1.) Transformation training includes basic combat training as well, including BFM, ACM etc.

I don’t say otherwise but as you said yourself it is “basic” certainly not enough to be deployed in an international exercise against the rafale. That would be foolish, dangerous and a loss of time and money to train rookies. You would hardly mobilize foreign assets like the rafale with the typhoon just to train rookies.

2.) It’s not necessarily the norm, but it happens that pilot in conversion courses are send on a deployment and complete some of their flights there.

a deployement yes (to practise gun firing for instance when you need a firing range), an international exercise clearly no. Especially a dogfight exercise against a high end fighter like the rafale or the typhoon.

3.) Some Typhoon jocks come from Harriers and Jags as well and the Tornado F3 is not exactly known for being a tremendous dogfighter. There are worlds between the Tornado and the Typhoon and the pilots have to adapt their tactics and skills to the performance level and capabilities of their mount.

I don’t say otherwise but I was merely answering bloodshot assertion that the typhoon pilots would be automatically less experienced. Especially when the rafale pilots have to train for a much wider variety of tasks.

Lasy point : RAF and AdA pilots on the photo are clearly in their 30’s and even well in their mid 30’s which indicate that they are not rookies.

Jackoniko : opportunity shots happens but the specificity of the Solenzara exercise is that both aircrafts started with even conditions and the scenario was repeated several times.

I don’t think he has claimed anything as far as pilot experience in Solenzara is concerned apart pilot background…Certainly not that pilots with just a few hours on a rafale or a typhoon just after their Hawk and Alphajet training would be sent in an international exercise.

The instructors of both french and british transformational squadron took care of the dogfights.

If you ask for the full source to back my claims…:cool:

Enemy Brothers

Air&Cosmos – June 2010

Since birth, both were scheduled to compete. The wrestling (commercial) which has now engaged the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Rafale on the international scene has its roots in the early 80s, while Europe is seriously considering a joint development of a new multinational European fighter aircraft. France, United Kingdom and Germany are the main actors in a drama that will last many years. These last two countries, which have already collaborated in the Panavia consortium for the development of the Tornado are looking to replace a portion of their tactical fleet. For its part, France is trying, too, to have a fighter that can replace almost all of its combat aircraft. But from the beginning, the situation appears complex, whereas the English call for an air superiority aircraft class 11-12 tonnes, Paris argues for a device of only 9 tons. Moreover, the problems of industrial shares weigh down the prospects of cooperation including France, whose aeronautical companies ardently defend their plans to support the maintenance of their skills. In 1985, France announced it will develop alone its future combat aircraft. For their part, the United Kingdom, Germany, Italy and Spain will start the Eurofighter program. While France wants to start building a really multirole aircraft, the nations in the Eurofighter consortium finance the development of a superiority aircraft, designed for air to air combat. To date yet, the ‘Typhoon has only very limited air-ground capabilities compared with the Rafale.

More thrust for the Typhoon

On paper, the Typhoon has some undeniable advantages: more powerful than M88, its two reactors give it a better weight/thrust than the Rafale. According to the Eurofighter pilots, this additional power would be particularly appreciable during simulated combat below 20,000 ft, where the density of air allows the engines to be fully expressed. In the battle beyond visual range (BVR), the Typhoon also has an greater “extension” than the Rafale. This is because of the the physical characteristics of the radar, which antenna “sees” futher than the RBE2-PESA, but also because of the dynamic performance of the American missile AIM-120 AMRAAM . Designed exclusively for medium-range interception, it certainly does not have the versatility of the Mica, but it is superior in terms of range. Facing a Rafale, these theoretical advantages, however, must be nuanced.
In BVR combat, although the lengthening of the radar and missiles of the Typhoon are superior, the french Rafale fighter’s radar signature is, according to many pilots, much less important than the Eurofighter’s one. It is therefore an asset. Even better: the sensors fusion which enjoys the Rafale is also a crucial advantage in BVR combat, because it offers the pilots a much better understanding of the tactical situation during combat, and this, 360 degrees around the aircraft.
Once the “merge” is reached (when BVR combat turns into short-range), the Rafale has still strong chances of victory against the Typhoon. In the opinion of French pilots who have confronted the European aircraft, it’s above all the quality of the electric flight controls [FBW] of the French fighter who makes the difference. In dogfight, Rafale can quickly point its nose to the threat, while less degrading its energy than the Eurofighter does. And this partly because the maximum angle of attack of the Rafale is “clamped” around 300, which allows it to evolve in a controlled manner even at low speed.
This difference in terms of maneuverability is also illustrated by the position of the canard on the two planes: placed well in front of the fuselage on the Typhoon, they play the role of an additional control surface used to “steer” more quickly the nose of the plane to take the incidence.
Conversely, the Rafale ducks are located very near the delta wing and are used primarily to pick up the airflow to slow up the loss of lift on the wing, thus giving the pilot a full control of the aircraft at low speeds.

A first indisputable skirmish

The Armée de l’ Air has been able to experience this superiority in dogfight in September 2009, during an exercise organized by the French and British headquarters, during a deployment on the Solenzara airbase in Corsica .
Few days , the EC-1/7 stands next with the Royal Air Force transformation squadron on typhoons. The English have thought of everything, and introduce to the French pilots the simulated engagement patterns they wish to practice facing the Rafale. The French pilots push back a smile: the conditions of the exercice are, on paper, custom-made for the Typhoons , they plan within visual range fights , 1 vs 1, under 20,000 ft and at 350 knots. Whatever. The ‘Provence’ squadron takes up the gauntlet … The 2 planes take off, then meet up at 18 000 ft to start the exercise. The aircraft are flying on the same trajectory with about 2 km of lateral separation. “Turn Away” with this announcement, the pilots turn 45 ° outward, to move away from each other. A few seconds later, the “turn in” and the planes turn toward each other to meet face-to-face in the sky. Once both aircraft is within visual range , its the ultimate ad: “Fight’s on!”. The first skirmish is indisputable. It need less than 40 seconds and only 3 crossing for the Rafale pilot to have its gun in firing position. However, the pilots flying the two planes are far from beginners. While the English is considered a Typhoon specialist in air-to-air, the “Provence” pilot has also a solid experience in within visual range combat.

Nine wins, one defeat

This initial result is not a fluke: the two next passes end also to the advantage of the Rafale. In total, 4 different engagements will take place in Corsica, for a total of 9 wins against 1 defeat for the french fighter. A nice demonstration of force that inspires the pilots the following moral: without mastery, power is nothing … It is however an area where the Typhoon is victorious: the one of exports. While the Rafale is still looking for a first client, the Typhoon has already been sold to Saudi Arabia and Austria, and remains opposed to the Rafale in Switzerland and India.

There’s a reason why it’s called Dissimilar Air Combat Training. The photo you show is of a two-seat Typhoon trainer! And lastly they were students part of a Operational Conversional unit.

F35 Pwii,

That’s non sense…The rafale is a twin seater as well coming from the french rafale transformational unit as well. No student reported and certainly not those who conducted the dogfights.

Transformational unit (rafale typhoon) are meant to learn you how to fly the aircraft. The operational aspect of the work is taught once you have joined your squadron. There is no chance that they would send inexperienced pilots who just learnt to fly and land a typhoon or a rafale in an international exercise, let alone in a dogfight. The pilots who did the dogfights are the instructors of those french and british squadrons.

Rafale can not illuminate a target. Which makes the whole process “interesting”, as the RWR of the Tiffies would never notice that the illumination started (radar mode switch to illumination can not happen).

perhaps I was not clear enough : I meant radar painting or radar contact.

Get your facts right, the only limitation the French had was the simulation of AA-10C missiles, which is a quite long ranging one and which is difficult to simulate as the RBE2 lacks a CW illuminator. So the pilots were possibly not even aware of the simulated missile threats woth no illumination or actual missiles in the air.

Still rafales had to illuminate the target until impact which prevent from making a break to avoid an incoming missile. Moreover the 2 rafales could only fire one missile at a time (2 missiles in total) against 4 typhoons with their full multi-target capability. Normally a single Typhoon should have been well enough.

As for the range of the AA-10C missile it should not have more range than an Aim-120C5 vectored by a supercruising typhoon and you forgot that the second set-up was achieved with even more degraded missile performance.

Even with relatively less experienced typhoon pilots if the MMI as claimed by some is so good this exercise should have been a piece of cake. I would be careful reading to much is one set up but nevertheless I can conclude that the typhoon doesn’t enjoy any “unfair” edge like an F22 would bring and that a rafale is perfectly able to hold its own in a BVR fight vs a typhoon.

Excellent find Tmor,

I just realized that I was myself intoxicated by Lake disinformation and apparently not the only one as even scorpion was wrong. Another proof of Lake lies.

agree with you scorpion my words were a bit too strong but I think you got my point nevertheless. I never called into question the paper exercise but the CBC argument that it was merely an industry/commercial study.

As far as neutrality is concerned this is a non issue for me as long as you are transparent. I don’t have any issue with someone supporting another aircraft that the one I support nor do I have an issue with journalists with an opinion. I do have an issue when Lake takes advantage of his position to bring unsubstantiated claims and pretend to be neutral. That’s not fair. I am sure you get the nuance.

The difference is that as a journalist and an opinion maker it is normal that some call into question his claims while the crowd of rafale enthusiasts are merely anonymous posters that don’t publish.