difference between multirole who need to return to land on its base to switch from one type to another mission and versatility that allows flight operations at the same time in different roles. It also demonstrates, incidentally, the ability of the AdA to quickly take advantage of “hostile” ground-radar records tunes operated the day before and to integrate them into the rafale SPECTRA library. This allowed the Rafale to classify them without any difficulty. In short, the performance was moderately appreciated by our American allies! Especially since the six F-22 Raptor deployed there by the 27th FW Langley FS/1st proved incapable of giving the beating promised to the Rafale. Of the six dofights – gun limited – which pitted the two types of aircraft in the Emirians skies in late 2009, only two saw the virtual destruction of a Rafale. Other meetings were concluded without a winner. A “performance” for the Rafale against the most modern [and most expensive] fighter in the world, presented as particularly agile thanks to its steering nozzles and moreover stealthy. Because the Rafale was, according to the lieutenant-colonel Grandclaudon, “a serious challenger in matter of maneuverability ” And the french pilot to regret that his USAF colleagues had not allowed the simulated employment of MICA missiles during these confrontations.

The Typhoon were inferiors.

Concurrently, November 16, the Rafale gave, according to the french pilot, a memorable beating to the RAF Typhoon – the most recent version – which were also deployed in the UAE for the ATLC. To put it bluntly, Lieutenant-Colonel Grandclaudon said the two air battles – battles with IR-guided missile and cannon – which opposed Rafale and Typhoon gave a score of 7 wins for the first and 0 for the second, the only Rafale considered as having been destroyed flew below the allowed flight floor ! Obviously this statement has immediately raised an outcry among British pilots, relayed by the media and the Anglo-Saxon specialized blogosphere, including claims that the Typhoon did not fly as such during the fighting, but simulated “red” attackers, MiG-29 and Su-27 in that case. So, the 1/7 Provence squadron leader made a point to recall that 2 of his Rafale were also”red chest” (MiG-29 index “Charlie”) when they shot down 4 “blue” Typhoon – flying as Typhoon – while being reduced to use virtual russians AA-10C missiles to be guided by the Rafale until the impact on their target, which forbade to shoot multiple targets at once . For Fabrice Grandclaudon, the limitations of the “red” plastron role don’t prevent a weapons system to show its real capabilities, because the pilots are taking advantage of the real human-machine interfaces and sensors on board, one of the Rafale has benefited from a refresh of its tactical situation by his teammate via Link-16. In other words, even if some of them simluated Su-27, the British pilots virtually shoot down were using the sensors and the avionics of their Typhoon and not those of a Su-27! And the french pilot to recognize, with great sportsmanship, that the Typhoon pilots who had been opposed to the Rafale the week preceding the ATLC were young and relatively inexperienced, as the French already benefits from lessons learned from 3 operational detachments in Afghanistan (one year of presence in all) and 4 of its pilots had participated in Red Flag 2008.

Some advantages that make the difference.

However, he heavily emphasized the performance of the french system in the field of arms data fusion, from his point of view the main reason of the superiority obtained. Instead of each sensor to display its studs (aircraft detected) on a specific screen, forcing the Typhoon pilot to operate an intellectual gymnastics , annoying in combat stress, to check if the plot of its corresponding screen of electronic warfare was or was not the one visible on the radar screen or IRST, the Rafale’s systems present to the pilot a single plot on a screen, the system automatically compares the plots provided by the various sensors on board and decides if it is or not the same plane. The french pilots have also appreciated the agility of the antenna of the electronic RBE2 radar – The Typhoon has for now only a mechanical antenna – allowing to refresh the situation in the whole volume monitored. But they insist, for close combat, on the perfect controllability of their Rafale, thanks to the excellence of FBW, to the extreme limits of the flight envelope.. To point the nose toward the target and to design it to the weapons system in the absence of a viewfinder-HMD while operating at very low speed. What are not necessarily capable of the main opponents of the Rafale …
Well obviously, one should not rejoice in excess. The extremely positive results of these meetings have been obtained in special circumstances. The pilots had been set specific roles by the commander of the COMAO device and were therefore not free to exploit in depth all the potentials of their weapons system. The results have been different perhaps in other circumstances (nevertheless, some time ago, another meeting between Typhoon and Rafale, in Corsica, was also turned into “massacre” at the expense of the first 8 losses to 0 ). But, simply put, the EC 1 / 7 pilots are particularly satisfied with their stay in UAE. Their demonstration has , aptly, made a strong buzz [noise] among the aviators of the region and troubled the Anglo-Saxons until now convinced of the utter superiority of their planes. A disturbance also compounded by the loss – virtual of course – of an F-22 gun shot by an UAE Mirage 2000-9 flown, this time, by a French experimented pilot. Really, when everything goes wrong … P

another one from captain Romain who wrote a book on rafale in Afganistan:

Cne Romain:

One must first know that France has a very high credibility worldwide in terms of jamming. So one should be particularly ill informed to think there could be a beginning of a gap in Spectra.
Spectra is a accomplished self-protection system that we are developping every day with programming, testing and with software and hardware updates: month after month ,Spectra is evolving.
In my opinion, i think we are currently using only 2/3 of Spectra capacities: We still have much work to do to optimize our jamming libraries and methods of use.
Finally, just to give you an idea of what stealth is or isn’t : to be 100% stealth, one should neither be seen nor to let others know they are seen … For example, a stealth aircraft that would use its radar to fire a missile, would be suddenly no longer stealth
One of the great strength of the Rafale is here: we do not need to activate our radar to fire our missiles far beyond visual range ..

Corentin

Hello Captain,
Thank you for these clarifications! I am perhaps too curious but can you explain how the Rafale is capable of firing beyond visual range “passively”, and how far?
Do other airplanes of the same generation (EF, Gripen, F-18) use, to your knowledge, equivalent techniques ?

Cne Romain:

The Rafale merges the informations coming from its sensors to give a very reliable and clear picture to the pilot. It’s already a considerable advantage over previous-generation aircraft, including EF and Gripen. When the pilot decides to fire a air to air missile, the missile leaves the aircraft taking automatically into account all available informations.
When the radar is not used, the missile can use the OSF (a TV camera coupled with a laser rangefinder), the informations provided by another aircraft via the MIDS, a heat source detected by the OSF or a MICA IR, or finally a localization by SPECTRA. Faced with these sensors, stealth is useless and we know, thanks to our tests ,that our missiles are very effective in such context.

Still generic statement versus actual photos. Point is, if the number of T/R modules is not classified and they can publish how many T/R modules the radar has, then there is no point for them to go out of their way to make all mock up with the same 838 modules while still fit Rafale nose. By contrast, if they intended to hide the real number of T/R modules then the number on the mock up still more likely to be real than the one they claimed, since it is it more likely they did not expect people to actually count it. Furthermore, Rafale nose is pretty small and the radar is vertical, it is quite unreasonable to assume RBE2 has the same aperture area as APG-79 as superbug nose is bigger and its radar is canted.

Dassault official statement did not say “close to 1000 modules” or “around 1000 modules” but “more than 1000 modules”. Proving your point with a mock up is a dead end, and of course their is a point in hiding the exact number of modules. I don’t think you would find the exact/precise number for any manufacturer. SH radar is not that big, you have to fit the gun in SH nose. I was just referring to an interview in the weekly A&C where a Thales project manager told current RBE2 AESA was similar in performance to the APG-79.

In modern battlefield, data share is a given, a squadron of 20-25 aircraft may have 1-2 transmitting while the rest can remain silent and get information through data link, and geolocate by radar still much faster and more accurate, so RWR alone can’t cut it.

That’s true for NATO forces, less sure for the rest. Anyway, you would have AWACS support in your scenario so what the point. You would get the global picture from a third party.

It was something like 7.8 nm against a Mirage if i recall correctly.

That was a shot in rafale six, but in the frontal emisphere, range is much more important. It is routinely used in exercises with confirmed kills and first report dates from ATLC 2009 in the UAE. From a personnal discussion with a rafale pilot during at a Paris air show, this tactic is usually used for defense but even if the Pk is lower it forces your oponent to break engagement. With the newer version of SPECTRA coming this year, it will be even more accurate and deadly.

From AFM :

The current Thales RBE2 AESA radar
will be further improved. It will benefit
from the introduction of two new air-tosurface
modes: a ground moving target
indicator (GMTI), to detect and track moving
targets over land, and a UHR (ultra high
resolution) mode, to replace the current
HR functionality for synthetic aperture
radar (SAR) imagery, offering superior radar
image quality at very long distances. The
ability to interleave radar modes will be
enhanced, thus helping provide aircrews
with even better situational awareness.
The Spectra electronic warfare/selfprotection
suite produced by Thales and
MBDA is fully integrated. It is composed
of a wide range of systems: a Détecteur
d’Alerte Radar (DAR, or radar warning
receiver), a Détecteur d’Alerte Laser (DAL,
or laser warner), a Détecteur de Départ
Missile (DDM or DDM NG, or missile
launch detector), a high-power radar
jammer, and decoy dispensers that can
launch a range of flares and chaff.
Over the coming months, Spectra will
be improved, with bandwidth extensions
for the detectors and jammers to cover
lower and higher frequency bands, thus
providing an instantaneous reaction
against any type of pop-up threat.
“Our objective here is to obtain extremely
accurate RF emitter geolocation and 3D
tracking, including of airborne radars,” said
the programme director. “The capabilities
of a single Rafale to locate and track a threat
without resorting to traditional, but timeconsuming,
methods of triangulation or of
bearing measurements along the aircraft’s
flight path will be significantly improved. It
is a very important step forward, and the
recent progresses made by Spectra will boost
the capabilities of the Rafale in that field.”

Also GaN technology and additional emitting panels should sound appealing, not to mention integrated offensive jamming in the radar & emitting panels :

GaN technology
Thales and the DGA are actively preparing
the future radar developments that will be
introduced on Standard F4.2, incorporating
cutting-edge Gallium Nitride (GaN) technology
for the radar and jammer antennas. Thanks
to additional radar apertures, detection
capabilities will be unmatched and electronic
attack capabilities will become a reality.
The programme director explained: “Even though
we are entirely satisfied
with the current RBE2 AESA
radar, we are already working
on the next generation scheduled
to appear on new-build aircraft in 2025.
“For the same volume, GaN technology
will offer an expanded bandwidth, more
radiated power and an even easier ability
to switch from one mode to another, or
from one functionality to another. With
the same antenna, we will be capable of
generating combined, interleaved radar,
jamming and electronic warfare modes
as part of an electronic attack mission.
“GaN emitters will not be restricted to the
radar and they will also equip the Spectra
suite. For example, for the antennas in
the wing apexes, ahead of the canard
foreplanes, we could obtain a very quick
emission/reception cycle, either saving some
volume or augmenting radiated power.
On Tranche 5 Rafales, we will have at our
disposal twice the amount of transmitted
power for the radar and jamming antennas.
Thales has already produced and tested
in laboratories a series of GaN module
prototypes for the new radar and initial
testing results look extremely promising.
“Following the entry into service of the
AESA in 2013, the deliveries of the Meteor
in 2018 will push the Rafale into a class of
its own – we will be the only ones in the
world operating a fighter equipped with
an AESA and a ramjet-propelled missile –
but we have to keep investing to maintain
our leadership. This is the reason why this
GaN technological path is so important,
especially for the development of additional
emitting panels and apertures that will
offer extended radar angular coverage.
“It is not just an improvement; it is a
real technological breakthrough in the
field of detection. Jamming modes will
not be left untouched and will push the
Rafale’s electronic warfare capabilities
to unprecedented levels thanks to the
introduction of what we call ‘smart jamming’,
with a wider band coverage and GaN
emitters from 2025. These capabilities
will be further expanded thanks to the
adoption of MFAs [Multi-Function Arrays].”
The Rafale’s Front Sector Optronics (FSO)
will be fitted with a new-generation infrared
search and track (IRST) sensor optimised
for the tracking of air targets, either alone,
or in conjunction with the RBE2 radar.

So where does the official diameter figure comes from ? Dassault ? Thales ? AdA ?

There is no official data regarding RBE2 exacts diameter. The only official statement from industry (in fox three magazine from Dassault) is that there are more than 1000 AESA modules. In a former interview with a Thales employee in the weekly Air & Cosmos, current RBE2 AESA radar was described as similar in performance as the APG-79. You won’t find many more official info from the industry or French military. Pictures released are Photoshoped.

RBE2 AESA NG is coming and is due to be ready in the 2020’s.

The DGA oversees a number of research programmes aimed at promoting advanced technologies for the Rafale in the field of sensors, especially for the RBE2 radar, as the Rafale Programme Director explained.“We will soon launch the AESA NG programme, which will supplement the MFA [Multi-Function Array], CARAA [Capacités Accrues pour le Radar RBE2 à Antenne Active,enhanced capabilities for the active RBE2 radar] and MELBAA [Modes et Exploitation Large Bande pour l’Antenne Active, wide-band operating modes for the active array] projects in order to help mature technologies to be produced from 2025 for Standard F4.2. “The CARAA demonstrator first flew in late 2015. It is composed of numerous receptors, enabling the creation of radar lobes optimised by advanced calculation techniques to cancel jamming in many directions simultaneously. “The first flight of the MELBAA demonstrator is expected in late 2017. The trials will focus on dedicated types of targets: slowmovers, helicopters, fighters hiding in the Doppler beam, stealth targets etc. Further developments will include interleaved modes that will be further refined thanks to the appearance of a new generation of calculators powerful enough to provide the processing power required to exploit these modes fully.”

[ATTACH=CONFIG]258716[/ATTACH]

It was at the time of rafale A although the possibility exists today but has not been cleared.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]258717[/ATTACH]