Political it is. Rafale is seen as too “francophone” by the Flemish side who feel culturally closer to the Netherlands and by extension the F35 while Wallonie is more open/favorable to the rafale & European solution. This fighter jet competition is another field of political rambling between the Flemish and the Waloons. I am Excepting this process to get very passionate/non rational knowing how both side hate each other.
Yes, smart jamming generally use less energy, but since J/S factor is always there, a stealth aircraft will always needs much lower power for jamming.
That’s not automatically an issue if your EW have sufficient output compared to the RCS of the aircraft. I don’t think there is an issue of power generation/cooling regarding Spectra for the rafale. Of course F35 lower RCS helps to be more efficient for EW but power generation/cooling doens’t seem to be a bottleneck on 4th gen jets as regards their own EW suite.
Altering an returning echo doesn’t require a lot of energy but a lot of precision > butterfly effect.
Rafale F4 in 2025 and possible super Typhoon for Germany in the mid 2020’s means that there will be some overlap. New airframes will be built in the mid/late 20’s, at least for the rafale.
The positive thing is that by then there will be a good feedback from exercises with so called 5 gen fighters to develop this new aircraft. It sometimes more confortable/less expensive/more efficient to come a bit later having seen errors from others. certainly F35 will be a benchmark to beat.
Germany has the lead for the future MBT.
Serge Dassault is dead at the age of 93 at his office in Paris.
https://www.ft.com/content/8beeca0c-6294-11e8-90c2-9563a0613e56
Amazing that a company like Dassault is still mostly a familly run business, good old fashioned business model. What a contrast with other manufacturer.
Serge Dassault, the billionaire French defence industrialist and politician, has died at his office in Paris aged 93.
Mr Dassault — who had headed a sprawling business empire that included a controlling stake in Dassault Aviation, maker of the Rafale fighter jet — suffered a heart attack at the group’s Paris headquarters on Monday.
“The Dassault family is saddened to announce the death of Mr Serge Dassault, today, May 28, 2018, in the afternoon, at his office at the Champs-Élysées Roundabout Marcel-Dassault, following a heart attack at the age of 93,” said his family in a statement published on the website of French conservative newspaper Le Figaro, which is owned by the group.
French president Emmanuel Macron said after the news: “In Serge Dassault, France lost a man who devoted his life to developing a flagship of French industry.”
Mr Dassault was a conservative politician, former French senator and head of one of France’s great industrial families.
He was chief executive of the family holding company Groupe Industriel Marcel Dassault, which has a 62 per cent stake in Dassault Aviation and through that a 25 per cent stake in French defence electronics group Thales. The company also owns a winery, Château Dassault, and Artcurial, the auction house.
According to Le Figaro, leading up to his death “Serge Dassault had never thought of retiring and came to the office every day. In recent months, he had — a little — lightened his schedule.”
Nicolas Sarkozy, the former French president, said: “With the disappearance of Serge Dassault, France loses a great industrialist, the world of aviation a pioneer, public opinion a great boss of the press, and I, more simply, a friend.”
Although undeniably successful in his own right, Mr Dassault was often compared to his powerful father, with whom he had a difficult relationship.
He was the son of the industrialist Marcel Bloch, who survived the Nazi concentration camps and changed his name to Dassault after the war. His father founded the aircraft company Dassault and helped it flourish thanks to his connections with the French state.
Dassault was the alias of Marcel’s brother when he was part of the French resistance.
Serge Dassault, as group patriarch, had courted controversy even as his expansion of his family’s business empire since taking the helm gave him influence in politics and the defence sector.
Last year, Mr Dassault was found guilty of fraud by a Paris court after failing to fully disclose his wealth to the tax authorities. He was fined €2m and handed a five-year ban from public office. He had been appealing against the decision.
He had previously been stripped of the mayorship of Corbeil-Essonne in 2009 after France’s highest administrative court found he had provided gifts to voters that could have affected the outcome of his election.
Mr Dassault had admitted using his immense fortune — he was the fifth richest man in France with a fortune of more than €20bn according to Challenges magazine — to help people and organisations in Corbeil-Essonne. However, he always denied that any of that help was given in return for electoral support.
Dassault & Airbus sign agreement to develop next gen fighter jet
Entry in service 2035-2040.
do not think the pilot who is telling the rear sitting journo’s we’re at Mach 1.7 atm really cares aout your doubts. MAch 1.8 is a top operational speed, true. But why?
Never forget that the RAFALE A demonstrator has reached Mach 2 very early in its flight tests. Current rafales are limited to mach 1,8 due to the air intake design (S -duct) to incorporate RCS reduction.
Probably for the rafale thread but the rafale will probably be the first fighter aircraft to rely on AI :
Minister Florence Parly has launched a vast program to develop artificial intelligence in combat aviation by 2021
Artificial intelligence, integrated on board Rafale-type aircraft, or drones, must allow to restore a long lasting superiority to the French combat aircraft, against the United States, China and Russia.
The Rafale will soon be equipped with artificial intelligence, a necessity for French combat aircraft to remain competitive
“I tell you today, artificial intelligence will soon be in all barracks, on all ships and in all aircraft. Florence Parly, Minister of Armies, set an ambitious course at the Directorate General of Armaments (DGA), Friday, March 16, reports Challenges. “Autonomous navigation, collaborative combat, predictive simulation and maintenance will be the daily routine of our soldiers, sailors and airmen,” she continued.
Development of new intelligent sensors, autonomous flight capabilities in complex environments, but also automatic radar identification or weapon identification technologies: the specifications are dense.
The announced means are substantial: an annual investment of 100 million euros and the recruitment of 50 experts in AI by 2022. A demonstrator of secure platform of IA for the specific needs of armies, called Artemis, will enter into service in 2019, a defense innovation agency will be created to promote the opening of defense innovation to civil society.
If it wants to remain competitive, the French combat aircraft has no choice but to invest heavily in AI. Global air defense systems are continually being improved, such as the Russian S-300 and S-400. The development of artificial intelligence will also make more accessible targets more and more isolated. With this in mind, the IA will facilitate collaboration between Rafale-type combat aircraft and combat drones, which could be derived from the Dassault Neuron demonstrator.
Probably for the rafale thread but the rafale will probably be the first fighter aircraft to rely on AI :
Minister Florence Parly has launched a vast program to develop artificial intelligence in combat aviation by 2021
Artificial intelligence, integrated on board Rafale-type aircraft, or drones, must allow to restore a long lasting superiority to the French combat aircraft, against the United States, China and Russia.
The Rafale will soon be equipped with artificial intelligence, a necessity for French combat aircraft to remain competitive
“I tell you today, artificial intelligence will soon be in all barracks, on all ships and in all aircraft. Florence Parly, Minister of Armies, set an ambitious course at the Directorate General of Armaments (DGA), Friday, March 16, reports Challenges. “Autonomous navigation, collaborative combat, predictive simulation and maintenance will be the daily routine of our soldiers, sailors and airmen,” she continued.
Development of new intelligent sensors, autonomous flight capabilities in complex environments, but also automatic radar identification or weapon identification technologies: the specifications are dense.
The announced means are substantial: an annual investment of 100 million euros and the recruitment of 50 experts in AI by 2022. A demonstrator of secure platform of IA for the specific needs of armies, called Artemis, will enter into service in 2019, a defense innovation agency will be created to promote the opening of defense innovation to civil society.
If it wants to remain competitive, the French combat aircraft has no choice but to invest heavily in AI. Global air defense systems are continually being improved, such as the Russian S-300 and S-400. The development of artificial intelligence will also make more accessible targets more and more isolated. With this in mind, the IA will facilitate collaboration between Rafale-type combat aircraft and combat drones, which could be derived from the Dassault Neuron demonstrator.
fair enough, Quatar bought their option for 12 rafales for 1.1 billion euros.
Tout d’abord, le pays achète 12 Rafale (1,1 milliard d’euros) et a posé une option sur 36 autres
http://bfmbusiness.bfmtv.com/entreprise/le-qatar-achete-12-rafale-1321554.html
Around 92M€ is indeed a realistic price.
You didn’t read GoI letter regarding the Rafale contract then. It is 103 million USD (2016) per aircraft without any India specific modification. Those mods add 1.7 billion euro. Here is the breakdown:
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018…sets-plan.htmlAnd no, an F4 will not cost the same. Some of the development cost will be passed to future export customers, like the Swiss. If an F3 without the Indian mods is roughly 103 million, and Qatar’s 12 are similarly priced, you can fully expect on per airframe basis Swiss Rafale F4 standard will be north of that.
How can you assert that development costs will be passed to export custormer ? It has never been the case (letting aside specific customer requirements). 103 million per aircraft is fine although we don’t know what it encompasses : engine spares, supports, training and the like…It is probably not “strictly” a fly away price. The rest is specific so nothing to say about it. My point is to say SH, rafales, Typhoon and F35 are roughly in the same price range, so that might not be the biggest differentiator in a competition.
As for rafale F4 fly away price it might be slightly higher than current standard but on the other hand you are getting 2020’s technology. SH will have a 20 year old radar design compared to the rafale F4 with its new GaN aesa radar and its conformal GaN antennas, Spectra with GaN, datalink, new generation IRST etc. In MMRCA rafale with GaS AESA radar was already downselected and not the SH, I let you imagine the differential with the F4 standard.
Not entirely true, what we have seen in recent export deals on the Rafale is that a portion of the development costs are baked into the contract on a per unit basis. Each Rafale is costing India roughly 103 million USD (Rs 670 crore in 2016 value) without equipment, weapons, or India specific mods (like HMS). Comparing that to the 2014 Senat cost for the Rafale at 68-74 € (76-83 million USD 2014). India is paying roughly 20 million USD in dev costs per aircraft.
It’s doubtful that Dassault can offer a contract to the Swiss below what France actually pays to develop and build a Rafale F4. The French taxpayers and government wouldn’t look to kindly to taking one in the neck for Dassault to score the export order.
I don’t get you point, India is asking for specific developments, like the UAE did for their F16 block60, SA for their new F15 etc etc…But that doesn’t mean the swiss will ask the same thing. Sometimes an AF is happy with the “normal” standard like Egypt and the rafale or even Quatar (bare the HMS for the latter).
And as far as the F4 standard development is concerned, it is paid by the French tax payer, development costs are not going to be billed to the Swiss.
Eagle1:
Boeing was awarded a contract worth up to $1.17 billion to produce and deliver 22 F/A-18E and 6 F/A-18F Super Hornets for the government of Kuwait by 2022,
On cost, delay and capabilities, this would remain something hard to beat for Dassault.You can read an analysis of old the competition here (in Fr.) where we learn that Dassault made a last attempt to break the deal by cutting nearly in half its last offer.
Not that hard a challenge, look at how quickly Egyptian rafales have been delivered (diverted from French delivery, exports have the priority), look at the price paid by Quatar for the last deal, and as far as respective capabilities are concerned look at Indian evaluation and who made the cut. However, I doubt they actually get SH for around 20M.
ow much Rafale F4 will be produced. At what rate… Given the extra cost to bring the 36 Indian F3 Mark S (for Something) to their advanced standard, it will be hard to believe that 40 F4 would cost much less thatn what we have guessed for the total per airframe (doing so by discarding some generous share on unknown technology transfert).
Let’s be realistic one minute at least:
– Hundred++ of Hornet III
– Hundred of Typhoon AESA + ground
– Thousands of F-35A
– Hundreds of F-35BYou don’t have to kill the economist in you to pick the right assumption
Rafale F4 is entirely paid by France and is already the basis for future export prospects. The Swiss wont have to pay for F4 development. As far as productions rates are concerned, apart for the F35 it will be rather low not only for rafale but for Gripen E, Typhoon, SH by 2025. I don’t see any significant gap especially when you consider that the rafale is already quite price competitive vs Typhoon and SH (cheaper or similar costs) with already a lower production output. The reason is a bit less simplistic than your initial reasoning : costs structures are totally different. Typhoon industrial setup is a nonsense and was mostly driven by political consideration. Dassault is a family SME compared to other aerospace heavyweights which is more agile and efficient than its competitors with workers shifting from Falcon business jet to manufaturing the rafale depending of the workload (for instance). So fixed costs are absorbed not only by rafale volume but falcon business jets production as well, synergies are stronger.
There is a totaly different management mindset. Rafale price compared to Typhoon, SH, or F35 is not an handicap, it is consistent for its class of medium weight western jet fighters. It is also a simple, rugged design with less moving parts & hydrolics than its competitors in line with Dassault’s philosophy.
Not sure why Rafale main issue is high cost ? Compared to Gripen yes, but not compared to the rest of the competition. Its price is appropriate for a medium weight western fighter. Similar to SH actualy. However the latter might struggle in some AtA scenario as the baseline is the regular hornet which has better acceleration than SH.
Like you I don’t see the Swiss going for the F35 despite its merits > no need to penetrate sophisticated AD on day one and some emphasis on sky policing.
For me it is Rafale vs Gripen E most probably with the Typhoon as an outsider.
Gripen E will always have the advantage on costs, but as the Swiss are looking to replace F18 and not only F5, and given the “weight” of the competition that will be going throug technical evaluations, it might look as if it lacks a little bit of punch.
It will be interesting to see which standard of each aircraft is going to be evaluated. Talking of what I know, mid-2020 coincides with the entry of service of the rafale F4 standard with full GaN radar (with conformal antennas), GaN EW, new datalink, new irst, HMS, etc which would makes it a serious contender. Timing is important beacuse you have to get the right balance between “mature” and “new”.