Creaking DoorI’ve always thought that the performance of Sea Dart was tarnished by the loss of HMS Sheffield and, to a lesser extent, by the loss of HMS Coventry (and near loss of HMS Glasgow).
There are many reasons for the poor performance of Rapier but a major flaw in the system seems to be that is was deemed so accurate that no ‘proximity’ fuse was fitted!
Creaking DoorFascinating! I would not attempt to translate this site, which I just glanced at following your link, so I’m glad you appear to be able to do so.
Translation entirely thanks to AltaVista – Babel Fish (the most useful site on the web):
http://babelfish.altavista.com/
Which of the books you mention in your helpful list, if any, contains some sort of convincing explanation/reference to that failed engagement of the 707?
From memory it is mentioned in ‘Falklands the Air War’ and ‘The Royal Navy and the Falklands War’ but, thanks to Griffiths911, the most detailed (and convincing) explanation of this engagement is contained within this thread!
Creaking DoorBombs Not Fused?
According to ‘The Fight for the Malvinas’ (Martin Middlebrook) Black Buck 7 dropped twenty-one 1000lb air-burst bombs on Stanley airfield but ‘there was some confusion in the Vulcan over the bomb-release system and the bombs failed to explode in the air but exploded on hitting the ground’.
Does anybody know what fusing would be used for 1000lb air-burst bombs and would they explode on impact if dropped ‘un-fused’?
Creaking DoorArgentine Canberra B-108 shot-down 14/06/1982
A slightly amended list (with first publication dates):
Air War South Atlantic (Ethell/Price 1983) – HMS Exeter (Sea Dart)
Task Force (Martin Middlebrook 1985) – HMS Cardiff (single Sea Dart)
Falklands the Air War (Burden et al 1986) – HMS Exeter (Sea Dart salvo plus HMS Cardiff missed with Sea Dart salvo)
The Royal Navy and the Falklands War (Brown 1987) – HMS Cardiff (single Sea Dart)
The Fight for the Malvinas (Martin Middlebrook 1989) – HMS Exeter (Sea Dart salvo plus HMS Cardiff missed with Sea Dart salvo)
One Hundred Days (Admiral ‘Sandy’ Woodward 1992) – HMS Cardiff (single Sea Dart)
Sea Harrier Over the Falklands (Commander ‘Sharkey’ Ward 1992) – HMS Cardiff (Sea Dart)
I’ve added in the two books by Martin Middlebrook which interestingly give different accounts. However in his second book he credits ‘Falklands the Air War’ (Burden et al 1986) for information regarding Argentine aircraft losses.
In ‘The Fight for the Malvinas’ Martin Middlebrook states ‘one of the Canberras was hit at a near extreme altitude of about 40,000 feet’.
Presumably here he is talking about ‘a near extreme altitude’ for the Canberra and not for Sea Dart.
Question: Why did the Mirage pilots report that they saw all those incomming SAMs? What did they see that made them think that two type 42’s had unleashed a relentless stream of Sea Dart missiles at them?
I suppose this could be put down to the ‘fog of war’ or more cynically to a wish by the Argentine pilots to make their mission seem more successful or dangerous. Alternatively it could be crude propaganda intended to make the British defences seem less effective.
http://www.exequielmartinez.com.ar/malvinas_a.htm
Basically what they seem to be saying is that ‘each Sea Dart missile costs as much as a modern military aircraft’ and that effectively they could claim to have destroyed two of them in this engagement!
Sea Dart missiles were (and are) very expensive but this must be stretching ‘claims’ to the absolute limit!
Creaking DoorSome unusual aircraft weapons in current use
The AC-130U Gunship which must surely be unique in carrying (as originally designed) air-to-air (25mm GAU-12 Gatling), ground-to-ground (105mm M102 Howitzer) and anti-aircraft (40mm L60 Bofors) weapons all at the same time!
And weren’t the RAF dropping concrete-filled practice bombs fitted with laser-guidance kits quite recently in Iraq or Afghanistan?
Creaking DoorHow about this;)
Didn’t look like a Victor to me…seemed a bit close to the ground.
Not a Vulcan…unless it’s pregnant! 😀
Creaking DoorWhy Nimrod ?
Couldn’t think of many RAF aircraft with four-wheeled main gear.
So I thought Valiant, Nimrod or VC10.
Martel had anti-shipping versions so most probably Nimrod.
Creaking DoorNimrod. 😀
Creaking DoorNot sure Geschwader, Gruppe or Staffel have a direct RAF equivalent but Stab translates to ‘staff’ and Kette to ‘flight’ (or I suppose a ‘vic’ of three aircraft in RAF terms).
So Stabskette is a flight of aircraft crewed by the senior officers of the unit.
Creaking DoorBombs Not Fused?
There seems to be some variation in accounts of the Black Buck bombing missions (Black Buck 1, 2 and 7).
Particularly that the bombs from Black Buck 2 were not fused and therefore didn’t explode (‘Sharkey’ Ward certainly makes this accusation in his book).
The bombs dropped by Black Buck 2 landed to the western end of the runway (in what would have been a perfect straddle) and post-raid photos clearly show a neat line of craters.
Curiously on the photos neither of the lines of craters for Black Buck 1 or Black Buck 2 show twenty-one bombs or anything close to that number. For years I was convinced that the Black Buck missions actually only carried eleven to fifteen bombs but every account states that twenty-one bombs were dropped on each occasion.
The bombs for Black Buck 7 were not aimed at the runway but at ‘airfield facilities’ or ‘positions south of the airfield’ and were proximity-fused to airburst and therefore didn’t leave any tell-tale craters.
Maybe this is where the ‘un-fused’ bomb theory comes from?
Black Buck 3 – Shrike missiles – cancelled.
Black Buck 4 – Shrike missiles – aborted.
Black Buck 5 – two Shrike missiles fired.
Black Buck 6 – two Shrike missiles fired (one jettisoned and one hung-up) – diverted to Brazil on return.
Creaking DoorI think it’s in ‘Vulcan 607’, though I’m not sure and don’t have my sources to hand, that the crater in the runway from Black Buck 1 was only repaired cosmetically – i.e. thrown full of rubble and hasily concreted over to give the appearance that the runway was functioning again, but actually could not have supported aircraft landing on the ‘repaired’ section. Does anyone have any confirmation or otherwise for this?.
The damage to the runway was not just a big hole. A delayed fuse, thousand pound, medium capacity bomb dropped from high altitude will cause more damage from shock wave effects than from pure blast. In this case the runway surface across a large area had been lifted and compromised. This made repairs very difficult with no dedicated equipment at hand.
I think point made here about dedicated equipment is a valid one.
As has been stated a 1000lb bomb penetrating the runway and exploding beneath will ‘lift’ large areas of the concrete runway in addition to leaving a large crater. These lifted areas around the crater could be several metres across and tilted a metre or so above the runway surface at the ‘inner’ edge.
Without heavy equipment it would be very difficult to effectively repair this damage and it is certainly more difficult than simply filling the crater with rubble and re-surfacing.
Also the craters produced in the soft peat around the airfield are big, some fifteen metres across and about five meters deep, and these would rapidly fill with water.
I think that when the British had recovered the airfield they had great difficulty in repairing the runway properly and this was in peacetime!
The other book to read, if you want a fuller picture, is Sandy Woodward’s account of the conflict.
I would agree about Sandy Woodward’s book being a very interesting account of the war from the command perspective.
Creaking DoorThe ‘cannon’ fitted to the B-25 was a 75mm! 😮
From a Sherman tank IIRC – the loader/gunner crouched in the bomb bay and loaded it by hand…
Not sure that the 75mm in the B-25 was from a Sherman tank.
I know that the ‘lightweight’ 75mm cannon developed for the B-25 was eventually adapted for use in the M24 Chaffee light tank.
If it did originate from the Sherman then that must be unique development path (tank – aircraft – tank).
…at least the Mossie Mollins Gun had an autoloading hopper!
Yes, 25 (57mm) 6-pounder rounds, fired fully automatic, in 20 seconds!
I’m surprised the Mosquito wasn’t shaken to bits in the process.
Creaking Dooryep, martel, but on what…..
Vickers Valiant. 🙂
Creaking DoorIn David Morgan’s book ‘Dangerous Skies’…
David Morgan has written a book?
Must get hold of that!
Dave’s book will also explain why Sharkey Ward’s contention, that a card formation of four Shars could have achieved the same goal, is wrong. To cause similar damage to the runway, they would to have to drop from a high enough altitude to ensure penetration but low enough for reasonable accuracy. This would have put them smack in the middle of the Roland missile envelope – a system that demonstrated it’s effectiveness a few days later on a GR3…
I thought the only ‘kill’ Roland made was the Sea Harrier of Ian Mortimer (801 Squadron) on 1st June during a recce mission South of Port Stanley.
The Argentines may have claimed more (claims that the French/German manufacturers of Roland were keen to support).
Creaking DoorA first-hand account from Stanley airfield
An interesting first-hand account from Argentine Air Force officer Major Alberto Iannariello from ‘The Fight for the Malvinas’ by Martin Middlebrook:
I was sitting in an armchair in the control tower, deep in thought, when the explosion of the first bomb suddenly shook me back to reality, and I found myself facing a red cloud which swept towards the tower, smashing all the window panes and shaking the building.
When I came round, I found myself under the armchair and I could hear Captain Dovichi moaning. He had fallen down the stairs and had badly hurt his spine.
I went outside as quickly as possible with my rifle and helmet and found a chaotic situation – people running here and there, wounded moaning, the red flashes of our anti-aircraft guns exploding in the sky, white–orange missiles…it was our baptism of fire.
According to this book three Argentines were killed by the Vulcan bombing, they were Raul Romero, Hector Bordon and Guillermo Garcia.
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