so the F-35 ( rcs = 0.0001 m2 )

a big LOL for the figures. :highly_amused::highly_amused:

Now back to reality :

According to a calculation by a senior EADS radar expert, the Captor-E, which will use 1,426 T/R modules and is scheduled to be integrated onto the Eurofighter Typhoon in 2015, is capable of recognizing the F-35 at around 59 kilometers away.

He acknowledged that the chance is high for the F-35 to detect and fire missiles first against fourth-generation jets, such as the Eurofighter or Boeing’s F-15, but claimed that the latter are capable of dodging missiles and successfully counterattacking at such a long range.

His calculation shows that the F-35’s APG-81, which allegedly has 1,400 T/R modules, will be able to recognize the Eurofighter or semi-stealth fighter at 120 kilometers or farther based on the assumption both radars have the same capability.

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2011/10/205_97236.html

By contrast modern ground based radar will be able to pick up FR35 or F22 HUNDREDS of kilometers away. Not to mention other counter stealth techniques already in service based on UHF.

That’s why the idea of flying at medium or high altitudes is equal to death even for LO aircrafts. Only UCAV “could” claim to be survivable enough and this remain to be seen.

Flying low remain a perfectly valid tactic. Risky but at least you have a chance of success unlike the F35 flying at medium or high altitudes.

Direct quote about “magic” spectra :

The upgrade will also see a series of improvements to Spectra. Developed by Thales and MBDA, Spectra is a fully automated system that provides electromagnetic detection, laser and missile warning, jamming and four chaff/flare dispensers.

French industry sources say that during operations over Libya in 2011, Rafale literally disappeared from the radar screens of the Libyan air force, performing “soft kills” on enemy radar systems [already related in one of the lastest issue of FOX3].

Bruno Carrara, director of the Rafale program at Thales, says the F3-R upgrade will involve a more advanced electromagnetic detection capability based on new digital wide-band-receiver technologies, improving the suite’s spectrum analysis as well as its instantaneous interception capability.

Thales will also update Spectra’s solid-state jamming subsystem, which was one of the first to use electronically steered phased-array antennas. Carrara says for F3R, Spectra will include more powerful antennas, while further increasing the power supply so that more threats can be jammed simultaneously. Like Saab, Thales will use GaN technology because of its power and efficiency.

Since the late 1990s, Spectra’s designers have dropped hints that the system can perform “active cancellation”—receiving a radar signal and mimicking the aircraft’s echo exactly one-half wavelength out of phase so the radar sees nothing.

Carrara again implies that such a capability is in use: “There are other strategies, such as generating signals that will encompass or be higher than the echo from the aircraft, so that the radar threat will receive a signal that will mask the echo from the aircraft,” Carrara says.

“Instead of creating a false echo and drawing the radar to the wrong place, the idea is to produce a signal that will mask the echo of the aircraft, so the radar will be unable to detect the aircraft Spectra is protecting.”[…]

http://aviationweek.com/defense/new-avionics-gripen-typhoon-and-rafale

How many Captor-E have been ordered so far ? I believe the UK and SA are the most keen to go ahead but I am not sure on how many radars they have respectively ordered.

The Rafale topped several technical evaluations and was chosen by India which is facing China. This is a clear indication of rafale’s performance. Clearly ahead of the competition.

Wonder why the IAF was so keen to purchase the Rafale ? Wonder why Indian gov still opted for the Rafale when it could have cancelled everything and go for additional Su30… Because they know it’s the superior bird and fully relevant against China’s new threats.

Swiss Air Force had it right : it is superior in every area it was tested. And the gap has increased since tested.

New rafale exports coming !!! 😎

Rafale : Fabius confiant sur d’autres contrats

Le ministre français des Affaires étrangères, Laurent Fabius, s’est montré très confiant mercredi sur la signature d’autres contrats de vente d’avions de combat Rafale, notamment aux Emirats arabes unis, après trois succès consécutifs depuis le début 2015.

Outre les 84 appareils déjà commandés par l’Egypte, l’Inde et le Qatar, “d’autres seront-ils vendus, aux Emirats par exemple?” lui a-t-on demandé sur la radio Europe 1. “Oui. J’ai dit jamais trois sans quatre”, a répondu le chef de la diplomatie française.

Google translation:

Rafale Fabius confident other contracts

The French Foreign Minister , Laurent Fabius, was very confident on Wednesday the signing of other combat aircraft Rafale sales contracts , including the United Arab Emirates , after three consecutive wins since the start in 2015 .

In addition to the 84 aircraft already ordered by Egypt , India and Qatar, ” other – they will be sold , the Emirates for example ? ” do we have asked on radio Europe 1. ” Yes . I said three never without four ,” replied the head of French diplomacy.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-eco/2015/05/06/97002-20150506FILWWW00104-rafale-fabius-confiant-sur-d-autres-contrats.php

With the recent rafale successes following the positive feedbacks from past technical evaluations, rafale haters like lukos, mig 31 bm and Vnomad felt compelled to perform their usual rafale bashing and jumped in the rafale news thread. There is so much jealousy behind this…Spending so much time to downplay rafale performance really means they feel unease about the rafale and their so called “certitudes”.

They know that their rhetoric does not match reality since many countries ranked the rafale highly in their technical evaluation and now with those exports order it makes them mad. Just like the reports from international exercises. They will use rhetoric, irony and other lame arguments to counter this idea, but this is so evident that it is not even worth answering. Their obsession against the rafale speaks for itself.

I mean supporting an aircraft A or B is one thing, but when you spend so much time and energy to bash the rafale, its certain that the psychological aspect is very important.

But I take it as a testament of rafale achievements. Certainly this is better than being ignored as it cannot be ignored actually.

I am reading this thread with pop corn smiling at the resentment and the jealousy against the rafale knowing this is the clear mark of its success. A great feeling of satisfaction. I wish I could participate more but I currently lack the time to be fully in. Anyway a lot of fun.

Mig 31BM, pay attention to this and the previous report.

Cne Romain:

One must first know that France has a very high credibility worldwide in terms of jamming. So one should be particularly ill informed to think there could be a beginning of a gap in Spectra.
Spectra is a accomplished self-protection system that we are developping every day with programming, testing and with software and hardware updates: month after month ,Spectra is evolving.
In my opinion, i think we are currently using only 2/3 of Spectra capacities: We still have much work to do to optimize our jamming libraries and methods of use.
Finally, just to give you an idea of what stealth is or isn’t : to be 100% stealth, one should neither be seen nor to let others know they are seen … For example, a stealth aircraft that would use its radar to fire a missile, would be suddenly no longer stealth
One of the great strength of the Rafale is here: we do not need to activate our radar to fire our missiles far beyond visual range ..

Corentin

Hello Captain,
Thank you for these clarifications! I am perhaps too curious but can you explain how the Rafale is capable of firing beyond visual range “passively”, and how far?
Do other airplanes of the same generation (EF, Gripen, F-18) use, to your knowledge, equivalent techniques ?

Cne Romain:

The Rafale merges the informations coming from its sensors to give a very reliable and clear picture to the pilot. It’s already a considerable advantage over previous-generation aircraft, including EF and Gripen. When the pilot decides to fire a air to air missile, the missile leaves the aircraft taking automatically into account all available informations.
When the radar is not used, the missile can use the OSF (a TV camera coupled with a laser rangefinder), the informations provided by another aircraft via the MIDS, a heat source detected by the OSF or a MICA IR, or finally a localization by SPECTRA. Faced with these sensors, stealth is useless and we know, thanks to our tests ,that our missiles are very effective in such context.

mig 31 bm,

I don’t understand the need to make a point when you know this is wrong.

The rafale routinely engage targets at long ranges with Spectra only. This has been reported in numerous reports since many years.

Halloweene provided the test flight from the Brazilian test pilot engaging a mirage 2000 in its 6 with spectra only. But you can go with even earlier reports. Here is one of them but you can find many others :

The Rafale makes the buzz.

Concurrently, the Rafale shown one’s claws. At the end of the last autumn was held on the Al-Dhafra air base, the annual edition of ATLC (Advanced Tactical Leadership Course). Organized since 2000 by the UAE Air Warfare Center, ATLC aims to help air forces pilots of the Arabian Peninsula to improve their tactics and techniques by confronting them to the pilots of major Western air forces. For this particular case, the Rafale from the Air Force take the opportunity to confront their main competitors on the international scene. Especially since , in parallel , stood the Dubai airshow, which could be used as a sounding board for results obtained during the exercise.

The Army Air has shipped on site for five weeks, from November 8 year December 12, not less than 6 Rafale and 3 Mirage 2000-5E. A detachment served by only 125 people and which required only 60 tons of material. The availability rate of the Rafale, which have accumulated 220 flight-hours in 148 missions, while shotting down – virtually meant – not less than 61 hostile fighters, was 97% for the entire period. And no missions has been canceled . According to Lt. Colonel Fabrice Grandclaudon, squadron leader of the EC 1/7 in Saint-Dizier and commander of the detachment,” the weapon system Rafale, taking its place in COMAO (raids) of thirty different combat aircrafts, made at the ATLC the demonstration of his extraordinary flexibility. And to cite the case of this mission on November 29 during which a Rafale pilot, has launched, in barely 66 seconds, 3 Mica on 3 enemy planes (two virtually destroyed) and six AASM bombs on as many targets, some 48 km far . All destroyed!

Versatility is not an empty word.

Better yet, december 7, a pair of Rafale which protected a SAR combat device shot down 10 incoming hostile fighters while dropping six AASM on 6 different land targets forty km far , everything without leaving their CAP racetrack.In addition, the Rafale OSF allowed the positive identification of hostile fighters forty kilometers far. And, December 6, a MICA has been assigned its target – indeed virtually destroyed – only with the SPECTRA system. SPECTRA which was also capable, twice, to detect and classify – and to propose flight path changes to the pilot to avoid detection-specific envelope – some air defense systems (SA-6) that even the F-16 CJ American specialized in the SEAD mission (suppression of air defense opponents), yet also in flight, were not able to collect.. Certainly, the F-16 CJ in question had not been equipped during the flights with their common SEAD equipment, namely the HTS pod (HARM Targeting System), while their threats library had not been refreshed to integrate some of the air defense radars in the area. SEAD was not their daily mission. But it was not either the case for the Rafale. And yet, the Spectra, with no other equipment than those onboard daily, has done better than the F-16 CJ which, however, are specialized in the SEAD mission. That’s the difference between multirole who need to return to land on its base to switch from one type to another mission and versatility that allows flight operations at the same time in different roles. It also demonstrates, incidentally, the ability of the AdA to quickly take advantage of “hostile” ground-radar records tunes operated the day before and to integrate them into the rafale SPECTRA library. This allowed the Rafale to classify them without any difficulty. In short, the performance was moderately appreciated by our American allies! Especially since the six F-22 Raptor deployed there by the 27th FW Langley FS/1st proved incapable of giving the beating promised to the Rafale. Of the six dofights – gun limited – which pitted the two types of aircraft in the Emirians skies in late 2009, only two saw the virtual destruction of a Rafale. Other meetings were concluded without a winner. A “performance” for the Rafale against the most modern [and most expensive] fighter in the world, presented as particularly agile thanks to its steering nozzles and moreover stealthy. Because the Rafale was, according to the lieutenant-colonel Grandclaudon, “a serious challenger in matter of maneuverability ” And the french pilot to regret that his USAF colleagues had not allowed the simulated employment of MICA missiles during these confrontations.

The Typhoon were inferiors.

Concurrently, November 16, the Rafale gave, according to the french pilot, a memorable beating to the RAF Typhoon – the most recent version – which were also deployed in the UAE for the ATLC. To put it bluntly, Lieutenant-Colonel Grandclaudon said the two air battles – battles with IR-guided missile and cannon – which opposed Rafale and Typhoon gave a score of 7 wins for the first and 0 for the second, the only Rafale considered as having been destroyed flew below the allowed flight floor ! Obviously this statement has immediately raised an outcry among British pilots, relayed by the media and the Anglo-Saxon specialized blogosphere, including claims that the Typhoon does not fly as such during the fighting, but simulated “red” attackers, MiG-29 and Su-27 in that case. So ,the 1/7 Provence squadron leader made a point to recall that 2 of his Rafale were also”red chest” (MiG-29 index “Charlie”) when they shot down 4 “blue” Typhoon – flying as Typhoon – while being reduced to use virtual russians AA-10C missiles to be guided by the Rafale until the impact on their target, which forbade to shoot multiple targets at once . For Fabrice Grandclaudon, the limitations of the “red” plastron role don’t prevent a weapons system to show its real capabilities, because the pilots are taking advantage of the real human-machine interfaces and sensors on board, one of the Rafale has benefited from a refresh of its tactical situation by his teammate via Link-16. In other words, even if some of them simluated Su-27, the British pilots virtually shoot down were using the sensors and the avionics of their Typhoon and not those of a Su-27! And the french pilot to recognize, with great sportsmanship, that the Typhoon pilots who had been opposed to the Rafale the week preceding the ATLC were young and relatively inexperienced, as the French already benefits from lessons learned from 3 operational detachments in Afghanistan (one year of presence in all) and 4 of its pilots had participated in Red Flag 2008.

Some advantages that make the difference.

However, he heavily emphasized the performance of the french system in the field of arms data fusion, from his point of view, the main reason of the superiority obtained. Instead of each sensor to display its studs (aircraft detected) on a specific screen, forcing the Typhoon pilot to operate an intellectual gymnastics , annoying in combat stress, to check if the plot of its corresponding screen of electronic warfare was or was not the one visible on the radar screen or IRST, the Rafale’s systems present to the pilot a single plot on a screen, the system automatically compared the plots provided by the various sensors on board and decided if it was or not the same plane. The french pilots have also appreciated the agility of the antenna of the electronics RBE2 radar – The Typhoon has for now only a mechanical antenna – allowing to refresh the situation in the whole volume monitored. But they insist, for close combat, on the perfect controllability of their Rafale, thanks to the excellence of FBW, to the extreme limits of the flight envelope.. To point the nose toward the target and to design it to the weapons system in the absence of a viewfinder-HMD while operating at very low speed. What are not necessarily capable of the main opponents of the Rafale …
Well obviously, one should not rejoice in excess. The extremely positive results of these meetings have been obtained in special circumstances. The pilots had been set specific roles by the commander of the COMAO device and were therefore not free to exploit in depth all the potentials of their weapons system. The results have been different perhaps in other circumstances (nevertheless, some time ago, another meeting between Typhoon and Rafale, in Corsica, was also turned into “massacre” at the expense of the first 8 losses to 0 ). But, simply put, the EC 1 / 7 pilots are particularly satisfied with their stay in UAE. Their demonstration has , aptly, made a strong buzz [noise] among the aviators of the region and troubled the Anglo-Saxons until now convinced of the utter superiority of their planes. A disturbance also compounded by the loss – virtual of course – of an F-22 gun shot by an UAE Mirage 2000-9 flown, this time, by a French experimented pilot. Really, when everything goes wrong … P

On a personal note I have talked to rafale pilots during the numerous previous Paris Airshows and this functionnality is totally operational. Reading between lines I understood that you don’t get the same accuracy than a radar but this is way sufficient to allow the missile to come close enough to find the target with its seeker.