They seem pretty confident to clinch new deals with the rafale apparently…

Possible new rafale order from India in 2018 according to Dassault CEO (currently under negotiation).

http://www.ouest-france.fr/monde/inde/rafale-le-pdg-de-dassault-evoque-un-nouveau-contrat-en-inde-4991110

I would be cautious with that news, it seems that French spokesman is not “sure” when he says “I believe”. That would be quite a professional mistake if this information is denied.

I am sure the F-35 will revolutionise the way combat pilots experience mission flying and how they interact with sensors. I believe the problem with the F-35 is that there was a considerable improvement in flying characteristics between every generation of planes on all sides.

latest MiG’s > Previous MiGs
Lastest Su’s > Previous Su’s
Latest F-XX > previous F-XX
Rafale > Mirage
Ef2000 > Tornado (although not applicable here but what the hell)

But the F-35 doesn’t seem to be flying better than previous generations of fighters on any side. I believe the plane must maintain some flight characteristics that make it competitive throughout its envelope, but it definitely seems to not take its lineage a step further as much as its predecessors did.

I couldn’t agree more ! Exellent post.

F35 revolution is about stealth & sensor & communication being widespread to your basic frontline jetfighter…In great numbers. An F35 might not be very maneuvrable and somewhat unimpressive against former gen aircrafts, but clearly that will not count very much. I think SU35, T50s, J20s etc don’t stand an chance against an integrated allied NATO fleet of F35. It will not be a one vs one dogfight in real life.

When the F35 will come in numbers, all the “wow” maneuvring & powerfull stuff of the Sukhoi for instance will be completely irrelevant. It will be a new paradigm.

I am pretty confident time will prove the F35 fanboys wrong on maneuvrability. After more than a decade you cannot even find an F35 doing a proper vertical loop or proper fast barel rolls (without sinking). Current demos are far behind other 4th gen fighters in every regards. When you have such a fat fuselage with short wings, you don’t need to spend much time on PR reports that try to revigor F35 reputation in public opinion…Of course don’t expect anything very negative in these reports/charts. They obviously have an agenda and are certainly not neutral. I know that everyone does the same but here the distortion with reality is so important that it is not credible. Only diehards F35 fanboys would take them for granted. If this was supported by proper “first class” demonstration it would gain a bit of credibility but we are far from that.

what make you think it cant do those maneuver ?

isn’t great compared to what ? , if you are talking about the video, we dont see video of Rafale or Gripen with better average turn rate either.

I meant compared to an F16, F18, gripen, rafale, typhoon, mig 29 etc…The F35 with its high wing loading due to internal bays and high fuel fraction cannot compete against 4th gen jets as far as maneuvrability is concerned. You can’t have it all. there is always a compromise. That being said F35 strenght is not in maneuvrability but in stealth and sensors which is relevant in the new paradigm of AtA warfare.

But if you are talking about video/demo, it is far to equal the high pace maneuvre of the hereabove jets. The F35 is flying for more than a decade and it has never done a demo than can rival 4th jets fighters. In comparison, EAP or rafale A only a few months after their first flights were showing first class high pace demos.

Yes I don’t believe the F35 can perform “effectively” a vertical loop (I meant in a reduce vertical volume like for a demonstration). I don’t beleive it can perform “clean” (on axis without sinking) fast successive barel rolls.
If the F35 was at ease it would have been demonstrated in flight.

As far as average turn is concerned its ok for one turn (I wouldn’t say it equals 4th gen jets from the video) but it will bleed its energy much faster than 4th gen jet who will always be much more performant in the vertical, hence being able to get an easy lock in a traditional dogfight (which is of course irrelevant nowadays).

between 2:44-2:51, F-35 complete a 180 degrees loop, that equal to average turn rate of 25.7 dps

Thanks but I was looking for a loop in the vertical or a complete fast roll. I have little doubt it can turn in the horizontal but I have more questions in the vertical.

I have yet to see a demo like a F16,18, gripen, rafale, typhoon.

One forget the cost of customization and offsets. Each deal covers a specific scope and are well beyhond the price of the aircraft.