eagle1It is not because another CEO (was it really the CEO? what was the exact formulation ?) made a mistake that automatically he should be wrong. Dassault aviation is basically making Falcon jets and rafales. It is not as if C.E. would be the CEO of EADS or LM with many different activities…And C.E is directly involved in the negociation. That is also the advantage of running a smaller structure.
Also this “edge” of being free from US components is not only related by french sources only.
.In the conversation with Jobim, however, the minister heard criticism about the transfer of technology from USA, which, according to the minister, was made by the Executive but can be changed by political pretexts by the U.S. Congress.
Jobim also criticized, in conversation with the French minister, the other competing project, the Swedish Gripen, having components of many countries which, in his opinion, hinder the negotiation of technology transfer. He insisted that “besides the price,” the technological capacity in Brazil is fundamental to the choice of new fighters. “In the French case, the transfer is not a promise, it’s reality,” said Alliot-Marie, noting that this type of trading is already underway in the Franco-Brazilian project for a submarine fleet.
http://www.fab.mil.br/portal/capa/index.php?datan=23/02/2011&page=mostra_notimpol
eagle1Scorpion,
My point is that a CEO is supposed to know perfectly the market and the competition. And this competition is not new and there are not many !
Second point this” corporate communication exercise ” is not improvised but prepared. When you stand in front of many journalists your credibility is at stake. Unlikely he would have said this without a double check…Remember that by stating this publicly he puts his credibility at stake as dassault CEO.
As someone who is directly involved in the competition you cannot dowplay his statement which is rather factual although hyperbolic. (well it is wrong or right there isn’t much room for philosophic considerations).
I think we should admit we have a limited understanding of all the elements composing a radar. I mean not just the main parts but all the supplier chain behind the Raven radar. That is typically the kind of info which is out of reach of simple forumers as we are unless you are in the business with robust sources. What do you know (or others) of all the suppliers behind the radar ? Devil are sometimes in the details.
eagle1It could be a possibility but from “Challenge” it is still quite unlikely. This is a serious business newspaper with the habbit of dealing with various technical issues on different industry sector.
The way I interprete it is some parts of the radar are subjected to US restrictions. But that doesn’t mean the whole radar is american of course. devil are in the details…
eagle1If the price isn’t really an issue as suggested in a previous report why not buying the bigger aircrafts ? This will impact poitively the punch the IAF could bring, especiually when mixed in a modern western platform.
eagle1It is not a question of being biased. This is right or wrong, and as a first tier stakeholder I don’t see him making such a mistake. Besides what would be the point lying since the decision makers can’t be fooled by such a statement if this was wrong.
And I didn’t admit rafale has US components. I just said that if there wer any then these are not sensitive which is slightly different.
As for the light vs heavy debate you can find arguments for both but at the end the choice will be for the IAF.
to scorpion:
I don’t agree with you. When you are involved for years in such a competition as a CEO you must know the Stenght&Weaknesses of your direct competitors perfectly. It is part of your job. You are not just an amateur making approximative statements.
eagle1The IAF also have plenty of light weight jets like new jags or upgraded mirages (provided the deal is signed) and the LCA coming. Even the mig 29 could be somewhat put in this category in terms of range and payload.
Indeed the IAF has quite a large type of jets in its inventory so you can twist the argument in each direction.
If they want a new aircraft for the backbone of their AF, they have to chose the level of operational performance they want. So the choice between a light jet and an heavier one is a strategic choice.
For the “american radar” you can’t say it is a mistake in the sense the hyperbolic statement was on purpose. I don’t think you can say it is a subjective POV. Either it has US parts either it has not. As a important stakeholder in this competion he must know for sure. Or he is not qualified for his job. There is no point of making misinformation/confusion as the results of the real are know by specialist that could not be fooled like this…
eagle1Loke,
You should bring the source as someone more in the know than both you and me brings this fact. It would be very unlikely from Dassault CEO to make such a mistake since he must know all the details of on going competions. (What would you exepect from an Aircraft manufacturer CEO directly involve in the competition ?)
eagle1It is smaller and single engine so it is entirely logical that it is cheaper. (about 40% less than a rafale).
But you won’t have the figher power and the range nor the retained performance with heavier loads. As shown in the lybian conflict significant sustain figher power at long range is an important factor to be effective. If you put aside the ToT or early develomment issues the choice between a lighter and a heavier aircraft depends of your level of ambition and operational capability search. For point sky-policing or light attack missions the gripen would be very relevant. But for sutsain intensive campains where you need to destroy most of your ennemy infrastructure then heavier aircrafts are more capable. (rafale, SH, F15E etc)
eagle1Loke,
There is no issues on US components as long as they are not sensitive and easily interchangeable. If ever there are some US made components in the rafale it is nothing that could prevent an export conversely to the gripen or perhaps a lesser extent the Typhoon. So it is incorrect to put these aircrafts on the same level of comparisons.
N°2 Indian purchase of US hardware wasn’t linked an high level of ToT at least not in the same category as MMRCA deal. So I think your argument that indai buy US stuff so they are not worrying of US string doesn’t work very well. Another exemple : it is not because France is buying some specific US gear (hawkeye, tankers, awacs, helfire, javelin…) that they don’t want do be independent as well techologically. Just sometimes you could not justify a indegineous development.
As for the “american radar” we understand it was during a press conference and that was hyperbolic. But that does not invalidate the fact that it has some specific US equipment that could pose a problem in terms of ToT.
eagle1@Quadbike
Dassault was merely a whistleblower. I don’t downplay the fact this story should have impact some officers “egos” when dassault decided to warn Indian MoD rather than the IAF (to what extent ? only a the very few people involved know). But remember that the cutomer is the Indian MoD while the operator is the IAF. Besides perhaps some felt offended but to generalize and say all IAF is concerned is a bit overstretched. Those corporate reflexs and inter company wars is nevertheless something to be wary of.
@Loke,
I exepcted this answer, but what do you really know about Selex radar ? Some key components might well be under US controls. Either you have a thourough list of Selex suplliers or your answer is merely speculation. Besides Charles Edelstenne certainly knows what he is talking about…In brazil ToT is still the main factor and latest declarations from Jobim after the Boeing fake leak to reuters was clear : the rafale has a clear edge in this area.
eagle1Some spice for the thread :
The F-18E/-F ‘Super Bug’ at AERO-INDIA was by the way the first ‘morphing jet’ ACIG has seen on any flightline. While first being a standard F-model from USN VFA-113 Sqn. – Indian industrialist Ratan Tata (74) flew in it – the next day it has changed into an unmarked ‘Silent Bug’ with Boeing test-pilot Ricardo Traven explaining the ‘Super Hornet International Road Map program’. Of course, the new additions like conformal fuel-tanks, laser-warners, an IRST-set intergrated below the nose and a ‘stealthy’ centreline armament-pod are not for real (yet), just mock-ups described as not offered within the MMRCA-bid. These improvements would be generally available for international customers like maybe Japan. (The later might have other problems in the meantime…)
Advertised in India this time by French AF-Cdr. Gen. Palomares, it is being ‘100% French’ and provides Dassault an edge on the issue of technology-transfer. It claims that the Rafale has an advantage over the ‘Typhoon’ or the ‘Gripen’ because unlike them it has no US-components built-in and is not subject to the mentioned US ITAR restrictions. The French government has cleared full technology transfer to India, including that of the RBE2-AA Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar and the transfer of software source-codes which would allow the IAF to re-programme any sensitive equipment if needed.
http://s188567700.online.de/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=252&Itemid=47
Charles Edelstennes during a recent press conference at Dassault HQ in St-Cloud :
The other big topic was of course the Rafale (Dassault Aviation photo). They say the F-18 Boeing now favorite in Brazil? “The F-18 aircraft is the favorit preferred by Americans for Brazil, corrects the boss of Dassault Aviation. We have no complexes vis-à-vis them, especially as the U.S. executive branch can not guarantee transfers of technologies, which require the approval of Congress. As for the Swedish Gripen NG and “they are willing to do anything to win, but they have strings attached: radar, engine and flight controls are American, so you have the authorization of United States for technology transfer.
eagle1Moreover, the Rafale has led numerous missions against the loyalist forces using AASM bombs, bombs which are also smooth, but this time guided by a laser designation system and a system designed to increase the its range by the French company Sagem. The range of this gear (40 to 50 km) allowed French aviators, during a recent raid against an SA-3 site, to decline the offer of protection offered by the U.S. Air Force, which proposed to accompany the Rafale by F-16. The French aircraft were firing their AASM far beyond the range of the SAM attack, which does not exceed 15 kilometers.
eagle1IAF set to seal $ 10 bn combat aircraft deal
New Delhi: The Eurofighter Typhoon is in combat for the first time over Libya and the Indian Air Force is watching with deep interest. The aircraft is one of six competing for the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) tender. And recent reports give the Eurofighter and the French Rafale the edge in the competition.Air Marshal PK Barbora, Ex Vice Chief of Air Staff said, “The Air Force is not looking at price. That’s not our area of concern. What we want is QRs are focussed on technical aspects, latest technology. Lot is available in the market and there is potential for future growth.”The EuroFighter and the Rafale are relatively new aircraft and in that sense, state of art. The Eurofighter entering service with six air forces in the last few years. And the Rafale in service with the French Air Force.
Air Commodore Jasjit Singh, Director, Centre for Air Power Studies said, “We’ve bought a huge amount of arms from the US already. In comparision, the last few years, hardly anything from Europe. Therefore, you could make an adjustment and spread your eggs in different baskets.”
Subtle weaknesses could rule out some of the contenders. Boeing’s F18 is huge and the IAF isn’t keen on planes that heavy. Sweden’s Gripen is deadly but India’s Light Combat Aircraft could be improved to match it. Lockheed Martin’s F-16 is also flown by Pakistan.
But, India urgently needs more fighters. The new planes will take ten years to come, even after the deal is signed. An offer for second hand planes, over and above the new ones being negotiated, could sweeten the deal.
The crucial element now, is political capital. How India can leverage the world’s biggest fighter aircraft tender for larger gains.
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/iaf-vies-for–10-bn-combat-aircraft-deal/148228-3.html
Again a report pointing for Rafale an Typhoon…Don’t know how “reflective” it is but it seems that these two aircrafts are getting momentum over the rest.
eagle1The SEM is an elegant bird…I often see it circling in the area of our vacation house in southern Brittany, sometimes late at night.
eagle1Lybia : A rafale destroys an armored vehicle at a distance of more than 55 km
A rafale from the french Air Force managed to destroy an armored vehicle dropping an A2SM munition at more than fifty-five kilometers from its target during the first day of operations.
A first in the history of French aviation, made possible through the air to ground armament modular, a stand-off munition capable to be driven long distance with remarkable accuracy. It allows the aircraft to remain out of reach of air defenses the enemy. Until now, A2SM was qualified for a distance of 50 km.
This weapon is manufactured by the French Sagem. Admittedly, its price is high, around 115,000 euros each, but it can destroy quickly much more expensive materials. A Rafale can fire up to six AASM.
Monday, April 4, 2011
Jean-Dominique Merchet
Sign In
