eagle1The negotiations will most probably not stop during the probe so unless they find something really wrong it should not affect the end of the exclusive negotiations schedule.
The probe could well be a good thing as if suspicions are officialy dismissed as they already were a few days ago by the IAF then other attempt to screw the deal by external stakeohlder will be much harder to settle.
In fact there are as much chances that this affair being a sheer manipulation from Dassault or BAE & EADS. There is also a chance that this probe is an opportunity for Indian MoD to quell any objections quickly.
Anyway even without the complex L1 formula you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to understand that the rafale is clearly cheaper than the typhoon. A complete reversal is very unlikely and would look even more suspicious.
eagle1isn’t the same Deccan chronicle who reported that the rafale performed “a notch higher than the Typhoon” during the technical evaluation ?
“Rafale figures a notch higher than Typhoon in terms of performance and involves easier adaptability as it is logistically and operationally similar to Mirage-2000, used extensively by our boys during the Kargil conflict in 1999. The French government has also cleared the technology transfer, including the AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar,” sources in the IAF told Deccan Chronicle.
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/channels/nation/south/rafale-typhoon-score-merit-126
According to last friday A&C there are already Indian engineers working in Dassaults plants to learn how to manufacture the rafale. I would find quite surprising that the decision could reverse at this stage given all the declaration of fairness and transparency of this competition.
eagle1Rafale over afghanistan :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LwMzEjJkDc&feature=related
At 12’00 you can see J-TAC working with rafale to provide CAS and then a double GBU-12 release.
eagle1Although the gripen may offer a better value for money for many situations as compared to bigger aircrafts it sizes prevents it to achieve effectively more “strategic” missions when range&payload is an important factor.
So it all boils down to how a given country value its “strategic reach”.
Gripen customers usually does not face important threats as the neighboring countries are either friendly or/and relatively poorly equipped. In this situation the gripen choice makes sense. Switzerland or Brazil could well do with the gripen but India or the UAE are obviously looking for more punch.
And even in switzerland the airforce was more keen getting the max performance as their evaluation showed. The politicians said they could do with the gripen NG as its performance was enough although still not as good as the rafale and typhoon.
To conclude the gripen has found a nice “specific” place on the market of fighter jets. Arguably not the best performer but well enough for many airforces that does not pretend to prevail in a region but rather have a”credible” force.
eagle1report :
Dassault Says Indian Fighter Jet Deal Secure as Talks Intensify
Bloomberg , March 9Dassault Aviation SA (AM) is confident that an accord to supply at least 126 Rafale combat planes to India will cross all hurdles as the French company intensifies negotiations to clinch the first-ever export deal for the jet.
Dassault and India are now in final talks to conclude details of the contract, after the Rafale was given preference over the competing Eurofighter jet last month, Chief Executive Officer Charles Edelstenne said in an interview in Paris. Negotiations may wrap up by the end of the year, he said. Selling the Rafale to India would mark a major victory for Edelstenne, who has had to rely on France as the aircraft’s sole customer. The Indian backing for the $11 billion contract has boosted Dassault’s hopes it can also prevail in Brazil, and help raise production rates of the Rafale that are now hovering at the minimum of one a month, the CEO said.
“For 15 years, we’ve been saying the Rafale costs less than the Eurofighter,” Edelstenne said. “Now it’s the Indians who are saying it.”
Dassault will prevail against the Eurofighter in India because in every competition where the two jets have been in direct competition, the French model gained higher rankings, even if it ultimately didn’t win the final deal, the CEO said.
Edelstenne said Dassault can easily boost production to two or three Rafales a month or more if needed, depending on what other orders the company may win. Beyond Brazil and the United Arab Emirates, Dassault is also pitching the plane to other export prospects he said, including Malaysia.
Fighting Back
Dassault has already delivered 106 of 180 fighters ordered by France, which has said it will order 286 planes over the lifetime of the plane. Edelstenne said India’s naming Dassault as lowest-bidder would help generally export prospects .
British Prime Minister David Cameron has said he would keep fighting for the Eurofighter Typhoon, partly built by BAE Systems Plc (BA/), to get back into the contest. Louis Gallois, the CEO of European Aeronautic, Defence & Space Co. (EAD), said yesterday the only way for his company to get back to into the contest is if talks between Dassault and the Indian side fall through.
Until India decided on the Rafale, Dassault had failed to win any export contracts for the aircraft, losing out in a half dozen competitions to countries including Singapore, South Korea, Morocco, the Netherlands, and Switzerland.
U.S. manufacturers beat Dassault in all those contests except in Switzerland, where Saab AB (SAABB)’s Gripen has been pre- selected. The company still hasn’t given up in Switzerland, Edelstenne said, citing a review of the decision process.
Long Relations
Dassault’s relations with India date back 60 years. India was the very first export customer for Dassault, ordering 71 Ouragans in June 1953, and India has purchased most Dassault models sold since. India replaced the Ouragans with Dassault’s Mystere IV A in 1957, procuring 104 in 1957 and using them in 1961 for air strikes against the Portuguese colony of Daman.
The French company will gradually turn over the manufacturing of its plane for the Indian market to local businesses because that was a requirement India had set for all competitors, he said. Dassault will provide the assistance required to do that.
“Little by little, the whole plane will come to be produced in India within 10 years,” he said. “We are open to all transfers of technology, I don’t fear competition.”
and according to A&C there are already several top indian engineers learning how the rafale is manufactured in france.
eagle1A&C news :
-First GBU-49 drop with the rafale in the coming days. It will soon be fully integrated with the rafale (Air force and navy).
-First AESA rafale to be delivered to the CEAM (french air force operational test center) this summer in august.
eagle1Sintra,
I agree that he might have been inaccurate…Or perhaps not but we don’t have enough element to really know. My point is that you can’t dismiss all what he said because of one claim taken in the context of a “flame” with some posters on this forum a while ago. Even if you are skeptical with his statement on this particular point we should not forget that he brought many precisions as far as the brazilian evaluation process is concerned. As a aviation journalist and member of the brazilian committee he certainly has the credentials to give his view on the evaluation process.
eagle1Sorry for the innacurate choice of word. Still as an official dassault’s paper it holds some credibility. Advertising does not mean lying especially as Dassault is not trying to sell to uninformed individual like for mass selling goods but rather expert people who know their business in evaluating aircrafts.
eagle1What’s wrong with that ? According to Dassault’s own report (fox three) the rafale could “literally disappear” from lybian air defense radars. With the right jamming librairy and technique it is nothing impossible. It was also reported by Pierre Yves Chatiel a thales senior engineer in an interview with Bill sweetman. The latter speculated about AC but if you isolate this “speculation” it makes DAssault and pepe rezende claim very credible.
eagle1It was not ranked first at all it is just a report of old rearsh rumors.
Since then many details were leaked about the evaluation and it placed the rafale clearly ahead. It was confirmed by Pepe rezende himself on this very forum (he is a member of the Brazilian defense comitee). To be more accurate all met the minimum requirements but the transfer of technology is the decisive factor that is pushing for the rafale. In switzerland it was the price. Different approach.
The cost of the advance
Claudio Dantas Smith and Octavio CostaIt takes the government to decide which game will equip the Air Force delays plans for defense of the country and threatens the credibility of the negotiations with the three finalists
FIGHTING Factory Dassault: 36 fighters would cost $ 10 billion
The competition for the purchase of 36 fighter jets by the FAB, estimated at $ 10 billion, seems an endless novel. In the latest chapter, the Defense Minister Nelson Jobim announced further postponement in the selection of fighters, this time to January 2010. It said the reasons for and command of the FAB remain silent so as not to break the hierarchy. The cost of this uncertainty is enormous, because it affects not only the credibility of the negotiations and delay the defense plans of the country, which sees its airspace vulnerable. “You can not stay in this litany. Whether the political criterion, either by coach, you need to resolve them, “said retired Colonel Geraldo Cavagnari, the Center for Strategic Studies at Unicamp. He explains that, once decided to purchase, will run six months until the contract is signed. For the analyst of international security Gunther Rudzītis is necessary to prevent a repeat of the failure of the FX program, held over the last year of the Cardoso government, and finally canceled in 2003. Brazil is in urgent need of a generation of fighter aircraft to ensure the safety of the heavens and their wealth in the territorial sea. ISTOÉ obtained confidential details of the offers of the finalists: the French Rafale from Dassault, the American F-18 Super Hornet, Boeing, and the Swedish Gripen NG, the Saab.
The report shows the FAB strengths and weaknesses of each plane using a color code (blue, yellow and red) instead of notes.
Of the three, the French jet introduced technology package more comprehensive and Swedish appears at first sight, had the best price. Your unit value, without the package of armaments and maintenance costs, is U.S. $ 50 million. It would be a good deal, not for the Gripen NG only one project in development. This makes it impossible to calculate their real costs and ensure compliance with deadlines. Despite the expectation of development together with Embraer, the dome of Defense knows that choosing the Gripen NG would be like signing a blank check. FAB this item marked in red. “You can not buy what is on the drawing board,” warns Cavagnari. In fact, the historical records of the airline industry in the world attest to the instability of estimates on a plane is not yet operational. The F-18 Super Hornet, for example, showed average growth of 100% between the amount originally planned pelosfabricantes and the final cost of the project, which reached U.S. $ 9.5 billion.
SHADOWS The French Rafale is a fighter with more ability to remain invisible to enemy radar
Nevertheless, the U.S. fighter is offered today at a stable price of $ 55 million. In the case of the Rafale, to be fully operational, it took 7.5 billion euros (U.S. $ 10.9 billion), a difference of 50% over the initial estimate. Your unit price without arms and support was 94 million euros ($ 136 million) when he began to be sold, but then fell to 54 million euros ($ 78 million). This is the value offered to Brazil in the last proposal and even practiced by Dassault with the French government. Besides the price issue, raised by President Lula during the visit of French counterpart Nicolas Sarkozy ABrasilia in September, is at stake in the term. According Cavagnari, the defense sector is in the process of dismantling advanced, which began in 1995. “We have immediate needs of air power that must be addressed,” he explains. Then there is another problem. FAB to receive the first aircraft in 2014. Who guarantees to deliver the request in a timely manner? Dassault is in the production line of Rafale heated by new orders from the French government, which gives security to meet the deadlines. The Boeingtradição punctuality in sales of F-18. Already a Saab should take eight years to make their hunting operation. For example, the radar that will equip the Gripen began to be developed this year alone.
“To have an idea, Saab develops radar Caesar for the Typhoon fighter for five years and forecast to be ready is 2016. Now they say they can develop a similar radar, the Raven, to equip the Gripen NG, 2011. I find it unlikely, “said the expert Pedro Paulo Rezende. Another important point in the analysis of FAB is the cost of flight-hours. An airplane that consumes too much is not feasible in the long term. The time of flight of the F-18 is $ 11 thousand, while that of the Rafale is U.S. $ 14 mil. Since the Gripen, according to Saab, it would be $ 4 mil. But the Technical Committee of the FX-2 (Copac), from calculations based on data extrapolated maintenance Gripen C / D (prior to version NG), found a very different value: U.S. $ 8 mil. Similarly, Norway and the Netherlands, to assess the Swedish hunting, came to U.S. $ 10 mil. The divergence of information led to the FAB mark this item Gripen in yellow attention. The F-18 won blue for that matter, but reddened under “radar signature”, which means tracking by enemy radar. The Rafale, according to official figures, the game is more “invisible” among competitors.
Board wants to hear Saito confirm that FAB prefer Rafale
To the Minister Nelson Jobim, the Brazilian Air Force (FAB) prefer to buy French Rafale fighters to refit the force. The statement was made on Wednesday in the House of Representatives.
Minister Nelson Jobim said in open court in the Foreign Relations Committee that the Air Force commander, Brigadier Juniti Saito, showed a preference for the Rafale, despite its higher cost. “He said that the technical aspects, all three proposals meet, but the Air Force Command believes that the Rafale fighter is what most corresponds to National Defense Strategy, despite the costs,” Jobim said, as matter of O Globo.
The statement Jobim contradicts previous information where the French fighter had been considered the worst choice among the three models in contention: the Gripen, the Rafale and F18.
To clarify, the Commission on Science and Technology of the House should invite Brigadier Juniti Saito, commander of the FAB, to explain both the criteria for evaluation of aircraft as the preference of the FAB.
Jobim says he will send the report about fighters to Lula next week
RIO DE JANEIRO (*******) – After repeated delays, the Defense Minister Nelson Jobim said on Tuesday it intends to submit next week to President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva the technical report on the acquisition of fighter jets to fleet renewal Brazilian Air Force (FAB).
[…]
“I’m finishing this report. It’s tricky. I hope to finish next week the phase of the explanatory memorandum to send to the president,” Jobim told reporters after participating in a exchange of generals in the Eastern Military Command in Rio de Janeiro.Jobim acknowledged that the process of choosing the fighters are late. “I’ve traveled a lot. It’s true,” added the minister, who believes that the procedure of choice for Lula will take place later in the first half-year.
[B]Recently, Jobim said that the FAB opted for the French fighter jets after a technical analysis of the aircraft.Asked about the choice on Tuesday, the minister evaded. “live life one day at a time” he said[/B]
Jobim says that decision on fighters should be taken this semester
Noticias Terras , May 28Defense Minister Nelson Jobim said on Friday he is confident that the decision on the bids for the purchase of 36 fighters, with competing companies from France, United States and Sweden will be taken “before the end of the first semester.”
He explained that the matter is in the hands of the National Defense Council, which brings together various ministries, and shall prepare a report which will be discussed later with President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva, who will make the final decision.
According to a study prepared by the Air Force, the favorites to win the contest are the Rafale fighter-bombers of the French company Dassault , which compete with the F/A-18 Super Hornet, the American Boeing and Gripen NG, the Swedish Saab
The minister said he is confident that the process will be concluded before the end of next month.He denied that the campaign climate in the country could delay the decision. According to Jobim, “National Defense is not designed by political comings and goings ” but for “strategic needs”.The minister recalled, moreover, that the renewal of the fleet of fighter-bomber is a subject that began to be discussed in 1995 and has since been suspended for different reasons. However, Jobim said that this time the process moves forward steadily and “will be completed
Sarkozy reinforces the Rafale lobby
Correio Braziliense via Notimp, nov 13[…]
Sources from the Planalto confirm that before 31 December will be announced the winner of competition opened with the government of Fernando Henrique Cardoso
Prior, Lula intends to consult once again the defense minister, Nelson Jobim, and the elected president Rousseff. Jobim, who met yesterday in Brasilia the Commander of the Air Force Juniti Saito, delivered to the president the technical memorandum of the ministry, pointing the French fighter as the best option.[…]
The climate [of the meeting] between Lula and Sarkozy was a farewell between good friends. The French president went on to say that his colleague should not leave the international scene, and suggested that Lula will continue acting in the G-20. There are speculations that the Brazilian president may take the head of the Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) in Rome.
eagle1A&C repor rafale M F1 upgrade
Just read in Air & Cosmos a report about the rafale M F1 upgrade to the F3 standard.
For each aircraft the upgrade will take a full year !!!!
All the avionics will change and there is a long and difficult process to remake the avionic bay, remake the spectra modules and change all the electric wires and systems distribution. It is a very challenging work.
The hardest will be for the rafale M1 which is not a fully production aircraft as it was close to the earlier prototypes.
eagle1Dilma now hurried to define the Brazilian fighter
o Estado de Sao Paulo , Feb 25The choice of the new fighter of the Brazilian Air Force (FAB), the F-X2 program, entered the final stage.
[…]
There are good reasons for this. The window of opportunity will remain open only for six months. After September, it will be difficult for any of the three finalists to start delivery in the needed period, between 2015 and 2016.
[…]
The credit operation is one of the sensitive points of the choice. Several months ago the defense market moving information that competitors French (Dassault, the Rafale) and Swedish (Saab, with the Gripen) would have prolongated the amortization and grace periods.Boeing (with the Super Hornet F-18) faces problems: Eximbank can not finance the sale of military products, leading the operation to private banks and higher interest rates.
The Rafale selection of 126 units for aviation in India is a factor considered in Brazil’s choice – however, it is not decisive. The transaction still depends on the financial arrangements and technology transfer. It is the bias that interests the F-X2, whose foundation is the unrestricted access to knowledge.
There is also a slight preference for twin-engine models, the F-18 and Rafale, especially among the fighter pilots. Engineers point out the possibility of developing a complete project, only offered by Saab.
Even though the rafale is a favorite in Brazil the competition seems rather “open”.
eagle1rafale for UAE and other new developments
It seems that Sarkozy is keeping a political card in the run up for presidency. Which timing will he chose ?
Air&Cosmos 2301, feb 24 , page 8:
Rafale to the UAE
[…]
All the hard points would have been Solved between Dassault Aviation and the Emirates for the sale of 60 Rafale. Almost all contractual documents were signed during the last weeks. It would only lack a state to state agreement strengthening military cooperation between the two countries around the French plane. A project that absolutely must be completed before the first round of the presidential election…
development of new capabilities :
Air&Cosmos 2301, feb 24 , page 17:
DGA continuing to prepare the future
[…]
new investment efforts of several tens of millions euros on the Rafale roadmap for the “development of new radar modes and the reinforcement of electronic countermeasure (ECM) capacities[…]
Air Fan , Feb 2012 , page 2
For a few months, some Rafale M feature a new blade antenna installed just behind the cockpit. This VHF / FM equipment , also mounted on SEM and on a very small number of Rafale Air [look down], improves encrypted inter-allied exchanges , including on the Afghan theater. This facility became necessary because a majority of “forward air controllers” on the ground (FAC) uses the FM band
eagle1MSA and PESA have by design strenght and weaknesses.
As already said the scanning speed of ESA radars allow true “track while scan” and “iterlacing” modes will give you a better SA once you are engaging your ennemy as you can still monitor the tactical situation much more efficiently.
This feature is probably what allowed the RBE2 PESA to gain swiss praises and to allow the rafale to score well in detection and Situation awarness.
Add to the gain of SA the inehrent versatilty liked to ESA radar and a better resistence to jamming and you get a very capable radar. Of course AESA radar in the next step, but the PESA was the smartest path toward AESA especiallyfor an aircraft that wants to boast true multirole capabilities.
The idea of caracterizing a radar as superior as anotherone when the approach is not the same is just oversimplistic. Only JLake went this way and was proven wrong by the swiss.
eagle1JLake is a master for creating rumors with him as a single source and of course no way to cross check his opinions. Hopefully his saying are seriously challenge with ATLC, Corsica, Swiss evaluation and India. It is not about that we can’t accept rafale weaknesses it is about putting fact straight and making a distinction of what is an unbacked claims from a fact. Obviously he has problem between the two.
Singapore and dutch evaluation as well as the MMI are case in point where despite lacking argument and sources he keeps going on with mere lies.
Here is a traduction from a dutch article who gave an insight in the dutch evaluation process…It completely debunks the “cbc” argument which does not make any sense as the F35 would certainly not score the best if it was a mere economical and industry evaluation.
Here is true journalism with a detailed insight of the dutch evaluation unlike Lake farce :
The multi-criteria analysis, in cooperation with TNO and Dutch Laboratory for Atmospheric and Space (NLR) was performed, was a time consuming exercise. First were 700 criteria that the new fighter had to comply. Then experts gave a figure for each criterion. The weighted average of the scores was an indication of the system effectiveness of any device – in plain English: how well the aircraft was.
In the Court Brief on the JSF decision of February 11, 2002 was the multi-criteria analysis in detail. The government stressed in the letter detailed the purity of the process. The operation of the Air Force was rated by an independent working group of the Ministry of Defense, wrote the government. It had ruled that “the candidates thoroughly and carefully review”was conducted.
The evaluation itself was not the House. The same was true for the so-called B / C paper, the results were described. Both documents contain confidential commercial information from aircraft manufacturers and are therefore confidential.
According to the Air Force, the uncertainties involved. In the multi-criteria analysis, as wrote the Air Force in the B / C paper, the uncertainties “adequately addressed”.
In this analysis, some criteria are not one, but three scores out. The median score, the “expected performance” again. In addition, experts also had a top and a given value. After all values were added together, the multi-criteria analysis yielded three final scores on the system effectiveness.
The median score gave the Air Force how well the aircraft would be in 2010. The top score was the most optimistic expectations of the performance, the score was the worst case scenario. “This leads to more complete picture of system effectiveness with uncertainties, risks but also potential”, wrote the Air Force.
http://vorige.nrc.nl/nieuwsthema/jsf/article1977507.ece/Vergelijken_van_papieren_vliegtuigen
Quite consistent with the swiss methodology by the way ? But nothing like a mere industry and economical analysis only…You are not close to see anything like that from Lake who remain at the stage of vague unbacked claims.
another :
http://www.dedefensa.org/article.php?art_id=84
“A surprising and important detail had been made public: the technological and operational evaluation by the RNAF of the three candidates. According to the RNAF criteria, the JSF had been graded 6.97; the Rafale, 6.95; and the Eurofighter Typhoon, 5.85. “
Sign In
