To try to answer you :
CFT
They are currently dropped unless some customers wants to pay for it. 3*2000L + heavy load is considered well enough for the french armed forces. The option exists and it already flew with CFTs but I would say that the chance to see rafale operational with CFTs is slim. I would guess that the UAE could be interested but nothing certain though.
F1 to F3
I don’t knwo about tranche1 upgrade but the F1 to F3 upgrade is a difficult one as :
-avionic bays are of different shape so you need to physically “remake” some parts in the rafale.
-avionics systems are different (radar, spectra) so you can’t re-use major physical electronic parts.
-The wiring and electric power system is deifferent so there is a long work of de-wiring and rewiring
-The main processor is different
In the end it is a 1 year per aircraft upgrade worth a good share of the aircraft total value.
This work is “taylormade” and is not sustainable for a larger fleet of F1 as the delivery schedule is pretty slow.
Étrelles. Gerard Longuet visit Thales
Vitre Maville, March 14Wednesday afternoon, the Minister of Defense and Veterans Affairs visited the site of Thales Microelectronics at Etrelles. For an hour, he visited the premises before signing the certificate for the “10,000th active module produced” , used in the construction of the Rafale fighter plane.
It looks like the production od RBE2 AESA is well under way now with the 10 000th active module delivered.
It depends how low you set the limit.
The typhoon is multirole (it can drop gravity laser bombs) but to be trully regarded as a multirole aircraft it will need much more to compete on international markets.
The typhoon arguably brings very good AtA raw performance but brings nothing special at all in the AtG arena which usually represents 99,99999% of missions.
Also the argument of the tornado being complementary with the typhoon is fine for UK or Germany but try to explain that to export customers…
When in 2006 it was decided to launch the rafale roadmap in france it was a clear move for export markets and not for the french air force who did not needed this standard urgently. So you can perfectly have capabilities that you do not need right now but still invest to remain competitive for the export market. It is just a matter of will.
In the case of this thread the point is that it would have been smarter to invest on the Typhoon as it :
-offer greater life span and future
-would boost its chance on international markets
These two reasons should have called for investing on the typhoon rather than the tornado even if in the absolute the tornado is a better striker.
As all typhoon partner are so reluctant to fund AtG upgrades for the typhoon this has lead me to think that there is little faith turning this aircraft in a potent multirole aircraft because :
-without CFT or larger drop tanks it is pointless integrating Cruise missiles or other large weapons like the GBU-24. CFT is certainly quite difficult and costly to integrate and that would be a too big hurdle to clear.
-Its natural unstability might be an issue to deal with assymetric configuration and would lead to difficult AtG integration.
The UK plans to operate its GR4s until 2020-25 and then operate Typhoon alongside the F35 and future UCAVs.
How does Germany upgrading ageing but capable aircraft (Tornado) have any bearing on the utility of Typhoon.
mrmalaya,
I can give you a counter example from france :
The mirage 2000D are also expected to remain in service till 2025-2030 and at some point a 700M€ upgrade was in the pipe with RDY, AASM, mica IR and link 16.
In the end it was scrapped and the money went for the rafale program which is also gaining capabilities that the mirage 2000D already had like the GBU-24 for instance.
I agree with you.
With light loads the gripen NG will retain a good performance and is a good choice for switzerland as far as costs vs capabilities is concerned.
My point as always been that the gripen is an exellent choice for many countries that want to have a credible and modern airforce at a reasonnable cost.
For countries that want to have a bigger regional impact with the capability to strike far with heavy loads bigger aircrafts are necessary. I don’t see the UAE who are looking for an aircraft able to perform deep strike in Iran against hardened targets picking the gripen for instance.
So it all boils down to the role you want to play in a given region and the cost you are ready to invest in fighterjets.
And despite it small size the gripen NG can arguably compete nicely with the the Typhoon in terms of “range & heavy loads” as the phoon as a terrible payload & fuel arrangement especially for its cost and size.
still officialy Mauer told “we cannot always afford the better” meaning the gripen NG eventually met the minimum requirement but ended last of the technical evaluation. Other factor like costs and industry participation helped it being chosen.
Besides there is currently an inquiry about a last minute fraudulous change of the evaluation ranking to help the gripen NG achieving the minimum requirements. Leaks came directly within the Swiss air Force and were regarded as serious enough to launch an official inquiry.
It is quite surprising that they did not push the typhoon instead…It has far more life span ahead of it.
This raise some interogations about the “feasibility” of turning the typhoon in a true multirole platform.
One thing I am thinking of is that without CFT or bigger drop tank development & integration integrating new weapons with the typhoon would not make a lot of sense….Imagine two taurus or two GBU 24 but just a single 1000L drop tanks and even none if you want to fit a LDP !
As far as I am concerned I see a clear issue with the payload & fuel arrangement that limits typhoon multirole value unless they go ahead with CFT and bigger drop tank.
Another issue that could be linked with the first one is that the typhoon is a very unstable aircraft due to the high supersonic maneuvrability requirement. I bet integrating new large weapons and CFTs is not that easy if you want to achieve full care free handling.
Otherwise the lack of enthusiasm to develop AtG capabilities for the typhoon is hardly understandable…There is a limit of the tornado for AtG argument…This situation can’t last for years anymore.
Uli Mauer himslef declared that “we cannot always afford the best”. So the gripen NG might have reach the minimum requirement (although leaks from the swiss air force tell it was manipulated) but the NG was still n°3 as far as the technical evaluation is concerned in its final form. Other criteria (costs, industry participation) pushed for the gripen NG.
still from A&C translted by Olybrius from mp :
Who could work with Dassault ?
Air & Cosmos , march 9To fulfill the conditions of the MoD in matter of offsets, Dassault Aviation will not only work with large state firms like HALand Bharat Electronics, the champion of Indian radars. The MoD wants also to promote the industrial private sector. Its agency for offsets, the Dofa, has referenced fifty players capable of producing equipment or systems for the Indian Rafale. These include Bharat Heavy Electricals, a diversified group which manufactures flight simulators and avionics, Larsen & Toubro (sensors, radars …), Samtel (cockpit equipment, navigation), the latter being a partner of Thales for renovation of the Indian Mirage 2000 through a JV. There are also Alpha-ITL Electro Optics and Memory Electronics, which manufactures optronic equipment, or groups not necessarily specialists in matter of defense, like Reliance (who just signed an agreement with Dassault), Mahindra & Mahindra and Tata Power. The latter has created a division in combat systems and data link. Without forgetting ECIL, which manufactures joysticks and black boxes, or Precision Electronics, specialist in cabling.
In contrast, the Dofa list has few industrial specialized in aerostructures: there is Aurora Integrated Systems and Infra Polytec. Logically, this area is the prerogative of HAL.
The only aspect about the Rafale that is clearly cheaper is its fuel consumption – by virtue of its smaller size and greater optimization for subsonic flight.
You are forgetting the impact of having less moving parts and as a consequence less hydraulic systems :
Fixed refueling probe, fixed intakes, no dorsal airbreak and a fixed radar means less check, maintenance duties and risk of failures and thus better avalaibility rates.
for the rest feel free to believe what you want, it’s a matter of selecting the informations that suit you or not but there is nothing certain in those claims that you are advancing.
lol:D
but then I will turn it as the rafale as a better optimized internal structure and that would result in lower costs:p
more is not always better
No that’s just common sense and if even Dassault’ CEO claims it there must be ground for this.
As for the lower production rate this is balanced by the fact that the same workers that are making the rafale can skip to the falcon chain. There is a lot of flexibility to amortize fixed costs unlike for the typhoon.
And if you look at the number of assembly lines and barroque industrial organization for the typhoon it more than lose any advantage of a bigger production.
The rafale being a smaller and less complex aircraft to run you don’t have to think for long before acknowledging a significant cost advantage for the rafale both unit wise and operating costs.
Or if you want to follow the game of “we don’t have the exact numbers” then you can also argue that it could be cheaper than the gripen which is absurd.
Perhaps you are mixing the fact that France had to bear the development costs of the Naval variant and nuclear capability as well as the F3+ standard. But those costs are not re-billed to an export customer.
I also bet that you are comparing a tranche 2 Typhoon as against a rafale F3+ with an AESA which is like comparing apple and oranges.
The case is : which of the respective standard offered on the export market with AESA and full multirole capability is cheaper ?
By all accounts the answer is the rafale by a significant margin.
-a smaller aircraft,
-smaller and newer engines,
-a fixed smaller radar,
-less moving parts : probe, no airbreak, fixed intakes,
-Already developed with an AESA funded by the french state and already a wide field of weapon integrated.
And yes the rafale will be significantly cheaper to buy and operate and there is no mystery about it. The Typhoon being a bigger and more “complex” aircraft it will be more expensive to operate as the indian computed.
As for the unit price an aircraft costs what it weights (roughly) and on top of that any foreign customer will have to bear a big share of the cost of AESA and multirole capabilities development for the typhoon.
Even dassault’s CEO is claiming it loudly (see original article above on this page) :
“For 15 years, we’ve been saying the Rafale costs less than the Eurofighter,” Edelstenne said. “Now it’s the Indians who are saying it.”
courtesy of Olybrius from mp :
Indian Rafale: how Dassault is preparing:
Air & Cosmos , March 9The manufacturer has six to eight months to prove it can meet the requirements of the Indian authorities in matter of offsets and technology transfers. A short delay , especially as the local industry has still many gaps to fill.
There was contained joy, last January 31, when the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) has announced the selection of the Rafale to equip the Indian Air Force with 126 multimission fighters. The famous MMRCA contract. But the next day, gravity took over at St. Cloud, headquarters of Dassault Aviation. And for good reason. If the manufacturer of the Rafale and its partners Thales and Safran, want to sign a contract in good and due form, they must prove that they can transfer to the Indian industry 50% of this contract, which would amount between 12 and 15 billion dollars according to various estimations. So, 6 to 7 billion in offsets and technology transfer to find before next fall! This is a record, commensurate to the contract. Only the first 18 Rafale will be built in France. The following 108 should be built by the Indian aeronautic’s national champion, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), a state corporation. Dassault must not miss the boat. “It’s a big reference for French industry and for us, it will represent about 20 million euros in turnover by plane, “emphasizes Jean-Paul Herteman, CEO of Safran, during the presentation of the results of the group, last February 23.
The Indians landed at Dassault.
But the Indians are in a hurry. The MoD announced its intention to sign a definitive contract eight months after the annoucement around September-October. ” Since the beginning of February, Indians have sent their best staff in St. Cloud, dozens of brilliant graduates to form working groups with Dassault teams “said a source familiar with the matter. On the French manufacturer side, it is logically Eric Trappier, Dassault director for international affairs, the man of all the negotiations when it comes to export the Rafale , which took things in hand, in conjunction with the technical direction and the management of industrial affairs.
Concurrently, an ad hoc committee will coordinate and centralize the Franco-Indian work , including members like Jean-Marc Gasparini, head of the Rafale program, and representatives of Thales and Safran. On the Indian side, HAL will be the main interlocutor of Dassault.
Naturally, the idea is not to formalize all the offset volume in the smallest details. It would be an impossible mission in such a short time. In this preliminary phase, HAL and Dassault will list all the fields, module per module, where technology transfers are possible, and will establish priorities and a timetable. Then they will give everything a value [price] and sign partnerships with Indian companies. The aircraft and its 30,000 main components will be dissected to identify transferable parts, subassemblies and equipment : from elements of the fuselage to the landing gear, through pipes or embedded systems.
There is plenty to do , the French fighter aircraft contains for example 25 kilometers of cabling and 300,000 rivets! The goal, in a first step, is to define compensation directly related to the Rafale program. Indirect offsets will come later. Concurrently, Dassault will turn on its supply chain: probably not all of the 500 concerned companies, but rather the 250 to 300 most important . “We have not yet been approached by Dassault, but we expect it. This is to Dassault to conduct these first discussions,” said Francois Bertrand, president of the board of Latecoere, which manufactures the high back part of the Rafale.Engineering processes.
Similarly, the manufacturer of St. Cloud will value all the industrial operations hidden but no less strategic in manufacturing an airplane: Process engineering, CAD, referentials of methods … Finally, and this is not the smallest task to do for the working groups, they will set the price of licenses to be paid by Indian companies selected to have the right to manufacture a particular equipment. On the side of New Delhi, an actor will play an important role: The Defence Offset Facilitation Agency (DOFA). Created in 2006, this organization ,depending of the MoD, plays the role of interface between military, Indian industrialists and foreign suppliers.
[…]
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?137433-Rafale-News&p=6077665#post6077665
post 3445 :
Negotiation are underway as confirmed by Indian MinDef.