-As said by Sintra & Jackoniko although the P1E will not bring an AESA it is certainly the most urgently needed step forward to justify its price. What is a bit of a shame is not the lack of AESA but true multirole capability in 2012.

One thing that I agree is that the coming year will be pivotal for the typhoon. If no clear go ahead is given then the program will not have a bright future ahead.

Hopefully the Saudis looks interested in a typhoon upgrade and that would change the situation. This is of particular importance to close the gap when the typhoon lost all its competitions against the rafale when compared during technical evaluations.

@Jackonicko : The RAF is not silent when it wins against F15 or SU30 mki…

He acknowledged it after being confronted with those questions only and that was a few month after the press conference. Sounds more like limitation of liability to me, rather than honesty. At the end of the day I don’t want to turn this into another Rafale/Typhoon discussion. You have your views on the subject I have mine.

Scorpion, with all due respect I think you are wrong on this one.

The press conference : what got out of this is just what french journalists wished to publish. He cannot be accountant of those initial reports. And a press conference is by nature less detailed than an interview in a specialized magazine.

The interview : Nobody forced him to take this interview. It his honor and credibility that he put at stake which is something not that usual when you think about it. He brought some nuances to his own initiative and could have kept these “aspects” for himself if he wished. What could you reproach to him ? He took a huge risk being interviewed in a specialized english speaking magazine…Think about it…I mean as a squadron commander and for the french air force reputation. That should mean he was certainly confident enough ! Really I believe that you and others are some times a bit paranoiac each times a frenchmen declare something. If he had something to hide why taking the interview ? Why such a risk ? And he was not forced to give certain aspects of those DACT so it’s all to its credit.

I am waiting as much transparency from the other side…Waiting for detailed interviews with names and professional reputation at stake with details of the ROE…Nothing like this for the moment hence the credibility deficit. We must swallow the “anecdotal evidences” etc etc of a Typhoon lobbyist for years if you see what I mean…

And even with those precisions taking down 4 typhoons with full capability with only 2 rafales in BVR only using a single missile at a time and illuminating the typhoon till impact is a big performance. And this scenario was repeated twice with one rafale loss the second time vs 7 typhoon losses in total. And again I repeat that other situations could lead to a typhoon advantage and that I am not one of those claiming total superiority. Just that there is a least no significant edge from on side or another like the F22 could bring.

close couple canards, here is a translated quote from Bruno Revellin-falcoz a senior dassault engineer and one of the father of the rafale :

Like many other aircraft makers, Dassault has selected a delta-canard configuration for its latest design. “As we were working with the other Europeans, we started to diverge significantly on the design” explains Bruno Revellin-Falcoz [Director of Dassault’s Technical Department]. “Ultimately, we made some radically different choices. They wanted fuselage-mounted canards while we preferred to locate the canards almost above the wing-root. The key advantage of this configuration was that it would channel the air flow over the wing apex, which is where lift-generating vortices are formed. The Eurofighter Typhoon uses its canards as simple control surfaces. Although this creates a significant lever effect, it loses the positive impact on lift and therefore aerodynamic efficiency. That’s why we are certain that the Rafale can handle much better than the Typhoon at high angles of attack, such as during the crucial phases of dogfighting and low-speed flight. While they were groping around in the dark, we benefited from the know-how accumulated through the Mirage III Milan, Mirage III NG and Mirage 4000 programmes

From A&C

On paper, the Typhoon has some undeniable advantages: more powerful than M88, its two reactors give it a better weight/thrust than the Rafale. According to the Eurofighter pilots, this additional power would be particularly appreciable during simulated combat below 20,000 ft, where the density of air allows the engines to be fully expressed. In the battle beyond visual range (BVR), the Typhoon also has an greater “extension” than the Rafale. This is because of the the physical characteristics of the radar, which antenna “sees” futher than the RBE2-PESA, but also because of the dynamic performance of the American missile AIM-120 AMRAAM . Designed exclusively for medium-range interception, it certainly does not have the versatility of the Mica, but it is superior in terms of range. Facing a Rafale, these theoretical advantages, however, must be nuanced.
In BVR combat, although the lengthening of the radar and missiles of the Typhoon are superior, the french Rafale fighter’s radar signature is, according to many pilots, much less important than the Eurofighter’s one. It is therefore an asset. Even better: the sensors fusion which enjoys the Rafale is also a crucial advantage in BVR combat, because it offers the pilots a much better understanding of the tactical situation during combat, and this, 360 degrees around the aircraft.
Once the “merge” is reached (when BVR combat turns into short-range), the Rafale has still strong chances of victory against the Typhoon. In the opinion of French pilots who have confronted the European aircraft, it’s above all the quality of the electric flight controls [FBW] of the French fighter who makes the difference. In dogfight, Rafale can quickly point its nose to the threat, while less degrading its energy than the Eurofighter does. And this partly because the maximum angle of attack of the Rafale is “clamped” around 300, which allows it to evolve in a controlled manner even at low speed.
This difference in terms of maneuverability is also illustrated by the position of the canard on the two planes: placed well in front of the fuselage on the Typhoon, they play the role of an additional control surface used to “steer” more quickly the nose of the plane to take the incidence.
Conversely, the Rafale ducks are located very near the delta wing and are used primarily to pick up the airflow to slow up the loss of lift on the wing, thus giving the pilot a full control of the aircraft at low speeds.

In WVR a rafale will have the edge at lower speeds and lower altitudes the typhoon should have an edge at higher speed and higher altitudes in a gun vs gun dogfight.

As far as pure aircraft performance is concerned I tend to believe that the rafale would be in most cases the better dogfighter whereas the Typhoon is a better BVR platform.

As for the swiss with an HMD the typhoon should have the edge in WVR but that say nothing as far as gun vs gun/pure maneuverability is concerned and it was still rated below the rafale in both defensive and offensive scenario in an evaluation where AtA engagement was the n°1 criteria. Besides a mica IR simply makes all this “merge” idea simply irrelevant if one wants to make a thorough reasoning with HMD etc.

I believe this “Typhoon world” issue was above all a PR exercise urgently needed after Typhoon recent setbacks (Switzerland, Japan, India…) to revert the “loser” syndrome momentum.

Anyway I will always refer to the swiss evaluation which is the most independent assessment to date. The rest is looking too much into the details and overlooking the broader picture.

I guess the radars in question are those used for trials and demos for exports.

Mrmalaya, France has managed to clinch some major export orders with Malaysia recently mainly eurocopter (although EADS), military vehicles and submarines I think and if I recall well I read a few months ago an article depicting malaysia as a new Eldorado for french defense industry (I think it was A&C). So I would not discount France ability to manage this export campaign especially when they have a mature and proven product to offer.

Indeed Kovy according to JL/Jackoniko/Typhoon fans you can’t believe an officer so I do not understand why they are quoting an officer ????:confused:

Otherwise well for the french side there is….Moussez (Singapore), Granclaudon and captain Romain for ATLC and Corsica.:D I recall they said that the typhoon was inferior in AtA, lost technically etc…

And you are right I do remember JL/Jackoniko/Typhoon fans repeating that the RAF is shy speaking about exercises…Something must have gone wrong.

Even that’s speculation. Perhaps the French just had a more ‘robust’ attitude to risk? Perhaps the French sigint effort before the air campaign had given them the belief that the Libyan AD network wasn’t much of a threat? Or perhaps it was down to SPECTRA. We don’t know.

According to Dassault (fox 3 on libya) and the french air force (Air & Cosmos and others) it was indeed SPECTRA who allowed the rafale to operate the first day of war with enough confidence.