eagle1Thanks lightening, ok I think we have both made our points, I believe our respective posts give a fair view of our thoughts and it can be interesting for some. I have to go now 🙂
eagle1Don’t be so touchy, I did not want to offend you by any means. I have plenty of time for the moment because I have a 2 day-old baby who doesn’t sleep and I must keep an eye on him with my wife ;):)
If you have some specific, concrete arguments to bring about JL then go for it. Because his latest AFM tribune is clearly a Typhoon manifesto and not the work of an neutral observer…If you see what I mean. Again nothing wrong with it even if of course I disagree on the substance. Just that we should admit that he is a pro-typhoon.
eagle1I stand to my point about JL and AFM,
I read the report on Lybia and many other articles. His rare criticisms about the typhoon are superficial and just a smoke screen in pretending being balanced just like when he pretends that the rafale has some edge in some areas. He is certainly not neutral to say the least and except these rare superficial concession (program management) his profound view is pro typhoon. Yes he his a true Typhoon lobbyist, but a clever one who knows that if he looks too blatantly pro-typhoon it will affect his credibility so he must give some nuts to the other side.
I don’t blame him for having an opinion but I blame those who take him as a neutral player or when he pretends to be one.
You talk about PPrune…The last time he personally attacked test pilot Peter collins who flight tested the rafale and found it superior in some areas like the FCS. Even other british posters went against him. Each time something remotely positive is posted on the rafale he shows up…
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/408445-peter-collins-eurofighter-typhoon-2.html
I’ve been following this guy for several years and I know what I’m talking about. I believe that very little of its publication (net or AFM) have escaped to my attention so if you want to argue you will have to be very very specific.
Now the fact that AFM and JL are pro Typhoon/RAF/british is not an issue for me as long as we are frank about it. Just like I know that when I read the french magazine Air Fan I will have the good stories for the rafale this time. It is normal to favor the aircraft/air force of your country. But I believe it is important to understand who speaks to have a better understanding of the situation.
eagle1Concerning Singapore: Well, the French claim their aircraft was the better one technically and Eurofighter claimed theirs was better. Its called promoting ones self and the simple fact of the matter is, none of them won the overall competition. There were reports that the Rafale done well in A/A trials, the Typhoon was the only one to beat 3 F-16s in one go etc but again, none of them won the competition. And at the time the F-15SG had/has some rather attractive A/G capabilities that put the Typhoon and Rafale to shame while still having a credible A/A capability. So, although the decision was heavily politicle to purchase the F-15SG, at the time one could say it was a good purchase.
French sources claims it topped the technical evaluation and it was officially stated with two high profile persons (Dassault CEO and a french colonel) who have put their reputation on the balance.
Eurofighter never claimed it topped the tech eval. Jon Lake, a Typhoon/BAE activist did. That is an important difference. All the stories you bring come from his article and they were never confirmed by singapore airforce nor did he quoted anyone, nor does it represent the totality of the tests carried out.
In the end the typhoon was out before the rafale who successfully pass the tech eval along with the F15. Politics and price played in favor of the F15 in the final round. The idea that the typhoon did better despite being eliminated first is a myth with a single origin : Jon Lake. I must say that instilling this idea when it was kicked out first in the tech eval is a master piece in terms of spinning and disinformation.
You speak about AFM (I often buy it at CdG airport). It must be said that although it is an excellent magazine it has a RAF/british bias. You bring Typhoon prowess in India. Fine but to make the cut the rafale should have necessarily performed very well in certain scenarios…Why not speaking about it ?? That is not neutral in the way you present the information…
In the end it leaves the biased impression that only the typhoon impressed the gallery but to be fair the picture should be more balanced. That the same reproach I make to JL singaporean article with the 3 F16 and SC story. Fine but what about others for other scenarios ? That was certainly not the only scenario if ever it is actually true. You could make the same sensational article with the rafale or the F15 if someone intended to do so.
So clearly for me AFM/JL has endorsed the typhoon. But to be more subtle and to appear not too one sided they make some gentle concessions to pretend they are neutral in a typical hypocrite manner. In the end the good story is always for the typhoon and not for others while you can be sure that you can find the same type of good gratifying story for the rafale or others but they remain silent about it. That is “selective” informations from AFM/JL and the typhoon enthusiasts make their milk out of it.
You will never find in AFM a report about the rafale toasting the typhoon in corsica 9-1 in dogfights with all the HUD gun shots that were published in Air & Cosmos for instance…Usually they make big reports for a RAF deployments and here it was quite an important one : it was the RAF/typhoon vs the AdA/rafales and (un)surprinsigly as the result were embarrassing no headlines…
post 1513 :
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?137433-Rafale-News/page101
eagle1mrmalaya,
the only sourced checkable information indicates the rafale as the best technical perfomer, which is a broader concept than “fighter” as it includes the full range of AtA, AtG capabilities and others like recce etc…
Now if you refer to the unnamed, with no quoted source article from Jon Lake, of course as a Typhoon/BAE lobbyist he insists on its strengths speaking about its ability to SC and BVR capability leaving the impression that it is unchallenged.
Two points :
1) These allegations were never confirmed elsewhere and the sources are not named and he remains the only source about it although it can seem realistic.
2) Of course JL conveniently put forward Typhoon AtA “relative” potential edge but forget to speaks about its “relative” weaknesses especially in the AtG potential arena versus the rafale and the F15 which are arguably excellent strikers (range and payload). A competition is of course not just about AtA…So his report is biased because he insists on just some specific aspect of the competition and he doesn’t bring the full picture. And of course it is hard to take what he says for granted knowing his CV as a Typhoon/BAE activist.
Now, knowing all the limitation of such declaration on the net, I have some good professional contacts within the french defence industry (thales and dassault, those who have followed my posts over the year as arthuro probably knows it) and I can say that there are no doubts for them that the rafale did won the Singaporean technical evaluation. Dassault CEO and Moussez declaration posted above are representative of the main trend within the french industry.
eagle1Typhoon was out before the rafale and the F15SG who were the two finalists.
Your theory is a myth created by Jon Lake/Jackoniko , a BAE and Typhoon lobbyist (in an unamed article) and repeated everywhere on the net but with no named sources.
Note that at that time the rafale was not even operational in a multirole standard within the Armée de l’air so your argument about the typhoon not being mature is also valid for the rafale.
On the other hand we have two person (Moussez a french officer and Charles Edelstenne, dassault CEO) who put their reputation in the balance and speaks in the open press. Everyone (in professional circles) knows in France that rafale topped the singaporean evaluation for the tech eval.
This has been debated to death already over the years and I firmly believe that the french side has much more credibility than the typhoon competition.
If you take a bird eye view for a moment and look at the credibility of both side the answer is cristal clear.
As for Typhoon AESA and AtG weapons integration, lots of talks and declarations but very little “concrete” milestones achieved to date. I believe that there is a chance that these anouncements are more a communication spin to gain momentum in the MMRCA competition hoping for a victory and thus funding. A kind of bluff to say it more simply. I am not questioning in any way that these developments are being carried out just that it the communication might have been amplified/exagerated for commercial reasons and that the reality of testing and developping might be slower.
eagle1Well if you want to bring the singaporean technical evaluation then it advocates for the rafale 🙂 :
Moussez said that in dogfight exercises, the Rafale had outflown F-15, F-16 and F-18 opponents, and in technical and performance evaluations “we have systematically won against the F-15 and the Eurofighter Typhoon.” Yet it lost to the F-15 in competitions to sell to South Korea and Singapore. Moussez said it was outflanked in the former case on political grounds and in the latter case on costs, noting that the dollar had depreciated 30 percent over the period of the Singapore competition.
from :
Rafale, the French fighter, scrambles for export orders
By Christina Mackenzie
International Herald Tribune
Published: July 16, 2006 Paris
and from Dassault CEO :
The Typhoon, whose development also started in 1998, was fielded as an air defence aircraft in December 2005. This fighter will not have a true omnirole version (enabling, for instance, to lift and fire a cruise-missile) before the next decade.
Ever since the beginning of the decade, the Rafale has always been deemed superior to the Eurofighter« Typhoon » by the countries concerned (i.e. the Netherlands, South Korea and Singapore), whenever it has been in competition (or has been submitted to comparative evaluations) with this rival. In the Netherlands, for instance, the Rafale’s score differed by a scarce 2% from that of a « paper JSF ». A number of elements enables us to tackle the future with confidence, such as the imminent fielding, in the Air Force, of Rafale upgraded to F2 omnirole standard, the fact that a number of foreign experts recognize that the Rafale offer is superior to the Typhoon offer, and the doubts remaining about the F-35/JSF programme.
eagle1VIENNA – Austrian prosecutors suspect aircraft manufacturer EADS of having made up to 100 million euros available to lobbyists to sell its Eurofighter jets in Vienna, according to Sept. 2 media reports.
Format magazine quoted a legal document on its website, stoking the scandal surrounding a 2 billion euro Eurofighter deal concluded in 2003 that since has been plagued by corruption allegations.
“We are working on the assumption that a criminal organization was created within the EADS consortium to extract funds out of business partners by means of false contracts to make them available for corruption operations,” a prosecutor wrote in the document quoted by Format.
The affair, which has already sparked several court proceedings and the setting up of a parliamentary inquiry committee, was reignited by the arrest of a financier in Italy.
Gianfranco Laude told investigators in April that EADS assigned 84 million euros to a screen company, Vector Aerospace, with a view to bribes in Austria tied to the Eurofighter contract.
According to the prosecutor’s report, EADS made about 100 million euros available to lobbyists tasked with setting up a complex network of screen companies.
“The construction was aimed at bribing businesses and civil servants,” a court document said, ordering a wiretap on three lobbyists between June and July.
Format said investigators gleaned the information during the operation.
eagle1Continuing my first post (I mixed up with my former id), I believe the situation will be :
1) Rafale winner on L1
Already a lower flyaway price and most probably operating cost : smaller, smaller engines, less moving parts : fixed refueling probe, fixed intake, no dorsal air brake, longer airframe life span….If you add the economies on scale of the mirage 2000 upgrade the balance is even more in favor of the rafale. (+ possibility of a common fleet with the IAN)
2) ToT more or less equal but advantage rafale due to a single state partner. (easier more straitforward process and no rows between partners)
3) Typhoon wins on offsets
The weight and relative gap between the two competitors for each of these three criteria should determine who offer the best package.
eagle1lets try with a higher resolution :
eagle1Here are my rafale cockpit pics taken at the paris Airshow and one of the Patrouille de France :
(others are not very interesting as they are not professional)
eagle1you can turn it the way you want but it is wrong. Note than I am in no way saying the rafale as the biggest/best radar etc… I can just say that the whole 55cm diameter radar and 840 modules is baseless and real figures are confidential as confirmed by thales today at the Paris airshow.
eagle1ppp,
The 55cm diameter is not correct (despite one article could assert) nor the pictures released by Thales showing the AESA radar which are photoshoped. True figures are confidential. I can tell you that all this counting is senseless.
eagle1I just took the cockpit pics today. I’ll be there tomorrow and saturday as well and I will more focus on pics. I’ll post them after the paris airshow.
eagle1Just back from another day at the Paris Air-show :
Two pieces of informations/precision for today :
-The rafale does supercruise it was 100% confirmed by a rafale captain from the Provence squadron at the mindef static display. The last time he did was during a flight between St Dizier and Solenzara, Corsica. It was at 22 000 feet without any use of afterburner and with 1*1250L drop tank and 4 Micas.
-I did a tour at Thales Chalet (I have a Thales invitation). The number of modules on the released pictures is bogus. The exact number is kept confidential.
I took some rafale cockpit pictures from the Mindef site that I will post later.
Sign In
