eagle1Air&cosmos talked about the sniper issue with the french air force just last friday so it is very fresh news : it should be (if ever it materializes) a temporary solution waiting for the damocles XF or to ease an export.
The issue is certainly not the laser which is one of the most powerful out there (damocles is a heavy pod). The issue is the lack of TV channel and lower resolution compared to sniper and lightening 3 pod. This make ID of small target difficult.
eagle1Having talk specifically about the Damocles with several rafale pilots the issue is it lacks a high resolution TV channel to positively ID targets in urban warfare or in Afghanistan type of scenarios. It has only an IR channel which doesn’t offer the same kind of contrast than TV channel although it can be used at night.
That’s what the damocles XF is all about : developing a TV channel to allow ID of individual in a complex environment. Something the sniper or lightening 3 are already able to do.
Current Damocles design philosophy is to offer a very good long range powerful laser to stay out of reach from medium/short range SAM. Damocles requirement emerged after the Kosovo war. With the AASM now in service this capability is less relevant and the focus is more on ID specific targets rather than sheer laser range.
So if the damocles is indeed lacking in terms of ID capability in a complex environment (urban, astan) it still offers a very good long range laser capability useful to treat or identify bigger targets. This shortfall is well identified and being adressed with the “XF” variant
In certain situation the Damocles can even be more performant if the target is easy to identify and you want to remain as far as possible. But if you want to monitor a group a suspect individuals (rebels, taliban) then it is clearly inferior.
eagle195% was for switzerland but that’s obviously not 95% of the minimum requirement as the article you are referring to was very keen to the rafale.
eagle1simply because there is a confusion between “operational” and “technical” and some want to play on words to make believe that the gripen succeeded the operational evaluation which is not the case.
eagle1In switzerland only the rafale and typhoon met the minimum requirement in the operational evaluation and only the rafale in each category of tests.
But if you take other factor like costs, maintenance etc then the gripen was considered good enough. So if technical encompass everything yes it met the minimum requirement.
The Federal Council will soon decide which fighter will replace the obsolete Tiger F-5. Behind the scenes one fights hard until the very end. It is rumored the Swedish Gripen is failing.
[…]“The quality of the generated data was scarce enough. The simultaneous control of multiple ground targets was not possible. The Gripen was assessed for the areas of air-air and air-ground as unsatisfactory. “The second report produced in November 2009 based on simulated tests with Saab, earned a total of 98 changes, while it was 18 for the French provider Dassault (Rafale) and 25 for the European Consortium EADS. Once again, the Gripen landed to third place.
The two above-mentioned reports were signed by Lieutenant General Markus Gygax. Ten days ago, the air force chief said ” i said to the Federal Council that the 3 aircrafts fulfill our requirements”. Now Gygax sees itself confronted with the reproach that he did not represent correctly the circumstances concerning efficiency of the tested types of aircraft.
According to the Air Force spokesman Jürg Nussbaum , the mentioned statements of commander Gygax were not related to the mentioned reports. “The air force commander does not correct itself” It was true that the Gripen did not reach the operational level benchmarked by the F/A-18 fighter; Rafale and Eurofighter fighter would have done better here. In other areas – maintenance, logistics, cooperation – see a “ranking”, however, different. Moreover, it was important to assess the overall picture. He still maintain the minimum requirements were met by all three fighter jets, says Nussbaum. He also points out that it is classified confidential documents which are circulating.
[…]
Alarmed, however, was the SVP National Schaffhauser Thomas Hurter. He chaired the parliamentary subcommittee that oversees the project about Fighter Aircraft. The Panel had previously no access to the confidential reports, which evaluated the operational capabilities of the three fighter jets. The subcommittee had all three aircraft have been described as fit.
“If the Federal council select a new fighter plane, which is performance-related even behind the F/A-18, the parliament would hardly appreciate it” points Hurter.[…]The controversial arms deal is for the first time Wednesday on the agenda of the Federal Council. the selection of the aircraft will be made not only because of technological performance. The overall package with aspects such as offsets, training co-operation, and maintenance costs, development opportunities are taken into account. Not insignificant is also the question of cost: The Gripen is the “cheapest” plane.
eagle1nd those already in service that meant that it attacked a bigger proportion of dynamic targets in Libya than Rafale did?
master of spinning. there is nothing special engaging a pick up with a LGB. That’s a basic capability that exists for decades. And without sources you are not credible.
Now, entering the Lybian airspace first, performing SEAD, attacking multiple targets in one pass, destroying a tank from 55Km, launching cruise missiles, performing recce mission from one of the most modern pod in the world, destroying an enemy aircraft while landing is real added value. The typhoon did not came anywhere close that performance. It is in fact a step back from the performance of the tornado (payload,range,Atg versatility). To be effective it was required to be pair with a tornado despite all the excuses/justifications.
eagle1The Rafale and Typhoon will not reach their final Air to ground capability until they are retiring in about 30-40 years.
The Typhoon is 2 to 3 years behind the Rafale in AtoG, so its not a significant gap, at least not one strong enough for the recent spate of competitions.
A fighter jet never reach his final form it is always evolving so is bogus.
The point is that the rafale can be task to a much greater array of missions and is thus much more versatile. Typhoon has been designed around a mission that it will probably never perform in its entire career. Not that BVR is not important but when you invest billions to get an aircraft that is clearly a step back to the tornado in real conflicts (lybia, astan) I would not feel good.
And the gap is certainly much more than 2 or 3 years if ever the gap will be resolved on day which is debatable.
eagle1SU 27 and F22 are very big fighters and although agile for their size they need TVC to try to catch up with smaller more compact airframes.
Besides I don’t think that a SU 27 with TVC is that maneuverable : it will wash up all its energy and will become a sitting duck if don’t manage its trick. an HMS is much more cost effective/efficient than going for TVC with all the associated trouble (maintenance, costs, risk of failure…). Some pilots have talked about the su-30mki (USAF, french air force and RAF?) and it is not the killing machine it was supposed to be in a dogfight as many thought.
Different for the F22 as it was the only aircraft able to match the rafale capability in a dogfight (ATLC).
eagle1@eagle
You still can make a competition and skip the technical evaluation part so Hurter point of view is valid. You can base your ranking only on price&offsets&Tot&politics if you want.
Just look in India after the technical evaluation is over with the rafale and typhoon selected it restarts at “zero” for both of them and the only criteria to chose the winner will be price&offset&ToT&politic.
So paying 8 million Franc for a technical evaluation that was supposed to weight 60% of the decision was unnecessary. Hence Hurter was furious and that is not bias.
eagle1cute picture :
eagle1Situation of the austrain case last september :
Allegations of corruption concerning the contract specify Eurofighter in Austria
September 4, 2011 – 10:45 In September 2009, Austria took delivery of its fifteenth and final copy of the Eurofighter Typhoon, commissioned in 2003 to replace its Saab J-37 Draken, commissioned in the 1960s.
Initially, the Austrian Air Force should have received the F/A-18 Hornet, the U.S. plane had arrived in the lead after a first evaluation. But the order was never placed on political and funding problems.
A second choice was then focused on the JAS-39 Gripen, from Swedish Saab. But it is ultimately the Eurofighter Typhoon, the consortium of the same name, which included EADS, BAE Systems and Finmeccanica, who won the bet, with a contract for the delivery of 18 aircraft and personnel training, the logistical support and weapons, all for 1.95 billion euros. The order will be subsequently reduced by 3 planes to save about 400 million euros.
But suspicions of corruption surrounding the contract. Thus, General Erich Wolf, in charge of the case was dismissed because a family member had received money from the hand of a lobbyist appointed by the Eurofighter consortium. Prosecutors in Vienna no further action in March 2011, the complaint for corruption against the officer.
The case was a new twist in June, with the arrest of Gianfranco Lande, an Italian businessman. The latter then told the court that a front company, Vector Aerospace, created by EADS Germany paid 84.5 million euros between 2004 and 2009 the company Euro Business Developement, owned by Walter and Alfred Plattner Schön, two Austrian arms dealers whose respective homes have been searched by the public prosecutor in Vienna. The two men would then have supported the system of retro-commissions on the Eurofighter contract.
There is also the name of the former Austrian finance minister Karl-Heinz Grasser Yet favor of a solution through the purchase of American F-16, he put his weight behind to support the Eurofighter. Hence the suspicion against him, especially since he has maintained a relationship with a former member of his party (the FPÖ), which would have received bribes and wine through its advertising business.
The Austrian magazine Format, which reversed the case, quoted a document from the court that an attorney indicates that a “criminal organization was established in the consortium EADS to extract money (…) through false contracts for operations of corruption. “
Austrian justice, which has tapped three protagonists of the case between June and July, also states that this system was “designed to corrupt businesses and officials.” In total, 100 million euros that would have served well for bribes to middlemen to win the contract.
Since the beginning of the case, which is already the subject of a parliamentary inquiry, the Eurofighter consortium has always defended by claiming not to have violated the law …
eagle1@EEE Lightning & mrmalaya
This thread is about gripen choice by Switzerland so it is perectly valid to post all the related news positive or negative.
Some are such in a defensive posture that they are always assuming the evil from the other camp. Most if not all rafale fan here acknowledge that the gripen will be enough for switzerland and that this decision makes sense in their context even if they did not take into account the swiss air force choice.
Now if there are some debates about this choice in switzerland why would it be off topic according to you ?
I believe that some are over-reacting and assuming too much things. As far as I am concerned I accept and understand Switzerland choice. But that will not prevent me from reporting the bad news for the gripen. Some have to do it. It the confrontation of all the different opinions which make a forum interesting.
eagle1thanks
the same for you:)
eagle1mrmalaya,
The case of corruption in Austria is a reality, not a mirage. So it is perfectly valid to talk about it. That’s not like if I assumed something or making an interpretation. Here we are talking about “jail sentences” that were actualy issued against the person who accepted monay from EADS. If we are to believe some this kind of business is always “pure” when we all knwo is not the case. Sometimes some are caught accepting things they should have turned down. The fact that J. did not even mention it is quite a partial and bias interpretation of this deal which undemines its credibility just like for Japan.
eagle1Japan issued an RFP to Eurofighter, but not to Dassault.
but :
Dassault Aviation chairman and CEO Charles Edelstenne is not shy about saying the he did not want to play the role of a stalking horse. “Our belief is that the Japanese have issued the RFP only to have some rabbit for the Americans to chase.” But that’s not a role he wants to be in. “We are not ready to spend millions [on a campaign] only to be used as a rabbit for the Americans.”
The guy was caught red hand of spinning…And of course he made no mention of the corruption scandal that affected the austrian deal. This is a quite bias vision of the reality.
As far as technical evaluation are concerned :
Rafale won korea, Singapore, dutch (2nd behind the gripen), brazil and switzerland.
Korea : The result was disclosed to local press. rafale was ahead the F15 and the typhoon last.
Singapore : Typhoon was eliminated in the first round and Dassault’s and french airforce officials declared to have beaten the typhoon and F15 in the technical evaluation. It was never disclaimed.
Dutch evalaution : This comparative evaluation was done on more than 700 criteria in close cooperation with the RNLAF. The rafale was ahead of the typhoon.
Typhoon in austria : corruption
http://www.kleinezeitung.at/nachrichten/wirtschaft/2822182/lauschangriff-gegen-eurofighter-lobbyisten.story
http://www.oe24.at/oesterreich/politik/Eurofighter-84-Mio-Schmiergeld-an-Politiker/39159368
http://www.lep.co.uk/news/lep-business/austrian_scandal_threatens_typhoon_deal_1_126148
Typhoon in SA : no competition just a state to state deal.
In Brazil Typhoon did not even make the first cut…While the gripen NG a so called “paper plane” did
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