eagle1Typhoon offer as reported in swiss media was around 5 Billion Euros, 3 (or 4?) billion for the gripen and the rafale was in between.
As far as France is concerned there is a wide consensus that the rafale is significantly cheaper than the typhoon to procure. The figure from Specialized journalist that looked into the numbers and often brought by Dassault’s CEO is that it would have cost the french tax payer 50% more if we went for the typhoon. This view is widely accepted in France.
http://www.lefigaro.fr/societes/2011/12/11/04015-20111211ARTFIG00186-rafale-pas-de-cadeau-fait-par-l-etat-a-dassault-aviation.php
http://www.marianne2.fr/blogsecretdefense/Le-Rafale-trop-cher-Bienvenue-au-cafe-du-commerce-_a452.html
extract from Dassault’s CEO interview which might interest you :
I first noted that 70% of the cost of a Rafale from our partners and all our subcontractors. That our prices are validated by the State, which guarantees that there is no Over margin in our offers. Finally, for export, we must compare the Rafale to what is comparable. If you allow me a metaphor that I draw from my experience in manufacturing, manufacturers have adopted, in production, machine tool spindles instead of five machines in one or two pins to optimize their supply chains and reduce costs. The Rafale, thanks to its versatility, can replace several different aircraft types, which helps reduce the amount of aircraft needed to perform the tasks that fall within the combat aviation. It is therefore not possible to compare one to one.
So a significant part of the price is not mastered by Dassault…Well now they own a big share of Thales but the price has not suddenly goes up.
And the price is closely monitored by the french state which seems to be a common sense measure.
eagle1It seems there is already an answer :
no going back on Dassault deal: Antony
Business Line, Feb 17New Delhi, Feb 17: India has virtually ruled out a rethink on its decision in the multi-billion dollar combat aircraft deal saying it has already started negotiating the contract with French firm Dassault Aviation in this regard.
[…]
“Already the Contract Negotiations Committee (CNC) has started for the procurement of Rafale,” Defence Minister, Mr A.K. Antony, said here.
The Minister was asked to comment on the British Prime Minister Mr David Cameron’s statement that he would ask India to rethink its decision on the deal and buy the Eurofighter Typhoon.
The CNC is formed by the Ministry to negotiate the final price of the equipment offered by the vendors.Mr Antony warned the officials and vendors involved in the process against indulging in any wrongdoing saying “everybody should be careful…. Nobody can corrupt India system. We will not tolerate this.”
He said the contract negotiations take place for over six months and after that the deal will have to pass through eight stages.“It will have to pass through scrutiny in eight stages.
After CNC, it will come to Defence Ministry. In Ministry also, there will be minimum four stages of scrutiny by Defence Finance. Then it will go to independent monitors appointed by the CVC and then go to the National Security Council Secretariat and Finance Ministry,” Mr Antony said.
eagle1As to costs, it’s clear that Typhoon is cheaper, the only point at issue is by how much. It’s you who is “pissing against the gale” on this one.
It is clear that the rafale is cheaper and by a good margin. No need to argue about that. Look at rafale offer in India and switzerland. It was significantly cheaper. It is also cheaper to run as indian stated themselves.
When you have to bill your upgrade costs to the customer because your own government is unwilling to invest it does not take long to understand a big part of the price difference.
Add commonality with the upgraded mirage 2000 fleet and the physical advantage of being a smaller and a less maintenance intensive by design (less moving part & hydraulic systems) and here you are !
eagle1lol good one Kovy indeed…That’s the main reproach we can have against JL : the double standard language and the lack of honesty in pretending to be neutral… Not the fact that he has a preference for the typhoon like everyone has its own preference but the lack of transparency.
eagle1About La tribune article as far as I understand it is a french industry source certainly from Dassault. When they released the commercial offer they could see the competitor proposed price.
PS : yes very probably Dassault and probably the same source that alerted La tribune on the status of the UAE negotiation.
eagle1To be frank I also gave up following costs through governments release. If you cannot look into the details there are more chances than not that you are going to compare apple and oranges.
Also one thing that JL forgot is that the current price is for a given production rate. With a leaner production process the rafale might enjoy more economies of scale if the productions goes up. That means along other factor that I listed in my above post that there are so many factors that you can’t honestly come with a “figure” deus ex machina like JL did.
It is completely unscientific and inaccurate. In this case you are better with your common sense rather than making dubious accountant beginner comparison.
Obviously he wants to look knowledgeable with figure quoted in government report and some basic calculation but the truth is that it is a smoke screen with no real academic value. It might fool the simple minded but it actually holds no credibility.
eagle1There is not a single doubt in my mind that Jackonicko is Jon Lake and I bet this is the case of many one here. This certainty is already several years old.
That being said I respect him even though I often argue with him. The only thing that I don’t like is that he pretends to be neutral when he has an agenda which is by no means something reprehensible but you have to endorse “transparently” who you support to be fair.
btw nice location near an RAF airfield I can spot a merlin on the tarmac:)
eagle1Loke,
My whole point is that there is no reliable and comparable datas to compare each other. This is true for acquisition costs but also running costs. Those who pretend otherwise like Jackonicko have a partisan approach.
As sensible persons we can only use a bit of common sense to see a “trend”.
You don’t need to be a rocket scientist to understand that the gripen is cheaper to buy and operate than both the rafale and typhoon.
For the same reason what is so hard to understand about the bellow points ?? :
Rafale :
-It is a smaller aircraft with smaller and newer engines meaning less fuel consumption and less repairs and cheaper at acquisition.
-It has a fixed radar, a fixed probe, fixed intake and no dorsal break (less hydraulic, less complexity, less maintenance)
-It shares commonality with the mirage 2000 fleet (avionics and weapons)
-Its AESA radar, OSFT-IT, M88-4E and DDM-NG were funded by the french government when Typhoon Gmbh has to bill the upgrades to the indian.
-Indians paid a high price for the mirage 2000 upgrade which allowed Dassault to have more margin for the rafale price.
Also why is hard to accept for Jackonicko that the indian Typhoon configuration is significantly different from the one from Europe currently ?
The price gap in india is so unsurprising…Really Jackonicko/JL is having a hard time twisting things to find yet another excuse for one of its article.
eagle1Really? Where have Eurofighter said this? Thus far I’ve seen endless unproven claims from the Frenc camp asserting that this is the case! Proof? Probably in the pudding.
The original article was La Tribune quoting industry sources. I would tend to believe them as it is a first tier business newspaper very popular for decision maker. They usually have good informations and often bring a few scoop. The last one was about the UAE deal back on negotiation and it was confirmed latter by the UAE press as well.
eagle1What evidences ? You don’t know what those figures encompass exactly and how costs are recorded. You can only make speculations when you probably compare apple and oranges.
Without the full report you will only make a partisan comparison. Your method is completely unscientific and inaccurate. Those figures are nice but it is not proven they are comparable.
You say that rafale price is inflated in france when it is the only major program with the leclerc MBT that is praised to have respected the budget with only a 4% increase since the beginning of the program till the F3 standard. There is simply no controversy about rafale price is france and it is widely acknowledge that it is a significantly cheaper choice than the typhoon. Not to mention a superior operational value due to its versatility.
You don’t need to be a rocket scientist to understand why the rafale was significantly cheaper in India :
-It is a smaller aircraft with smaller and newer engines.
-It has a fixed radar, a fixed probe, fixed intake and no dorsal break
-It shares commonality with the mirage 2000 fleet (avionics and weapons)
-Its AESA radar, OSFT-IT, M88-4E and DDM-NG were funded by the french government when Typhoon Gmbh has to bill the upgrades to the indian.
It is not hard to understand that the Indian version of the Typhoon will have sky rocketing costs compared to the rafale. No need to dump the price especially when you are cheaper from the beginning. You really are looking to twist things when a bit of common sense is enough.
eagle1The point is that Rafale is more expensive than Typhoon, and not, as we’d always been led to believe, cheaper.
The rafale is cheaper. It is often an argument brought by french defense journalists to justify the rafale choice. Seriously this is a general consensus in the french specialized press.
94 million euros unit price here from JDM. And it is not even the fly away price. As I said when I asked directly to Jean Paul Latrige in 2007 (International support manager now retired) From Dassault aviation the fly away price was around 55-60 Meuros. I expect the current figure to be a bit higher now with the F3+ standard.
One thing to take into account is that rafale lattest standard was fully funded by the french government which is obviously not the case for the Typhoon offered in India. So dassault does not need to bill the R&D while Typhoon Gmbh has to.
eagle1What counts is the fly away price and it is certainly cheaper than the typhoon by a good margin.
As far as the cost “all inclusive” is concerned the higher the cost the better it is in a way. It simply reflects the will of a country to invest in its own jet-fighter. I don’t mind seeing that figure raise if they can go to the next standard with full GaN AESA technology for instance.
But for exports the fly away price and running costs rules and here the rafale has a very clear lead over the typhoon.
And as it was explained we are talking of a rafale with AESA, full multirole capability and a naval variant not to mention a nuclear capability versus an AtA fighter with “austere”/primitive AtG capabilities…
eagle1Don’t forget huge price tag on Mirage-2000 upgrade.
And the mica deal was not cheap either…I read at least one report where it was mentioned that it was to ensure a Dassault win. In this case it means the IAF really wanted the rafale over the typhoon.
So we have rafales that :
-will be mostly manufactured in India
-that perhaps beneficiated from previous indian deals
How is it possible to compare with french price ? Unless you have a real thorough study on cost comparison the debate will remain superficial and subject to speculation. That’s why Jackoniko’s/Jon Lake will to inquire in rafale and typhoon price will remain at the stage of partisan work and that is also why the canard enchainé attempt to make a controversy will fail.
eagle1article :
India: Rafale Decision Final
AIN online, Feb 16India’s Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne confirmed to AIN here at the Singapore Airshow that the country’s resolve to select the lowest bidder for the contract for 126 medium multirole combat aircraft remains in place. The contract negotiation committee (CNC) opened Dassault Aviation’s bid proposing its Rafale on February 13 and identified the French OEM as the lowest bidder. The decision to involve another manufacturer is “procedurally untenable,” said Browne. “We have a procedure as per the defense procurement policy that stipulates the contract goes to the lowest bidder.”The CNC, which gets into action once the lowest bidder has been identified, is scheduled to start price negotiations with Dassault from March 5. Discussions will be held on electronics, radar, transfer of technology and offsets.
Asked if he was satisfied with the Rafale selection, Browne said it was, “Brilliant! We got it at the best cost possible. The decision was based on performance and Rafale passed all qualifications.”However, Browne said the requirement for the fighters was “as of yesterday,” meaning that, in reality, he expects the process to be completed by the end of the year. The air force plans to start pilot training soon, he added.
Browne also said Brazil has asked India to share its acquisition process, including evaluation and lifecycle costs. Coincidentally, India’s state minister, Pallam Raju, is visiting Brazil at the end of March to view the flight of the second, fully modified aircraft for the indigenously developed Indian airborne warning and control system aircraft, the EMB-145, at Embraer’s facilities at São José dos Campos in Brazil.
eagle1I don’t want to look polemic but your figures are completely wrong Jackoniko. The rafale is nowhere close to 101m€ flyaway. 60M€ would be more realistic. Your figure must encompass other things.
As for the article I bet you that it will make pschiiiiit…In the sense that it will not ignite any controversy. It is far too inacurate (comparing apple and oranges) and undocumented to create any public outcry.
You can find dozens of article that want to be controversial but only a handfull manage to make an “affair”. I fear that you will be disappointed.
The right ingredients are lacking obviously to make a cake of this inacurate report.
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