what would be the trick to disappear from radar screen then ?

It is simply inaccurate to compare the damocles XF and other pods as the “XF” design and specification as yet to be frozen. So it could well be superior but for now it is impossible to tell.

I’ve talked very directly with rafale pilots about the Damocles at the lattest Paris Airshow.

What the current Damocles lacks is a high resolution TV Channel which is of particular interest in scenarios like in Astan and Lybia were you need to ID individuals.

Even the current IR matrix resolution isn’t that great.

The only aspect of the Damocles which is on par with most modern pods is the Laser as it was design to engage targets from as far as possible and as a consequence it has an oversized laser.

One should understand that the Damocles Pod was designed before the AASM existed so the imperative was to strike targets day or night from a safe distance. This feature was required especially after the Kosovo experience. But the possibility to ID groups of individuals was not in the original specs.

Stil it does the job well when you don’t need to ID individuals. You can find better pods on the market but in most cases it is ok.

I think the Spectra upgrade might be a result of UAE demand on a better EW system, perhaps they chose to do the upgrade for commonality with French
fighters

In fact that’s not the case. I had a direct insight no latter than a few weeks ago from a relative working at Thales as a top excutive. (Thanks to whom I get plenty of entries at the paris air show).

The current upgrade is physically underway right now while UAE upgrade development is just starting and will involve several hundred of engineers at Ellancourt (literally). What I learnt is that the difficulty now is to find the appropriate skilled manpower in a short time frame and as a consequence they are looking in each Thales subsidiary to boost the development team for the time to come.

They had to start development before the signature of the contract to respect the deadlines. The same method also occured for the indian mirage 2000 upgrade contract.

I’ve also talked to pilots on various occasions and since 2011 to foreign one who approached both the rafale and typhoon and they preferred rafale MMI (consistent with what was reported by test evaluation pilots). As for others (PC and GT) I disagree that they would have no clue of what they are talking about. In this case you and me could not debate of such things. But I guess this will go nowhere so perhaps it is better to move on : As long as we don’t have a clear referential to make a possible benchmark the truth is that it is hardly possible to come to anything precise although checkable sources tend toward a rafale advantage in this aera.

I would also advise you to employ more moderate words. What is “revolutionary changes” ? This tend to undermine your points.

mrmalaya,

Of course you can dismiss those “reports” etc but if we play this game what to believe… ? If we had to eliminate all pieces of info from the country of origin think what would it imply for the typhoon and all the “second best” argument.

That’s why the multiplicity of sources I gave make this claim much more credible especially as you have at least two foreign report. That’s how I work here : finding a common direction & cross check references. There is clearly a consistency between sources saying rafale Situation Awarness, Sensor fusion & MMI is excellent and most probably ahead of the typhoon. At least I am able to bring various sources and not unsubstantiated claims which should at minimum put a huge pinch of salt on JL claims.

As for Torpy he could have just said “thank you for the flight” and making a consensual speech about franco-british cooperation. Yet he specifically insisted on the sensor fusion and cockpit…Not innocent. Anyway I know another british pilot who said this (Peter collins) :

In answer to my own evaluation objectives, it was obvious the Rafale has earned its omnirole definition, even though I barely scratched the surface of its sensor and weapon capabilities. The aircraft has an incredible level of performance befitting a fourth-generation type, and despite flying a highly complex and demanding evaluation sortie, I felt completely at home in the aircraft and retained full situational awareness. If it could keep me safe, it would also do the same for young first-tourist pilots coping with tactical operations.

The classic definitions of aircraft combat roles really do not do justice to this aircraft; the Rafale is Europe’s force-multiplying “war-fighter” par excellence. It is simply the best and most complete combat aircraft that I have ever flown. Its operational deployments speak for themselves. If I had to go into combat, on any mission, against anyone, I would, without question, choose the Rafale.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/flight-test-dassault-rafale-rampant-rafale-334383/

Without taking literally what he said it is yet another clue.

You can add the swiss report as well to cross check my sources (better SA).

I’ve given you a flavour of P1E. It’s a seismic shift, and it makes more of a difference to the Typhoon’s capabilities than does the step from Rafale F2 to F3. You might say that it needs to, as F2 Rafale was already pretty impressive, so the F3 upgrade represented an evolution rather than a revolution.

You haven’t given any concrete evidence of comparison. As a consequence these remains empty hyperbolic claims. seismic ? Talk about hyperbolism…So when if it gets an AESA what will it be ? The upgrade of the universe ? The point is that you are short of evidences to even start backing your claims. Note that I don’t discount the upgrade just that nothing indicates it will be “seismic”:rolleyes: and that the scope go beyhond the F3 standard.

As to MMI, it’s you who are talking nonsense. There is nothing old fashioned about Typhoon’s cockpit layout, but in any case, MMI is all about how the displays work, not where they are positioned. The Swiss confirmed that Typhoon has a much lower cockpit workload, and, having actually talked to pilots who have flown both types, I’m quite convinced that Typhoon enjoys a superior MMI. This is particularly true with HEA, as the Typhoon pilot can now have the tactical situation displayed in his sightline, wherever he is looking.

Just as Rafale enjoys some advantages over Typhoon, the reverse is also true, and one of the biggest Typhoon advantages lies in its MMI. Only the “Rafale is best in every way” fanboys bother denying it.

I am sorry but agin no evidences, unsubstantiated empty claims. The swiss said the rafale offered a better Situation awareness & sensor fusion which is also linked to MMI. MMI is indeed a big “plus” for the rafale compared to the typhoon. Even without a DVI and an HMS the rafale was pretty close to the typhoon for “pilot workload” which tells volume about the quality of rafale MMI. Give it an HMS and it will be far ahead.

Note that I am not Fonck, Dare 2 etc and I am not one of those who claims that rafale is “best” in every aspect. Just that in those cases you bring zero evidences.

I will for rafale MMI :

test evaluation pilots (!) :

“We were surprised by the efficiency of the Spectra electronic warfare system. It gave us a DEAD [destruction of enemy air defenses] capability that we had not envisaged. Spectra gave us a bearing on a [simulated] SAM site, despite our having been deliberately given the wrong location by intelligence. Then the FSO slewed to confirm the location.

“At Dushanbe, we’ve achieved 12 maintenance man-hours per flying hour with three Rafales. That’s the same rate as our Mirage 2000Ds–which is a mature weapons system.

“I have flown foreign evaluation pilots in our two-seaters, who have also flown the Eurofighter and the Gripen. They told me that our man-machine interface and data fusion is better than those aircraft.”

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/paris-air-show/2007-06-18/rafale-comes-battle-hardened

RAF Chief of air staff Glenn Thorpy (!)

the Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Sir Glenn Torpy visited the French Air Force base at St Dizier this week and had the opportunity to fly in a Rafale F2 with the Officer Commanding from 17 Squadron. 17 Squadron is the first French Air Force Squadron to incorporate an Operational Evaluation Unit (OEU) and a Operational Conversion Unit (OCU)
The sortie; a medium level close air support mission which included Terrain Following Radar (TFR), consisted of 2 x Rafale F2; which has a full air-to-ground attack capability, against 2 x Mirage 2000 RDI multirole fighter aircraft. Air chief Marshal Sir Glenn Torpy was impressed with the Rafale F2 performance and the intuitive cockpit layout, and greatly impressed with the sensor fusion. The Rafale F2 aircraft at present are deployed in Afghanistan by the French Air Force and French Navy.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/archive.cfm?storyid=326752CD-1143-EC82-2EFB230750159FD9

Greek pilots (!) after Agean gust exercise :

The impressions of the greek pilots from the Rafale, were concentrated on the very good situatnio awareness , thanks to link 16 and the big touch screens. These were proved to provide very good image even in conditions of intensive sunshine, which often reduces visibility. In general, the cockpit layout, particularly impresses the greek pilots. Particularly interest also had the use of the Spectra, on the use of which, the french base some of their air tactics that have developed.

http://rafale.freeforums.org/rafale-vs-f-16-t66.html

rafale vs typhoon UAE :

Some advantages that make the difference.

However, he heavily emphasized the performance of the french system in the field of arms data fusion, from his point of view the main reason of the superiority obtained. Instead of each sensor to display its studs (aircraft detected) on a specific screen, forcing the Typhoon pilot to operate an intellectual gymnastics , annoying in combat stress, to check if the plot of its corresponding screen of electronic warfare was or was not the one visible on the radar screen or IRST, the Rafale’s systems present to the pilot a single plot on a screen, the system automatically compares the plots provided by the various sensors on board and decides if it is or not the same plane. The french pilots have also appreciated the agility of the antenna of the electronic RBE2 radar – The Typhoon has for now only a mechanical antenna – allowing to refresh the situation in the whole volume monitored. But they insist, for close combat, on the perfect controllability of their Rafale, thanks to the excellence of FBW, to the extreme limits of the flight envelope..

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?137433-Rafale-News/page92

Captain Romain :

The Rafale merges the informations coming from its sensors to give a very reliable and clear picture to the pilot. It’s already a considerable advantage over previous-generation aircraft, including EF and Gripen.

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=103455&page=13

And yes rafale cockpit with its inclined seat and side stick is much more comfortable. I tried both at paris airshow and the difference is evident and also reported by pilots.

Ok thanks for the effort it is now clearer.

I know that software changes can have a big impact but does the P1E include other things ? what the delivery commitment schedule ?

Because when I make a comparison with a program that I know much better (rafale) thorough software changes occur quite regularly adding new capabilites or refining existing ones (F2.1, F2.2, F2.3 then F3.1, F3.2, and soon F3.3), not to mention thorough hardware upgrades like the spectra which is currently getting a major upgrade for the whole fleet independently of different tranches and blocks.

From an external view the P1E is certainly an important step for the typhoon but if you put that in perspective with other program this looks as nothing really exceptional.