eagle1Article :
Rafale, EADS, Eurofighter; Edelstenne kicks out
CHallenges/V.Lamigeon, March 22The initial presentation lasted ten minutes.[…] Once the chore evacuated, remained to answer questions from journalists. It was the usual fare: more than a show, an execution:
Eurofighter, the Rafale’s competitor? “Operationally, it’s clear-cut. In terms of price either. If France had participated in the Eurofighter consortium with Great Britain, Italy, Germany and Spain within EADS, the aircraft would have been 60% more expensive than the Rafale. ” Critics on concessions made to India for the sale of 126 units?” Some have said that we sold at a loss, that we are subsidized by the state. I do not know the idiot who said that, or rather yes, I know him.[a columnist from Le Monde i think] I remind you that we do realize only 20% of our turnover with the French state. “
Some would have stopped here. But Edelstenne still had a few pleasantries in store. About EADS, first: “We have two leading experts: one, called Louis Gallois, who says we must launch programs with all European countries. Another one, called Tom Enders, who said that only bilateral cooperation is effective. ” A few minutes later, referring to the A400M program, in the same colourful language :” I do remember that we, we do not let debts of several billion euros due to delays not required or specifications not met. We deliver on time, within cost, in the specs.”
A journalist titillates Edelstenne on the bitter wage negotiations inside Dassault, with demonstrations? he stays undeterred : “At Dassault Aviation, the minimum wage is 2,552 euros. Only 70 people earning less than 2800 euros, and the average salary is 3674 euros. ” A pause, time to savor his effect, and Edelstenne continues:”Mélenchon proposes a minimum wage of 1700 euros, mine is 2250. Do not publish these numbers, I like Jean-Luc Melenchon, I do not want to hurt him.” [lol, (Melenchon is a far left French politician)]
[…]
The press, including the author of this blog, has not always been kind with Edelstenne, it’s an undisputable fact. Himself has largely returned the favor to the journalists, with the excesses that characterize him, it is also an established fact. Still: if Edelstenne was, as it is likely, to retire in early 2013 (he will reach the age limit next January), we will regret his consummate art of the Scud, his total lack of frills and salaams, his determination to fight for his company, his willful refusal of stonewalling, courtesies or other despairing and staid attitudes of big bosses. Edelstenne style is unique. Good luck to the successor
eagle1I don’t know the range, it flew with it but the full integration is not yet over and abandoned now unless a customer is interested.
eagle1article :
India : Army modernisation slow Navy & Air Force push ahead
Business Standard, March 16
[…]
A key reason for the IAF emerging as the biggest beneficiary of the capital budget is the expected signing of a contract this year for 126 Rafale medium multi-role fighters. Normally, 15 per cent of the overall price is paid at the time of signing; with the Rafale contract expected to be for Rs 70,000 crore, the IAF will pay some Rs 10,000 crore this year, with the balance distributed over the coming decade.
[…]
eagle1
eagle1Article :
Eric Trappier (Dassault): “India wants a signature of the Rafale contract in six months”
Les Echos, March 18
Despite BAE attacks which tries to get back the Eurofighter on track, Dassault expects to conclude the first sale of Rafale abroad this year. The decision of New Delhi has had a ripple effect on other ongoing campaigns, says the director of international of the aircraft manufacturer.
In India, the Rafale has won the tender for the purchase of 126 combat aircraft. What could stop exclusive negotiations now?
I see no reason which would prevent us from going to the end or would lead the Indians to stop whereas they made the hardest part. The procedure started in 2007. After several weeks of evaluations in extreme conditions, from the slopes of the Himalayas to the desert sands, the Air Force selected two aircraft: the Rafale and Eurofighter. Ultimately, it is the lowest bid that won in terms of unit cost of the device itself and in terms maintenance over time. Everything was conducted on the basis of criteria set in advance and have been scrupulously observed, without political involvement. This tender is exemplary.
When do you expect to conclude?
The Indians want to go fast, and are considering a conclusion in about six months. We need to finalize technical and industrial terms , and build a contract whose terms are equivalent to those of the Mirage 2000 (signed in 2000, Ed).
BAE has suggested that the Eurofighter could get back on track …
I do not believe it, and I am surprised that some people are themselves surprised that the Rafale has prevailed. In all competitions where the two planes were opposed, the Eurofighter has been eliminated in the first round, as in Korea, the Netherlands and Brazil, or it was ranked behind the Rafale, as in India. Or in Switzerland, as shown by the evaluation report of the armed forces published in the press. I add that the calculations of the UK Court of Auditors show that the Eurofighter is much more expensive. And operationally, the Rafale has proved its versatility during Operation Harmattan, unlike the Eurofighter which was conceived as a pure fighter. The indian tender has clearly appointed the best aircraft.
At what price? cheaper than to France?
The price of the Rafale in India is offered at French prices, adjusted for expenses related to the contract since it is not quite the same technical configuration, and that manufacturing will be in part locally. The competition was so tough that each side had to offer the best possible price. That said, we have not done any dumping to win. Under iso conditions, we proposed the price of the French Rafale.
[…]
An agreement with UAE is it still possible before the presidential election?In our case [Dassault], the negotiation comes to an end, but if it was already over, we would know it.
In November, Abu Dhabi called your offer uncompetitive and unrealistic. The quarrel is behind you?
There was quarrel? A quarrel is when you no longer spoken. But we never stopped talking. The words used-non-competitive and unrealistic meant that Dassault had to do better. In a negotiation, there are always ups and downs, but one result at the end. Today, we’re not there yet. That’s why we work and we remain cautious.
If case of political change in May, is there a risk to delay the negotiations for several months?
A change of government is not likely to accelerate this kind of decision. Now, the political events in France are well known. The political aspect is important with this type of contract.
The Rafale is again given winner in Brazil. Where are we up to ?
The choice of New Delhi has had a ripple effect on our other campaigns. We do not overestimate it, but we do not underestimate either, because it allows us to pass a number of messages. Following a very professional procedure, India has rejected our American, Russian, Swedish and European competitors . This is not unimportant for the countries that launched a tender. As in Brazil, where the Rafale is opposed to Boeing’s F-18 and Saab Gripen, who both were eliminated in the first round in India. That said, today, the tender in Brazil remains frozen. The ball is in the camp of the Brazilian government.
Will the cancellation of the Embraer Tucano light aircraft contract by the Pentagon play a lot in your favor? Do you see a decision this year?
We see this with a watchful eye. It shows that the U.S. knows how to protect their interests. I do not see how that would deserve us. A year ago, one said that the decision would be made early 2012. Now one talk about the middle of the year. We’re watching . Waiting a sign of the government, we continue to build our local partnerships.
Will you deposit an appeal in Switzerland which preferred Gripen?
Parliament launched an investigation. We want to be sure the procedure, which required the aircraft tested to be in production, was respected. Rafale and Eurofighter were evaluated in flight. But which version of the Gripen was? is this a paper airplane? A prototype? If this is the case then it would be contrary to how we understood the procedure. We will follow the outcome of the parliamentary inquiry. If it confirms that the procedure has been followed, we will not lay down a legal challenge against a sovereign state.
[…]
eagle1It is the swiss media and swiss poitics themselves who stated that those leaks come within the swiss military. The latest controversy about the sudden change of weighting so that the gripen could meet the minimum requirements were considered serious and detailed enough to launch an inquiry. When those leaks occurred swiss politics themselves stated that such information can only come from the swiss military.
Then when swiss media reports about the “feeling of disgust” of the pilots about such a choice and when Mauer tells that they can’t always afford the best it is clear that the gripen was not the best technically. You can also mention Fernand Carrel former swiss air force chief just a couple days before the results who stated that the pilots preferred the rafale. He reported this in the press, radio and TV.
In the end the gripen is certainly a reasonable choice for switzerland if you don’t look at the selection process for a moment. I am just saying that there are certainly plenty of reasons to chose the gripen but at the same time it was not the favored option on a strictly technical standpoint.
eagle1Some facts need to be put straight as some wants to self convince themselves with false argument and turn a blind eye at several aspect of the evaluation.
The test pilots who tested the 3 aircrafts in competition in switzerland clearly preferred the rafale and were pretty disappointed that other factors lead toward opting for the least performant aircrafts. As a consequence they leaked part of the evaluation to the press.
The gripen indeed latter met the minimum requirements which led to a controversy and an inquiry but it was still the worst performer on a purely technical standpoint as Mauer stated himself that you “can’t always afford the best”.
Now if the gripen choice does not work chances is that switzerland will end up with nothing. So sure the military have to endorse this choice especially as other parts of the swiss army will have more money.
But trying to dissimulate the fact that the test pilots did not prefer the rafale is simply wrong. Just that other factors like price and the fact that switzerland is not under immediate threat to say the least played in favor of the gripen.
eagle1As for the gripen in switzerland even if it is clearly the worst performer anyone can understand that it is “enough” for switzerland and it comes at a very competitive price.
Some swiss test pilots were disappointed that they could not get the best aircraft but politicians made a “reasonable” choice in the end.
Now countries with top performances requirement usually turn down the gripen. Just to say that the gripen is not positioned on the same segment of the market.
eagle1Eagle made some stupid and unsubstantiated points about Typhoon CFTs. I corrected them. Had he not brought Typhoon into the thread I would not have done.
You mean you need to be corrected. Who can reasonably believe that a typhoon with two cruise missiles and a single 1000L drop tank is an optimal deep strike platform ? If ever a SAM threat pop-up and you need to re-route to avoid the threat but you lack the fuel you are not going to be in a good situation.
More external fuel is needed as it gives you much better operational flexibility. 1000L is not enough to turn the Typhoon in a practical striker against hardened targets.
As for the CFTs there are no clues that they are ready to go with just minimum development…quite the reverse indeed. As a consequence the typhoon is still far to be turned in credible multirole aircraft.
eagle1I quite agree with you Vnomad. Radar Range is not something to discount. In the case of the rafale it could have been better to have a bigger radar but one has to consider the full picture of “multi-sensor fusion” to be more relevant.
Despite having a more powerful radar with the captor M the typhoon was deemed inferior by the swiss in detection, acquisition & situation awareness against the rafale with a rbe2 PESA radar.
I have one of my parents old friend which is leading a whole business unit at Thales and works closely with several programs including the rafale. He his a good friend of pierre Yves Chatiel by the way the latter having left recently Thales for Bull. One thing he kept repeating is that the strength of the rafale compared to the typhoon is that its weapon system is more “homogeneous and integrated” saying that when you look at the typhoon in comparison you could easily see that was a “multinational program” having also the experience of working for the A400M project.
When comparing this piece of information with others like the swiss eval or what rafale pilots kept repeating I tend to think that while the radar might offer less raw power the overall SA is still in favour of the rafale.
eagle1Dassault never said that the rbe2 was fatally flawed, it is just a mere invention. Swiss evaluation praised the rbe2 PESA not typhoon radar nor the gripen one to put facts straight : rbe2 pesa > captor m > ps 05
eagle1Some excerpts of a new rafale book about the Lybian campain courtesy of Olybrius (as always) from MP :
March 19.
11:00 am. 4 first Rafale take off from Saint-Dizier in air to air configuration with 3 tanks and 6 Mica. Their mission was air superiority. No Lybian fighters took off but the patrol had to play hide and seek with SA-8 for 3 hours.
11:10 am. 2 other Rafale take off equipped with Reco-NG for reconnaissance mission over Syrte and Benghazi. They stayed two hours over Lybia.
The 3rd patrol with 2 “strike” Rafale and 2 Mirage 2000D took off at 2:40 p.m. They will be first to open fire. Mirage 2000D fired their GBU 12 on 4 tanks in the sand while Rafale destroyed a convoy on the road to Benghazi with their AASM.
The Rafale is a very comfortable airplane for pilots during long missions of 8 hours or more (maximum flight time for a Rafale is 10 hours because of oil level)
Most Scalp-EG were fired by “1/91 Gascogne” Rafale B (2 Scalp by aircraft) coming from Saint Dizier. For the Navy , Scalp-EG were fired by Rafale M24 and M26
The BDA (Battle Damage Assessment , damage assessment after opening fire) is possible with the “high resolution radar” mode of the RBE2
In flight, a Reco-NG pod can transmit images using hertzian data link with a range up to 200 km depending on altitude. Then the commander of the TF 473 sent the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle near the Lybian coast to allow Rafale patrols (from Airforce or Navy) to transmit images in real time during their mission. So, Rafale was used in some missions as a piloted drone.
In terms of employment of new capabilities in the conflict, [some?] Rafale deployed over Lybia used the new DDM-NG that extends the protective bubble of the Rafale
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?137433-Rafale-News/page231
So a rafale is limited to 10H flights due to oil limitation.
The CFTs for rafale would be interesting less for range but rather to free two heavy weapon station under the wings instead of big drop tanks.
One could imagine exotic config like 12 AAMS with 4 triple racks hard point.
eagle1mrmalaya,
The F1 was an interim standard to replace obsolete F8 Crusaders. It was far from being mature and optimal. The leap brought by the F2 standard was significant.
As for the CFTs for the typhoon I don’t know all the details but one could make a reasonnable assumption by saying that it is not as easy as it would seem.
Just that without them a typhoon with 2 cruise missiles will only be able to fly with a single small drop tank which makes this config simply almost useless operationnaly for deep strike missions.
Also with 2 GBU-24 and a LDP there is bo room left for external fuel.
My point is that without the CFT investment a whole range of missions are realisticaly excluded form the typhoon scope. The F35 and Tornado doing a good job in those tasks the case for turning the typhoon in a multirole aircraft is weak.
I just suspect that the CFT development being a difficult one member nations are reluctant fielding other capabilities before and as other options exists (F35, tornado) the necessary investment for export markets is not made.
CFT for the rafale is another matter. The close coupled canard config might make them easier to integrate but the requirement is a bit superfluous when you can already carry 6000L of external fuel.
eagle1Libya may get ex-UAE Mirage 2000s
DefenceWeb, March 15Libya may procure the United Arab Emirates’ 68 Mirage 2000 fighters once the UAE replaces them with Rafales.
Brigadier General Abdel-Moneim said Ayad, Director of Public Relations at Libya’s Interior Ministry, was quoted by the Middle East News Agency (MENA) as saying that the UAE has offered to transfer to Libya its 68 Dassault Mirage 2000s.
The UAE is considering replacing its Mirage 2000s with Rafales. Air & Cosmos magazine recently reported that all the technical and financial terms of the Rafale sale have been settled and that only a state to state defence agreement is necessary for the deal to go ahead.
In November last year Dassault hit a major stumbling block in the UAE sale for around 60 Rafales, as at the last minute crown prince Sheikh Mohammed bin Zayed, deputy supreme commander of the UAE’s armed forces called the deal’s terms “uncompetitive and unworkable”.
However, the French newspaper La Tribune last month reported that French President Nicolas Sarkozy would travel to the UAE in March or early April to finalise the Rafale contract, which has been years in the making.
Furthermore, reports suggest that Qatar is trying to sell its Mirage 2000s to Libya – last month it was reported that Qatar was attempting to sell all 12 to the Libyan air force.
According to Tactical Report, crown Prince of Qatar Sheikh Tamim Bin Hamad Al Thani is said to have talked with Chief of Staff of the Libyan Armed Forces Major-General Yusef Al-Manqoush during their meeting on Monday in Doha, about plans to sell Qatar’s Mirage 2000-5 fighters to Libya.
Last year Qatar, a close ally of France, said it wanted to replace its Mirage fleet this year, by buying around 24 to 36 new fighters.
Meanwhile, at the beginning of this month it was reported that France will modernise a dozen of Libya’s surviving Dassault Mirage F1 fighters and provide training to Libyan pilots.
Libya bought 38 F1s in the late 1970s, but the arms embargo imposed against Libya by the United Nations (1992-2003) and United States, particularly after the 1988 Lockerbie bombing, led to spares shortages, with many of the aircraft being grounded as a result. On November 8, 2006, Libya signed a contract with Astrac (a joint venture between Thales and Safran) for the refurbishment of 12 F1s. The 140 million euro contract was expected to take four years to complete.
France is retiring its F1 fleet and will withdraw its last aircraft in 2014. It has contemplated selling some of these aircraft to Libya.
eagle1Big news for the UAE prospect. Apparently the topic is very hot and a signature would be still possible before the french presidential election although not certain.
Thales is already investing in some of its production facilities like in Ellancourt to be able to meet the UAE standard notably for spectra EW suite on time. upgrade of spectra production facilities will beging just nex month.
Koweit and Quatar are interested and are awaiting UAE decision say french Mindef who wish that the signature would be soon so that these two countries could decide for the rafale option.
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