eagle1Frankly these kinds of figure are often quite inaccurate if ever they exists.
eagle1indeed
For me it is quite clear that Uli Mauer will push for the gripen in the next days. Those leaks on the tech eval targeting the gripen is a good indicator that the swiss airforce is unhappy with the choice of the politics/industrialists.
It will be interesting to see if those leaks will have an impact on the council vote etc…
I believe the general opinion and many politics will feel that the gripen is sufficient for swiss needs.
The airforce pilots always want max performance but they don’t have the political power so….
edit : on the swiss gripen upgrade I said no engine and airframe change but that’s just an assumption that I made. Details are of course not revealed. Ruag could well proceed to the same type of work SAAB did to manufacture its NG “demo”.
eagle1According to Olybrius sources on mp.net (Le Temps swiss newspaper). The latest SAAB proposal is that swiss will buy gripen C/D and Ruag will then upgrade them to a standard close to the NG (airframe and engine don’t change). This is done at very competitive price and swiss industry can participate directly.
So it is not a true gripen NG, just a gripen C/D with NG avionics.
Now as regards the F18 comparison I believe it is a lot about kinematic performance (acceleration, loiter time etc) as they want to know how many aircrafts are required to fulfill the job and how effectively. I can only speculate as the only thing we have is the mark given for both gripen versions (first and second proposal) on air defense : 4.2 and then 5.3 below the magic “6” minimum requirement mark which represent F18 like performances. It is said that only the rafale scored above “6” in all categories of tests (other way to rephrase the fact that only the rafale scored better than minimum requirements in each category).
to illustrate this point here is one of the scenario of air defense :
Yesterday saw the official media day for the Eurofighter Typhoon. Most of the articles are in German or French so I will give a short summery of the events.
Armasuisse project leader Jürg Weber gave details for the evaluation criteria for the first time yesterday. The factor operational performance will be weighted 60 %, the in-service aspects 15 % and the industrial cooperation package 25 %.
Those 60% for the operational performance are divided into 50% A2A capabilities, 20% A2G, 20 % RECCE and 10 % growth potential.
All participants had to go through the same evaluation:
Eleven flights were conducted by the Swiss Air Force to assess operational capabilities, while 13 flights were done by armasuisse to evaluate technical issues. Two flights were done for noise measurements.
One of the Air Force test included a intercept mission at M1.5+, a Swizz F18 flew at high level with M1.5 and the participants had to climb to the same height and intercept the F-18 as early as possible.
For now it seems that the number of jets in question is down to 22 aircraft plus equipment.
Switzerland will ask for a second refined bid early next year and as a second request, they will give a budget and leave it to industry to suggest the optimal package.
eagle1“I expect that the new fighter is better than the F/A-18 ‘
Basler Zeitung, Nov 29
Pilot and SVP National Council Thomas Hurter says in an interview why the federal government should choose a fighter jet, which is better than existing aircraft.
[…]
Is that not a little bit late? Maurer has announced clearly that he brings the decision already tomorrow to the Federal Council.That is not a problem. The Federal council must justify either way its decision and put the facts on the table. If it selects the airplane with the worst performance profile, then the government must explain, why it decided in such a way. Then the Federal Council must say for example that it selects the aircraft because of the price. Or because of the training possibilities abroad. Finally the decision is a package decision. If the Federal council should select a type, which is worse than the F/A-18, then I am convinced that the parliament will not discuss the credits [?]
[…]
Well most likely the politics will push for the cheapest option the gripen so the airforce and some other try to put pressure on the decision maker to cast a doubt. That’s probably the reason why we had all those leaks about the technical evaluation.
Olybrius on mp.net reported from swiss newspaper “Le Temps” that Saab made a lot of lobbying toward Uli Mauer recently.
eagle1so true…!:D
there is something with the french…be it on the waaf or strategypage (or elsewhere) it is an obsession ! For some it is their only reason to talk…I think there is indeed some love and hate.
Originally Posted by ppp
@eagle1
But in all fairness, he is a FRENCH pilot.
That one was magic …
eagle1indeed nor the gripen C/D nor the gripen NG met the minimum requirements. That being said it still have a very good chance in switzerland due to price and cooperation.
military clearly wants the rafale and politics and some industrialist the gripen. (cheaper, more business, and issues with sarkozy)
Now one condition to be sold is that the aircraft must be in service with the selling country. I don’t know to what extent it can collide with gripen chences to be sold in switzerland.
eagle1As far as I know french (or any other nationalities) is not equal to liar and making the promotion is different than lying (except for typhoon press release perhaps:D). Each test pilots in this video (german, french or swedish) promoted their aircraft : typhoon : big radar, big engines ; rafale : advanced AESA radar ; gripen cheap to operate…etc
Then I don’t contest that the captor AESA will have better range than the rbe2 AESA. Just that rafale aesa peformance is already very honorable knowing the already well vaunted captor M in terms of range.
eagle1@austere I can’t view the video right now (I viewed it yeserday) but it is when the french test pilot speaks about rafale radar at the very beginning of the rafale sequence (he is standing by the plane and touching the radar while speaking) from memory. I’ll give you the exact time this evening if someone does not do it before me.
eagle1Maurer will provide information about jet procurement
Basler Zeitung, Nov 29
SVP National Thomas Hurter wants to know as quickly as possible, whether the Parliament has been informed truthfully.
The reporting in this newspaper of two confidential evaluation reports about the federal purchase of new fighter aircraft has consequences at the political level.
The Schaffhausen’s SVP National Councellor Thomas Hurter requires a special delivery letter from Defence Minister Ueli Maurer tonight to provide information about the veracity of the article “fighter jet Gripen with unsatisfactory grades” [post 2659] from last Saturday.
Hurter was president of the competent Commission of the National Council, which dealt with the correctness of the fighter selection process.
Upon request, Hurter said, his Commission had always stressed that all three eligible jets met the minimum requirements.One imagines that now the question is whether this information had been correct.The two relevant test reports, “SAF/OT&E Evaluation Report … 2009” and “OT&E Evaluation Report NFA Flight Test 2008” are signed by Air Force Chief Markus Gygax. The reports include in particular for the Gripen fighter aircraft from the Swedish Saab, services that do not meet the minimum requirements specified. In several comparisons, which compare the evaluation results from 2008 for all three aircraft to those of 2009, the Gripen is under a power line of six points.[…]
Improvements considered
For example in the test area “air police” , the Gripen has scores of 4.2 (Report 2008) and 5.33 (Report 2009) under the power line of at least 6 points required. The two competitors Rafale and Eurofighter are – sometimes significantly – above the score of 6 , same results in test areas such as “air defense” and “air combat”. The summary of the second report states: The Dassault Rafale is the only aircraft that has exceeded the minimum requirements expected in all operating modes”
In the end-2009 report, are taken into account modifications and improvements planned for the period between the practical flight test phase in 2008 and the planned delivery in 2015. The report ends with the request: “The Rafale produced by Dassault is proposed as the new combat aircraft of Swiss Air Force.” Best alternative to it is the Eurofighter.
[…]
eagle1One somewhat interesting precision made in this TV report by rafale test pilot about rafale AESA radar is that it offers the best radar range, even against the big Captor M. Well perhaps nothing extraordinary but it tells that rafale AESA range is already quite good as I never heard anyone complaining about Captor M poor radar range.
eagle1Nice video on the three competitors in Switzerland :
According to the former swiss air force chief of staff interviewed in the video it is rafale all the way !!! Best performer and preferred aircraft for swiss pilots. Ranking is 1) Rafale 2) Typhoon an 3) gripen.
eagle1the reason is costs :
[…]The leak of confidential reports right now is probably not a coincidence. The Federal Council must decide before the end of year which new aircraft will replace the outdated Tiger. […] Defence Minister Ueli Maurer is said to favor the Gripen because of the lower cost. So the leakage of the evaluation reports could be a disruptive action made by “interest groups” to influence the Federal Council’s decision […]
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/standard/Stoermanoever-vor-dem-Kampfjetentscheid/story/16447105
eagle1It is true. Now if we are to believe todays source as they had access to the technical reports it is probably the most accurate one.
eagle1From two days ago and from swiss newspaper “Le temps”
The Rafale
Built by the French Dassault, this jet is definitely the most capable aircraft. It is also the most expensive. Its target price is around 150 million euros [!!?]. But one must put this price into perspective The French offer offset transactions with Swiss small businesses for some 6 billion Swiss francs, a participation in research and development with the French aircraft industry. France provides also supersonic flight areas less than thirty minutes from Payerne, the opening of French bases, exchange and training of technicians and participation in development. Commissioned in 2005, the Rafale has not yet been sold abroad. But it demonstrated its abilities by supporting an important part of the operations during the conflict in Libya. It is the preferred aircraft of the Swiss pilots.
eagle1Each time it is different journos rarely the same. There is at least 15 sources all going in the same direction.
Here are some of them, check yourself the diversity :
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=109699&page=39
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